John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello John L Sayers Players, and greetings from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

I've lurked on and off for a while around this great forum, but I have finally signed up with an account!

I am posting today, as while I am trying to learn this stuff on my own, I would really appreciate the opinion and feedback from you fine folks around the acoustic treatment challenges I'm having in my room.

My Studio:
I have a small home studio with seperate live and mix rooms. I've got some acoustic treatment in the live room (I needed to put in to tame it), but have been delaying doing any in the mix room (I'm still learning, remember! ). Anyway; I really want to improve the tuning of the mix room as is, in an effort to improve mixes, hear mix placement differences more effectively, etc.. I wish to use 'reusable' items (ie. panels) that can be removed from the space into a new studio once the day comes. As mentioned, this studio is in a basement of a detached house; soundproofing in the live room is complete, and so sound isolation is really not an issue.

Some general information:
-Ceiling height is 88"
-The floor is raised off of the concrete through a frame sitting on isosil rubber strips to reduce vibration to the ground (flooring material is hardwood)
-Drywall construction
-Window in room looks into the live room and is 2 x panes, one of which is angled
-Ceiling has track lighting the the middle
-Ceiling has an HVAC grate 2ft from the front wall, centred width wise

I have tried my best to pink the room to figure out my problem frequencies...however I'm new to that too, and so I tried it with 2 different pre-amps (a Tube MP the first/louder time, and an API the 2nd). I used a Beringer RTA mic, sitting in the listening position. I have included a screen capture of my readings.

What I'm thinking:
I think that I should start by just trying to reduce reflection points...
-Curtain over window (any suggestions re: fabric?)
-Absorber (54"x28") on back wall
-Absorber (54"x28") on side wall
-Absorber (54"x28") on ceiling
-Bass trap panel (54"x28") angled from wall to ceiling on front wall (behind the desk)

Acoustic Product I'm looking at:
Looking at using Forward Acoustics panels where possible, as I have their stuff in my live room, they're local, and I don't have the time to source the parts to make my own.

Sooo there you have it! I've attached a few photos that I think are helpful to tell the story of my room.

Questions:
-Am I on the right track?
-What should I use for the curtains? (velour)
-What would you do differently?

I welcome any and all suggestions you have!

Thanks for your time!

--Jamie.

I think that I should start by just trying to reduce reflection points...

I would suggest that you start by re-arranging the room to make it symmetrical! Without symmetry you'll never be able to get your mixes to translate, no matter how you treat the room.

From that diagram, your left ear is maybe 20-something inches from the left room boundary, while your right ear is over 60 inches from the right boundary! Not only that, but you have a highly reflective wall-to-floor boundary on your left, while on the right the bottom third of the wall is taken up my a sofa. And to really mess things up, you have that 14" deep asymmetrical alcove in front of you.

You also have your speakers firing across the short axis of the room (instead of down the long axis), and your head seems to be almost exactly at 50% of room depth (front to back). Basically, you are in the worst possible location in that room, from the modal point of view.

There's no way you can ever fix that layout with treatment. It must be really hard to mix at all in that environment. Symmetry is critical, at least for the front half of the room.

I'd strongly suggest that you need to rotate the setup either 90° left or 90° right, move one of those doors to accommodate the new setup, and only THEN start thinking about treatment. Trying to cure the problem in that room as it is right now with treatment would be like trying to put out a forest fire with a thimble of water: no noticeable effect.

To me, it seems that your best bet is to rotate the layout 90° to the right, move the "entrance from hallway" door several feet back (to be opposite the alcove), then set up your desk, speakers and chair correctly in that location, properly centered for perfect left-right symmetry.

You also need to get those speakers off the desk and onto proper massive decoupled stands behind the desk. They way you have them set up now you are undoubtedly getting reflections off the angled console surfaces, and the speakers themselves are certainly transmitting sound into the desk itself, so you might even be getting early sound arriving at your ears from that BEFORE the direct sound from the speakers.

There's also a clear issue with the window to the live room: the glass is severely angled there, with the bottom of the outer pane nearly touching the bottom of the inner pane: You won't get much isolation like that! If you can, I'd suggest that you fix that, if isolation is important to you.

I have tried my best to pink the room to figure out my problem frequencies...however I'm new to that too, and so I tried it with 2 different pre-amps (a Tube MP the first/louder time, and an API the 2nd). I used a Beringer RTA mic, sitting in the listening position. I have included a screen capture of my readings.

