New (Small Home Studio) Build, Norway

[Gregwor]

Wow. You're working hard and I'm blown away with that 3D modeling! Fingers crossed it works. It just doesn't make sense that after mounting the speakers, you lost all that bottom end. You should have gained bottom end, not lost it!

Also, is it hard to remove your speakers from the enclosures with the Sorbothane? And what about re-installing them?

Greg

[studioNorWay]

New measurement done with new original speaker with amp mounted on the back.
I did not mount this with Sorbothane. Just wanted to make a reference measurement.

Find attached mdat file below.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C27Lk ... er9UD0rYpB

I added the last left speaker measurement in the file for comparison with new speaker vs speaker with concrete and outside mounted amp.
As you can see below its quite a difference.

left_w_ampVS_rigtht_w_concreet.jpg

Previous measurements

• 1. First measurement
  Treatment: None
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 45#p148378
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aLSah ... WIHeCV7K8R
  
  2. Second measurement.
  Treatment: Soffit mounted speaker ( + concrete block added in speaker for weight ), ceiling cloud and side wall slats.
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 90#p152103
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WnNAl ... vEPFTKL7gM
  
  3. Third measurement.
  Treatment: Removed concrete block from right side speaker.
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 90#p152142
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C27Lk ... er9UD0rYpB

-bjorn-

[studioNorWay]

Wow. You're working hard and I'm blown away with that 3D modeling! Fingers crossed it works.

Thanks Greg. I just want to get this over with so I’m working as much as I can:). I’m glad you like the modeling. Just a few tweaks now and I’m going to print it. I hope it works as well.

It just doesn't make sense that after mounting the speakers, you lost all that bottom end. You should have gained bottom end, not lost it!

I don’t know Greg. This kind of things is not quite my area of expertise. Hopefully the fixes that are now being done will fix this. Check out the last measurement I did with the originale speakers (back mounted amp)

Also, is it hard to remove your speakers from the enclosures with the Sorbothane? And what about re-installing them?

Yes, I use some time taking them out from the enclosures with the Sorbothane. I think I used about one hour for each enclosure taking them out. I used about two hours installing them back in each enclosure again. What takes time (for me anyway) is that I must take out each Sorbothane one by one to be able to get the speaker out. The Sorbothane is quite sticky and while compressed they are a bit hard to get out. When installing them back again I must do the same (one by one Sorbothane in the right place and make sure they are right compressed.). Anyway, I found a good tool that was quite handy for installing each Sorbothane bit in the right place. The god old “Extra-Long kitchen Tweezer Tongs”. This will be my third time I install them in the enclosure again so hopefully it will be the last for these speakers anyway. If you have other / better tips and tricks in regards of installing the Sorbothane just let me know.

tweezer.JPG

-Bjorn-

[TomessAI]

New measurement done with new original speaker with amp mounted on the back.
I did not mount this with Sorbothane. Just wanted to make a reference measurement.

I added the last left speaker measurement in the file for comparison with new speaker vs speaker with concrete and outside mounted amp.
As you can see below its quite a difference.

There must be something wrong with your measurement. The concrete block should only affect the bass, not the frequencies the tweeter is radiating. You loose nearly 10 dB over the wohle spectrum...

[studioNorWay]

New measurement done with new original speaker with amp mounted on the back.
I did not mount this with Sorbothane. Just wanted to make a reference measurement.

I added the last left speaker measurement in the file for comparison with new speaker vs speaker with concrete and outside mounted amp.
As you can see below its quite a difference.

There must be something wrong with your measurement. The concrete block should only affect the bass, not the frequencies the tweeter is radiating. You loose nearly 10 dB over the wohle spectrum...

Thanks for the feedback. I will check

[studioNorWay]

Status: Have been occupied with other stuff but have now started the print.

Heat sink in progress

IMG_7736.jpg

[studioNorWay]

3d print of amp finished. I would say that’s close enough. Let the Assembly begin.

IMG_7756.JPG

IMG_7753.JPG

[studioNorWay]

Hi everyone.
Ok, so have finally finished mounting the speakers back in place. Also, now with the right tension on all the Sorbothane. When testing the actual sound, I can hear allot more base coming from the speakers so hopefully the 3d print did the trick. Let’s hope the measurement does the same. In regard to the last measurement (forth) the had to be something wrong with the settings on my sound lever meter when setting up the calibration. That’s the only explanation I could find. So, I marked that measurement as a faulty one. This time I have doubled check everything so hopefully everything I correct setup on this measurement. Any help/tips in regard to analysing the measurement will be highly appreciated.

