Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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stevev
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Re: Getting ready to start - Ceiling beef up question

Post by stevev »

looking good there Steve :D looks like you're really getting everything caulked up nice and air-tight. keep the pics coming!
quick, cheap or good....pick any two.
Gigalittle
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Re: Getting ready to start - Ceiling beef up question

Post by Gigalittle »

Its been a while... Just thought I would touch base and let you all know how the build is progressing. Beef up is basically done. The drywall pile is almost gone!

I am now working on soffiting and sealing the main HVAC trunks that run down the center of the basement. The plan is to seal these off and consider them outside the outer leaf. Some pics:
Boxing in Trunk.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Soundman2020
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Re: Getting ready to start - Ceiling beef up question

Post by Soundman2020 »

I LOVE progress!

Looking good...

- Stuart -
Gigalittle
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Pipe Problems

Post by Gigalittle »

Hello everyone. Well I have hit my first major stumbling block in my studio project, something that I had not anticipated, and I hope the fine folks on this board can help me come up with a creative solution...

There is a large cluster of drain pipes which penetrate from the upper floors into the studio space near the back entrance. My initial plan was to just soffit around them and seal them off behind 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, then when I complete my inner leaf ceiling I was planning to build another decoupled soffit with 2 more layers of drywall (just like the detail diagrams in Rod's book).
Basement Floor Plan Pipe Problem.jpg
Boxing in Pipes.jpg
The problem with this plan is most of these drains have cleanouts, so I figured, I would just frame rough openings around the cleanouts then use MDF instead of drywall to create removable hatches for access later, then make slightly larger MDF hatches when building the inner leaf ceiling. I went ahead and built the soffits around the pipes and even started putting some drywall in place, but then I realized most of these pipes are positioned too close to the wall. When I build my new inner wall, it will extend about 6 inches into the room, and there will no longer be enough space build a useable access panels where they are needed.
More Cleanouts2.jpg
I spoke with the town building inspector, who stated that although code requires the cleanouts be installed anywhere the drain pipes change direction, there is no code that says I cannot cover them up. He recommended that they remain accessible but that I could cover them semi permanently "at my own risk". I am going to get a second opinion on this because I actually read the code and it says they cannot be covered by any "permanent building materials" so he may have been mistaken. I would hate to build something on his say so, then have a different plumbing inspector reject it!

There are plenty of additional cleanouts located further downstream on these pipes which will end up in the ceiling of the half bath area which is outside the isolated part of the studio. If there is anyone on the board with plumbing experience I would like an opinion on the necessity making sure there is access to ALL cleanouts... If there were a clog in one of these pipes, could it be cleared by fishing something through a cleanout from the other side? How are cleanouts used anyway? How much access is needed to remove the cleanout cover? Is it done with a socket type tool, or would it be necessary to leave enough room to swing a large pipe wrench? (in which case the double access panel idea would not even work anyway)
CleanOut.jpg
Another Cleanout.jpg
I am wondering if I should tear out these soffits and start over with a different isolation approach for these pipes. Could several layers of mass loaded vinyl wrapped around the pipes serve as the outer leaf instead of a soffit with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall? If that would work, I could then build a decoupled inner leaf soffit with 2 layers of drywall with appropriately placed access panels, but I would need an opinion as to whether that would be sufficient isolation. In theory it should not make a difference if the mass is drywall or MLV as long as the mass per square foot is equal , and everything is airtight. Am I correct in this thought? Is this actually a situation where MLV (which is usually not recommended due to its cost) would actually be a more appropriate material to use?

Anyway - thanks again for reading about my issue - this has been causing me a lot of stress. I really want to come up with a solution that won't compromise the isolation and does not have the potential cause a smelly disaster down the road!
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
stevev
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Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by stevev »

hey Steve, sorry to hear you're having such a drama with this mate.
Gigalittle wrote: I went ahead and built the soffits around the pipes and even started putting some drywall in place, but then I realized most of these pipes are positioned too close to the wall. When I build my new inner wall, it will extend about 6 inches into the room, and there will no longer be enough space build a useable access panels where they are needed.
I have to say I don't quite understand why you can't build removable access panels in front of your inspection points for the outer leaf, and then build a larger access panel on your inner leaf so you can pull the outer leaf cover through the inner if you need to remove it.

perhaps i'm not understanding the issue correctly though.

all the best,

steve
quick, cheap or good....pick any two.
Gigalittle
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Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. The problem with the double soffit plan is the pipes are mostly tucked into the corner, where the ceiling meets the outer wall. I can / did frame a rough opening for each cleanout, but when I build my inside walls, and inside ceiling soffits everything will be shifted 6 inches inward, and about 4.5 inches downward (because there needs to be an air gap). Nothing will line up correctly, and there would be no way to get at the now covered up access panels - not enough room even for a skinny bloke like me to reach in and get at the cleanout cover, probably not even enough room to remove the inner access hatches.