That's interesting, but it only shows a small part of the possible room issues: it only deals with the frequency domain issues, which are commonly not the biggie in small rooms. Most of your issues will be in the time domain, which you cannot measure with a simple spectral display of a sine sweep or pink noise. Go to the Home Theater Shack website and download "REW" (Room EQ Wizard). It's free. Run that on your room, and post the resulting data file here. You'll start to see where the REAL problems are, and they won't be in the frequency domain.

By the way, if you are getting that much difference in response from two different pres in the same room with the mic in the same position, then it looks like one of your pres is broken! There are major difference in there. But most likely that is due to not having the mic in the exact same location for the two readings.

Anyway, that would be my approach: rotate the room, move the door, get your symmetry and geometry correct, then measure the room with REW. Based on that we can help you decide what treatment you'll need and where to put it.

- Stuart -

Stuart -- thank you very much for the great reply.

You've given me a lot to think about! I feel a bit limited in terms of what I can do to incorporate your suggestions (which is frustrating, as I desperately want to improve the space, and what your saying makes a ton of sense!).

The door locations, etc. are all unmovable because the space is constructed already. This means that I can't really accomplish what you've suggested in terms of moving doorways.

With the room shape as it is, and my limitations in how I can change the layout of the room, it makes me think that I will never in fact be able to get a suitably balanced room in this space. I am thinking that maybe I could move the door into the live room to open INTO the live room (instead of pull into the mix room); this might give me more of an option to rotate 90 degrees left, put the monitors on stands, and build a smaller desk...but even then it means scraping the desk I've built, and pushing into the door way with a monitor stand (forcing people to have to walk around it).

ALSO...just to add to my original post, I should reiterate that I wanted to make any acoustic treatment additions movable, as this mix room is not my "forever" studio. That is to say; the setup is in the basement of my parents home, and I hope to (in the next 1-2 years) move it into a commercial space, or into an outbuilding on my property...hence why I was hoping to just improve things with some acoustic treatment...but it sounds as though I just won't be able to make things "better" enough.

Thank you again for your comments...

I feel a bit limited in terms of what I can do to incorporate your suggestions

I hope I didn't lay it on too thick, and scare the hell out of you! I tend to be a bit "in your face" sometimes, pointing out things I happen to notice but without any sugar-coating. Sorry 'bout that!

it makes me think that I will never in fact be able to get a suitably balanced room in this space.

well, it won't be perfect, but it sure can be made a LOT better than it is now. There is hope, so don't go jumping under a train or something...

I am thinking that maybe I could move the door into the live room to open INTO the live room (instead of pull into the mix room); this might give me more of an option to rotate 90 degrees left, put the monitors on stands, and build a smaller desk

that makes a lot of sense, actually. It is your second-best option (after turning right).

and pushing into the door way with a monitor stand (forcing people to have to walk around it).

How about replacing that with a 32 inch door, instead of that 38"? That would give you an extra six inches in the center. Relatively easy to do, as well. Especially if you are planning to switch the sense of the door opening: it is hardly any additional work to that. Probably no more than a one-day job to do that.

I wanted to make any acoustic treatment additions movable, as this mix room is not my "forever" studio. That is to say; the setup is in the basement of my parents home, and I hope to (in the next 1-2 years) move it into a commercial space, or into an outbuilding on my property...hence why I was hoping to just improve things with some acoustic treatment...

No problem there: all of the treatment can be made "portable". The acoustic panels that you will need can very easily be hung from simple french cleats on the walls, or even done using the even more basic "hook and wire" approach. Some could possibly be free-standing. All of them can be movable: not an issue.

but it sounds as though I just won't be able to make things "better" enough.

I don't agree! I think you sure can make things "better enough"! And I also think you won't realize how much better they can be, until you do it. Compared to your current setup, it will be heaven...


- Stuart -

Not too "thick" at all; this is why I posted here; to learn from people that know this stuff!

OK...so I've been thinking on it a bit; and I've concluded that it actually might be better to turn the OTHER door around, so that I could potentially turn to the right as you've suggested that's best.

What that then raises however is the question of my desk... As you can see from the photos, I build a desk with 28U of space in order to rack all my gear. This has made for a large desk, and I can really only use it, if I move things around this way if I push it into the corner (Possibility 3)...at that point I'm assuming you'd tell me that I've messed up the symmetry and that I am no further ahead. Furthermore; the way the speakers sit are likely not helping in this scenario either...I would still need to get some separate stands or suspend them from the ceiling or something.

