John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

hi all! my name is Jim, I would like to thank John and all the moderators, posters and contributors for this great site! Between reading some of Ron's book and researching on here I believe I'm getting close to getting a game plan for my studio build, but first some background…

My wife and I (kids too) were lucky enough to buy our dream home last June here in Florida. apart from all the other things we love about the house, it came with an unfinished 850 ft.² building at the rear of the property with a gravel driveway. we are out in the country away from any trains, but we are 1 mile away from a busy interstate highway that I can hear from my porch and inside the building, somewhat (along with the crickets) which will house the studio.
here are the dimensions:
Studio size
Ceilings 10’10’’
Sides 28’4’’
Front to back 29’5’’ we are on an acre and a quarter lot with an empty lot behind us. I currently have my studio in the front home with a drum set, three panel vocal booth with reflexion filter using ProTools 10 with the TC konnekt 48 and some decent out board preamps, Mic's etc.,

in the new studio I will be tracking loud live drums, recording and reamping loud guitar amps, recording live rock bands, having loud band practices , mixing with mackie monitors hr624 and a sub... things will be busy back there... I numbered the questions below, these are the things I can't seem to find out with my research..

when looking at the picture named garage 1 there is a door in the corner to the right which is set about 2 feet back from the front where the white garage doors are. looking at the picture named garage 3 you can see the other door at the back of the building which is also pictured in garage 4 from the outside. I have the sprinkler system equipment to the right of that door and in considering putting the machine room for storage in that corner. with all the commercial lawn cutting that goes on in this neighborhood and nearby interstate I am wondering whether to go for the double stud wall room within a room concept in order to keep it quiet in there,

the other option would be to install insulation in the walls and ceilings
1. would I still need to insulate the walls and ceilings if I was building a room within a room like that??

1.5 (would be tempted to blow insulation in to seal any potential spots air and sound could leak from} and use the genie or whisper clips or whatever, tracks and drywall/green clue/drywall. thoughts??

2. If I didn't go for the double walls and used insulation, clips and drywall would I be able to put additional windowpanes (laminated) along the studs that house the current Windows?

the benefits of this would be more square footage, not sure about cost, I can help a craftsman with the buildout but would need to pay for labor as I haven't done anything along these lines before. but I would still have to do something about the front wall which has those three metal garage doors which I don't plan on taking out although I would cut the tracks out on the inside and build a stud wall (or 2) if necessary across the front. Concerned about sound leakage mostly on the front, left and back sides, the right side has a long way to go to the neighbor's property, across our property and through some natural landscaplng. was considering putting the control room in the back right corner pictured in garage 3 as I would have a separate entrance/exit in case the main room was being used for a rehearsal.


I would like to have a control room, a small vocal booth that can double as an amp isolation room and leave the rest as open as possible for full bands to play together. There are concrete floors which I plan to strip of the paint and acid etch/stain.


3. There are two windows which provide natural light, might be hard to keep if I do the double stud walls??


4. I was planning to build a wooden drum riser possibly with the rubber U-boats to decouple it from the floor (is this necessary??)

need HVAC and electric, there is a panel in there now, run from a 90 W breaker from the house panel which is 200 Amp total

5. would I need to upgrade to a 300 Amp service? We have a pool pump that runs a few hours each day and ac in the house of course which runs a lot here in Florida ; )

The budget is $10,000 to $12,000 or more if i have too....any help or suggestions are much appreciated and thanks in advance to everyone who contributes!

Hi Jim. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

My wife and I (kids too) were lucky enough to buy our dream home last June here in Florida. apart from all the other things we love about the house, it came with an unfinished 850 ft.² building at the rear of the property with a gravel driveway.

Excellent! Looks like a great potential space for a studio, and a very decent size, too.

but we are 1 mile away from a busy interstate highway that I can hear from my porch and inside the building,

What type of noise do you hear? Is it more like the "swish" of tires and cars moving through air, or do you hear more "low rumble" of heavy engines, trucks, etc? How loud is it? You'll need a sound level meter anyway for your build, so you might as well get one now, and do some measurements. They aren't expensive: a decent one will cost you around US$ 75 to 100 on e-bay or amazon.com (just avoid the cheap Chinese rubbish for US$ 25!).