That's why I am now leaning towards ripping out these soffits and starting over. Wondering if 4-5 layers of MLV wrapped around these pipes would do the trick. If I did that then I would only have to build one decoupled soffit for my inner leaf, and there will be no issue putting access hatches in the correct spots. Assuming 5/8" drywall is 2.2 lbs/sq foot, and MLV is about 1 lb/sq foot 5 layers of MLV should be equivalent to 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. Is this a feasible solution?

Thanks Again!
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
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Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

Yup, definitely messed up with these soffits. Should have planned this out in more detail beforehand. :oops: Took some additional measurements and realized there won't be enough headroom to frame the doorway header if I leave it as it is, so it needs to come out.

I guess I'll be doing some redundant demo work this weekend, then back to sketch up to plan it right!
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
stevev
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Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by stevev »

Gigalittle wrote:Yup, definitely messed up with these soffits. Should have planned this out in more detail beforehand. :oops: Took some additional measurements and realized there won't be enough headroom to frame the doorway header if I leave it as it is, so it needs to come out.

I guess I'll be doing some redundant demo work this weekend, then back to sketch up to plan it right!
Sorry to hear that buddy, but good on you for taking action on it now instead of trying to get around it and having trouble in the future.

all the best,

Steve
quick, cheap or good....pick any two.
Gigalittle
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Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

So it has been a very long while since my last post. I did eventually actually solve the pipe problem and the door frame clearance by replacing the swing in entry door with a glass slider. We found a product made in Australia called "SoundLag" which is essentially a foil-faced MLV with convoluted foam backing to wrap the drain pipes. This should provide a "beef up" for the pipes and also seems to deaden them nicely.

We also decided to upgrade the 1/2 bath to a full, by moving the water heater and adding a stand up shower.
New Plan.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
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Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

So I have been hard at work executing the new plan. Here is the evidence!
Sliding Door.jpg
SoundLag.jpg
SoundLag on Pipes.jpg
Fully Boxed.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
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Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 am
Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

Inner Leaf Framing Begins!
Decoupled.jpg
Framing Begins.jpg
RSIC detail.jpg
Decoupled Soffit 2.jpg
Sway Brace.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
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Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 am
Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

Needed to come up with a solution for fireblocking on the partition wall between the control room and live room. Since neither wall is connected to the outer framing except via the RSIC clips I added some blocking to narrow the gap. This was later caulked with fire rated filler, and mineral wool was stuffed into the gap.
Fireblocking Spacers.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
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Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 am
Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

I have decided to use mini-splits for heat and AC as I really do not want to lose any more ceiling height for additional trunk lines. Even so I had to redesign some of the framing to accommodate a system for fresh air. I also do not want to draw in cold air in the winter, and hot humid air in the summer so I used a 300 cfm ventilation fan mounted in a baffle box under the stairs to draw already conditioned air from our living room upstairs via flex duct, then feed into a master baffle box where it penetrates the outer leaf. I based the airflow calculation on needing 15 cfm per person and a potential occupancy of 5 people in both spaces, then doubled that figure to allow for static pressure loss in the baffles, and the flex duct runs.
Supply Fan Box.jpg
Next built inner leaf baffles for the air supply inlets. The idea is to keep the entire space under positive pressure.
Decoupled Soffit.jpg
Supply Silencer.jpg
Finally added exhaust ducts with double baffles. No fans here, just a path for the air to escape and allow flow, without compromising isolation.
Exhaust Silencer.jpg
Exhaust Silencers 2.jpg
Exhaust Silencers.jpg
From the outside all that is visible are normal exhaust vents. The air quality is greatly improved with the vent system, no more clammy feeling in the summer or stuffy C02 feeling when working in the space for an extended period - something that I had definitely noticed after completing the outer beef up and sealing.
Exhaust Outer.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 am
Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

More framing details. To clear the drain pipes and avoid more awkward soffits I decided to just lower the ceiling height in that area. This is going to give me a huge air gap for that section, which I hope will compensate somewhat for the areas with less air gap directly under the HVAC trunks.
Drop Ceiling.jpg
Mid span support with RSIC Clips...
Ceiling Support.jpg
Around support column. The other end of the lowered ceiling rests on the top sill of the inner leaf wall.
Support Column.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
Gigalittle
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 am
Location: USA - Central Massachusetts

Re: Gigalittle Studio Build Thread

Post by Gigalittle »

With the low ceiling heights I decided to go with LED recessed lighting, but to avoid creating a weak point in the inner leaf I built some "light boxes" Used 4 inch LED recessed lights from Home Depot, and built the boxes out of MDF lined with left over 5/8" drywall from the beef up to house the lights, and their junction boxes.
Light Boxes 1.jpg
Light Boxes 3.jpg
Light Boxes Ready.jpg
Last edited by Gigalittle on Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

“The problem with the world is that fools are always certain, but the wise are full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell
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