Find attached mdat file below.

Fifth measurement

• Treatment:
  Added 3d printed amp inside the speaker box.
  Added slab of insulation horizontally across the slats at the mix height
  -------------------------------------------------------------------
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CyxJy ... BRj1dZnCz9
  -------------------------------------------------------------------
  IMG_7789.JPG

Previous measurements

• 1. First measurement
  Treatment: None
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 45#p148378
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aLSah ... WIHeCV7K8R
  
  2. Second measurement.
  Treatment: Soffit mounted speaker ( + concrete block added in speaker for weight ), ceiling cloud and side wall slats.
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 90#p152103
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WnNAl ... vEPFTKL7gM
  
  3. Third measurement.
  Treatment: Removed concrete block from right side speaker.
  post: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 90#p152142
  mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C27Lk ... er9UD0rYpB

[Gregwor]

Crazy. I'm kind of at a loss here. Your SPL issue hasn't really been resolved. Either has your reflection issue. However, strangely the time domain response has improved!

Does anyone else have any other suggestions short of just buying a sub woofer!?!

The insulation didn't seem to fix the issue. For sure the panel holding the lights in your cloud isn't the cause of that reflection (I know you went hardcore with the string trick and appeared to do everything correctly)?

I hate to see you work so damned hard and do everything correctly and still not see great results. I'm sorry!

Lastly, how are you feeling about the short time domain response of the room?

Greg

[studioNorWay]

Crazy. I'm kind of at a loss here. Your SPL issue hasn't really been resolved. Either has your reflection issue. However, strangely the time domain response has improved!

Yes, its crazy. And it a bit weird that there is no change because I hear more base than before. Is there a chance that my measurements are bad?
Could you give some example print screens from the room EQ. just for my curiosity? I’m still a bit confused how you guys find some of this stuff in the graphs and I really want to learn.

The insulation didn't seem to fix the issue. For sure the panel holding the lights in your cloud isn't the cause of that reflection (I know you went hardcore with the string trick and appeared to do everything correctly)?

Here will be the same as above. How to you see in the EQ tool that there is still reflection and where. What I could do is try to do multiple measurement and recheck the results as I move along the string and use isolations on various point until I find the spot that is casing the issue. Then do measurements again. Eventually I must find the spot?

I hate to see you work so damned hard and do everything correctly and still not see great results. I'm sorry!

No worries my friend. It is not your fault. It is probably something weird I have done wrong. We will crack this mystery eventually. “Easy and straight forward” - What’s the fun in that?

Lastly, how are you feeling about the short time domain response of the room?

Do you mean the low decay time? I know Stuart was shooting for about 250 in my room. It was initially about 150. We added allot more reflection surfaces. And I know he also planned that we should do more reflection in the cloud. I think in the initial drawings he added solid surface in both my clouds. But I did it with insulation only. I could add solid surface to try to increase the time even more. The room feels ok and WAY better then before I started the with the room threetment.

Thanks again Greg for helping me out. You rock!

-Bjorn-

[Gregwor]

Is there a chance that my measurements are bad?

Doubtful.

Could you give some example print screens from the room EQ. just for my curiosity? I’m still a bit confused how you guys find some of this stuff in the graphs and I really want to learn.

Sure! Here is your LR SPL for your second measurement and your latest (5th). The blue is the 5th measurement.

Blue is latest.png

Here will be the same as above. How to you see in the EQ tool that there is still reflection and where.

You should aim to have no reflection above 20dB. I've cross haired the culprit on your right speaker 5th measurement.

Reflection.png

What I could do is try to do multiple measurement and recheck the results as I move along the string and use isolations on various point until I find the spot that is casing the issue. Then do measurements again. Eventually I must find the spot?

Do you mean the low decay time?

Yes. Right now you're averaging around 100ms only! But, I know your room is pretty small. Can you go dump your dimensions into Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator and see what the RT60 says just for fun?

100ms.png

Greg

[jonkr]

You would probably need a sub with those speakers regardless of how they're mounted if you want to get a full picture of the entire audible spectrum.

Does the plastic amp print weight the same as the real amp? My guess is no. Maybe the lower density could be having an effect on how the speaker box is responding?