Ceilings 10’10’’

Excuse me while I drool.... and turn green with envy.... ! Most home studio builders would kill to have such ceilings in there places.

in the new studio I will be tracking loud live drums, recording and reamping loud guitar amps, recording live rock bands, having loud band practices , mixing with mackie monitors hr624 and a sub... things will be busy back there...

So we are looking at interior levels around 110 dBC to 120 dBC? It would still be good to measure that (with your new sound level meter!), to get more accurate numbers. You'll need those numbers in deciding on your target for the amount of isolation, which directly dictates the type of construction and materials you'll need.

with all the commercial lawn cutting that goes on in this neighborhood and nearby interstate I am wondering whether to go for the double stud wall room within a room concept in order to keep it quiet in there,

Probably yes, but once again, that sound level meter will reveal the truth.

There are also other things that you might want to consider when deciding on your isolation: Wind, rain, hail, thunder, aircraft and helicopters flying over, etc. Also cars arriving/leaving, people talking, cell phones ringing, and even the plumbing in the building. Etc.

the other option would be to install insulation in the walls and ceilings
1. would I still need to insulate the walls and ceilings if I was building a room within a room like that??

It's a very common misconception that insulation stops sound: it does not. It is great acoustically, for many things, but by itself, it cannot and will not stop sound. The easiest way of understanding this is to consider the kitchen sponge. It is great at mopping up water that spilled someplace you didn't want it, but if you hold it across the end of the tap, it will not stop the water running out. Insulation is to sound as sponge is to water: great for "mopping up" sound that spilled somewhere you didn't want it, but useless for stopping sound going in or out.

Yes, insulation can be used to good effect as part of an isolation system, but buy itself it is useless in that respect.

In other words, just filling those stud bays with insulation will do nothing at all to decrease the amount of sound entering or leaving your room. It will make the room sound much better internally, but won't do anything much to isolate the room.

So you still need to add the inner "leaf" to your place to get isolation. The only question is how to add it: directly on the same studs, or by using isolation clips, or on separate studs. Your friend the sound level meter will help you decide...

1.5 (would be tempted to blow insulation in to seal any potential spots air and sound could leak from} and use the genie or whisper clips or whatever, tracks and drywall/green clue/drywall. thoughts??

Blown-in insulation is generally not recommended for studios, since there is the potential for it to leave unnoticed voids in some places, and also to "bunch up" in others, causing "bridges" or "flanking paths" between the leaves. It is generally better to use traditional fiberglass or mineral wool, either as batts or rolls, to ensure that you get even coverage, with no gaps and no bridges.

2. If I didn't go for the double walls and used insulation, clips and drywall would I be able to put additional windowpanes (laminated) along the studs that house the current Windows?

I'm just wondering if there might be some confusion here: you don't need double walls: You only need double-leaf walls: You already have the outer leaf, and it looks to be in good condition, so all you need to do is to add the inner leaf. If you are going to build several rooms in there, then each one is built as a single leaf, so that you end up with two leaves (and only two) between any two adjacent rooms, as well as between any room and the outside world. If you are going with several rooms, then your outer leaf is already finished! All you need is one new frame plus drywall per room. If that's the case, then forget the clips-and-hat-channel approach.

OK, so back to your question: if you decide to create your two-leaf system by putting the second leaf on the existing studs, but with isolation clips and hat channel (or with no clips and resilient channel), then you can also do two-pane windows by adding a second pane behind the existing pane, with as much air gap between the two as you can get, and sealing them both as well as possible. That greatly improves isolation, but obviously not nearly as much as doing that inner-leaf on a separate stud frame, in which case the second pane of glass goes into the second frame, not the existing frame.

the benefits of this would be more square footage, not sure about cost,

There's actually not much difference in costs. Sure, you have to buy all those 2x4 studs to do it as a separate decoupled leaf, and that costs money, but RSIC clips and hat channel are not cheap either. The final cost is not hugely different. But the isolation you get from the proper stud frame is much greater, and if you use Johns "inside out" technique for building those inner-leaf walls, then you don't lose much space either. However, with 800 plus square feet of space, I'd say that losing space is the very least of your problems! You have way more than needed to build a really great studio.

but I would still have to do something about the front wall which has those three metal garage doors which I don't plan on taking out although I would cut the tracks out on the inside and build a stud wall (or 2) if necessary across the front.

That's the right way to do it: Fix them in place permanently, remove the interior hardware, seal them up, then build a stud frame a few inches back with plywood/drywall, to complete the outer-leaf. Then build your inner-leaf rooms within that.

Concerned about sound leakage mostly on the front, left and back sides,

Unfortunately, low frequency sound (which is the hardest to isolate) is not directional, and simply wraps around objects that are smaller than its own wavelengths. With wavelengths measured on the dozens of feet, those lows will easily wrap around form one side if your building to the other. So soundproofing just some sides of your rooms is not an option: sound just takes the easiest path out through the "weakest" wall, then wraps around to the other sides anyway. So isolation is an "all or nothing" situation: All four walls and the ceiling must be done to the same level. So must the windows, doors, HVAC and electrical systems.

I would like to have a control room, a small vocal booth that can double as an amp isolation room and leave the rest as open as possible for full bands to play together. There are concrete floors which I plan to strip of the paint and acid etch/stain.

OK, so it is basically four rooms you want: CR, iso booth, machine room, and a large LR. What about office, bathroom, lounge, storage?

3. There are two windows which provide natural light, might be hard to keep if I do the double stud walls??

You can keep them, and you only need single-stud walls anyway, since one leaf is already there: the existing building shell is your outer leaf.

4. I was planning to build a wooden drum riser possibly with the rubber U-boats to decouple it from the floor (is this necessary??

)Drum riser: yes. U-boats: no. The drum riser is a good idea, as it deals with the direct impact noise, and stops it getting into the floor. That probably isn't really an issue for your place, but if it is then a very simple and very effective drum riser can be built from a couple of panels of OC-703 with some sheets of 3/4" plywood on top. There are designs for how to do that here on the forum. But I would suggest that you leave that decision for later: After the studio is built, see how well it works with drums, and if there is a problem, then build the riser. Or build it anyway, as it just looks cool!

need HVAC and electric, there is a panel in there now, run from a 90 W breaker

I think you mean "90 A", not "90 W"!!

5. would I need to upgrade to a 300 Amp service?

I doubt it. 90 amps is plenty for what you need. Even assuming a massive HVAC system, you should still be fine. But to be certain, call in an HVAC guy to give you an estimate on the type of unit you'll need, and see what the power requirements are for that size unit. I doubt that it will be more than about 30 amps, if that. So unless you plan to have a major lighting system and enough equipment to eclipse Pink Floyd, you should be fine on 90 amps.

The budget is $10,000 to $12,000 or more if i have too....

Probably on the low side. For 800 ft2, that's only about US$ 15 per square foot. And you aren't planning to do all the work yourself, so you'll be paying the full contractor rate for most of the work. To get an idea of how much this is likely to cost you, in real terms, call a couple of local contractors and ask for their flat rate per square foot for converting an unfinished garage into a home theater. That's roughly what it will cost, realistically.

But you sure do have a great space there, the beginnings of an excellent studio! I'm looking forward to watching this go up.

- Stuart -

Hi Stuart
Just wanted to check back in actually finished up this studio and have been open for business since last December!!!
Slowly getting more clientele, thanks for your post got so caught up in the build etc didn't get back but appreciated
your suggestions and yes it ran a lot more and yes I ended up doing more of the work than I thought I would or could!!
went room within a room and exchange chambers on the neighbors side to keep the noise down and be able to use window
AC units to keep the price down, After buying all the ducting and the quiet exhaust fans it still added up! Built the room
treatment and superchunks etc as you can see here in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExbAXrbQ8Y
quite the learning experience, thank God I am back to making music and Engineering now
Cheers!
Jim