Have you contacted Presonus before attempting to soffit mount these monitors? Chances are that you're either the only or one of very few to ask about flush mounting that monitor and they won't really be sure if you can flush mount it or not. But it couldn't hurt to ask and maybe even ask to speak to an engineer and maybe get some useful info.

You may have answered this already but was there a particular acoustical reason that Stuart suggested removing the amps from box? I've seen threads where he and John Sayers have done it with success but plenty others where it wasn't necessary. Is it really "necessary" in this design or is it just a luxury? Maybe keeping the amp in the box would be the way to go.

I wouldn't worry so much about the short decay response as I would worry about even/equal response time across the frequency spectrum. If I recall correctly Thomas Jouanjean posted a spectogram on Gearslutz with the decay barely touching 200ms down to around 30hz and most people agree that his rooms are about as good as it gets. This is a very small room so I think a sub 200ms decay would be expected in order to achieve an even decay.
My guess is that Stuart figured that extending lower mid/mid/upper decay times to match the low end decay times in this particular room would be more achievable than trying to control the lows without the necessary space. In the end only testing can really tell.

Sorry if some of these questions have already been explored. Just trying to give you some ammo to move forward. I know how it feels to work hard and then get stuck!

[studioNorWay]

Hi jonkr

Thanks a lot for commenting.

You would probably need a sub with those speakers regardless of how they're mounted if you want to get a full picture of the entire audible spectrum.

Yes, I have started to realize that myself. But I have decided to change the speakers. Enough is enough. I am using the studio space now. Getting to know it. And I love the place. The feeling of using it finally after all these years is great. And it sounds nice considering. I have started the research and will use some time to find and save cash for the right speakers.

Does the plastic amp print weight the same as the real amp? My guess is no. Maybe the lower density could be having an effect on how the speaker box is responding?

Yes, it does. This part I did right. Not all the parts are 3d printed. The back plate is thick aluminum and the some of the other parts like the transformer I have used materials to match the sum weight.

Have you contacted Presonus before attempting to soffit mount these monitors? Chances are that you're either the only or one of very few to ask about flush mounting that monitor and they won't really be sure if you can flush mount it or not. But it couldn't hurt to ask and maybe even ask to speak to an engineer and maybe get some useful info.

Yes, I did talk to Persons and they said, “hell no”. Put that was after Stuart said otherwise and left the forum leaving me stuck.

You may have answered this already but was there a particular acoustical reason that Stuart suggested removing the amps from box? I've seen threads where he and John Sayers have done it with success but plenty others where it wasn't necessary. Is it really "necessary" in this design or is it just a luxury? Maybe keeping the amp in the box would be the way to go.

Yes, he wanted me to remove them so that the amp would be available to edit settings. He said that it was a bad idea to leave them on as you could not edit settings on them. He said that he normally took them out / rewired them and placed them in the front. He also said that it would cause a weight issue and I needed to add concrete blocks in them to compensate but that story is already explained in details in earlier posts.

I wouldn't worry so much about the short decay response as I would worry about even/equal response time across the frequency spectrum. If I recall correctly Thomas Jouanjean posted a spectogram on Gearslutz with the decay barely touching 200ms down to around 30hz and most people agree that his rooms are about as good as it gets. This is a very small room so I think a sub 200ms decay would be expected in order to achieve an even decay.
My guess is that Stuart figured that extending lower mid/mid/upper decay times to match the low end decay times in this particular room would be more achievable than trying to control the lows without the necessary space. In the end only testing can really tell.

That is what Stuart said as well. He was shooting for 200 if I remember correctly. And I am ok with that.

Sorry if some of these questions have already been explored. Just trying to give you some ammo to move forward. I know how it feels to work hard and then get stuck!

That is perfectly fine. I really appreciate getting feedback and tips. Keep them coming.

I will continue the tuning as soon as I have changed the speakers. In the meantime, I’m a musician again.

IMG_8080.jpg

[Gregwor]

I do agree with Stuart that those speakers should work fine soffit mounted. I do not agree with the concrete block in them though. I'm glad to hear that you're using the room and enjoying it after all of your hard work!

What speakers are you going to get?

Greg

[studioNorWay]

What speakers are you going to get?
Greg

I have not decided yet. I have started to look around but have not used much time yet with the details. I was thinking maybe starting a new thread on the forum for some monitor discussions for my studio or maybe having a discussing on this thread. Anyway, if you or anyone have any suggestions for new speakers let me know. The price range should be between approx. 500 – 2000 $. And should have the possibility to detach the amp for wall mount.

Bjorn