This means; perhaps I should look at building a new desk.

Possibility 1: move everything into rack space behind the desk, only have my summing mixer and amp for the NS10s on/near the desk. NS10's move to stands. Note; this also would let me move to a dual LCD monitor setup. The couch leaves the space entirely.

Possibility 2: discussed above. No desk rebuild needed; however some creative cabling will be required (as I'd be moving ALL the gear away from the conduit entrance from the live room).

Possibility 3: slight rebuild; this option suggests that the desk is modified to have the 2 14U rack spaces compressed (next to each other), LCD monitors sitting on top, and NS10's sitting on seperate stands. This may be not as ergonomic, but would be easily enough accomplished. The creating cabling issue discussed in Possibility 2 would be an additional thing to figure out here too.

Soooo there you have it. This is where my thinking has brought me this afternoon.

Of those 3 possibilities; which would YOU suggest as the best? Is there a configuration I haven't thought of that you would advise me to? (ie. securing LCD's to the wall with a super minimal desk?)

If I'm getting warmer to a winning layout, then I would love to start talking recommended acoustic treatment.

Thanks again for your time!

...I just noticed that the photo's posted in order 3, 2, 1... So; even though they're labelled correctly; I just wanted to point that out to avoid any confusion!

Cheers!

#2 is out: Just like you guessed; no symmetry. It really is important to have symmetry, at least for the front half of the room. The back is not so critical, but the front is paramount.

#3 places your head way too far back in the room (bad for numerous reasons, acoustically speaking), plus it means your clients would have to sit with their feet on the couch and their knees under their chins!

So it looks like #1 (the bottom pic) is the way to go. Sad, but true.

move everything into rack space behind the desk,

How about UNDER the desk? If you plan carefully, some of it might fit in there. Or maybe some sort of rack thingy going partially into the 14" alcove?

NS10's move to stands.

Yes! Absolutely! It is never a good idea to have speakers sitting directly on your desk or console, even though many, many places do that. But if you look at the places that do have speakers on the bridge, you'll see that those are not the mains: the mains are soffit mounted (flush mounted) in the front wall, and the ones on the bridge are more for checking the mix... But I digress...

So yes, your speakers should be on stands, right up against the front wall, at a height of 1.2m above the floor, and angled 30° inwards to point at your ears. Your ears should be at roughly 38% of the room depth (front to back), but no less than about 30% and no more than about 45%, absolute max. That's the basic "standard" layout for studios.

There's more, but one dose at a time... Don't want to drown you in "information overload"!

- Stuart -

Based on the ratios you've mentioned re: ideal listening sweetspot, I've updated the view as follows... I'm having the ratios drive the size and position of the desk in this case. If I'm building a new desk, I may as well ensure it's right for the space!

Questions...

1. Now that I've got the right ratio between the front and back of the room, I have a question; should I be centering myself in the Left/Right of the front of the room (ie. half of 94") or the back of the room (ie. half of 108")? I'm assuming the front of the room, as that's where the speakers are situated!

2. With this new layout, I'm proposing 2 single racks to the side that are each 29.75" high, as this will allow me to keep the loveseat at the back of the room. Should I be at all concerned as to what this will do to the treatment of the room? In my mind I'm nervous that adding anything large will actually start messing with the acoustics again / simulating a room dimension change.

3. Based on this new layout (as this is clearly the winner!); what do you recommend for panels? Should I still get curtains for the window? Where would a bass trap be ideally placed?

Have I said thank you lately? Thank you!

Cheers,

--Jamie.

Alrighty...so here's a stab at visualizing the panel placement.

My concern here is that this might be overkill, and might make the room TOO dead... I wonder if perhaps a diffuser on the ceiling instead of an absorber is a good idea. Or a diffuser on the top wall on the right hand side?

Anywho - it's a start.

Thoughts welcome!

My concern here is that this might be overkill, and might make the room TOO dead...

Theoretically, that room will need 208 sabins of absorption to get it in line with ITU recommendations. That means 208 square feet of perfect absorption, such as an open window. I don't think you have anywhere near 208 square feet of absorption in there!

I wonder if perhaps a diffuser on the ceiling instead of an absorber is a good idea. Or a diffuser on the top wall on the right hand side?

Unfortunately, the room is just too small to be able to use most types of diffuser. You need a fair amount of space between a diffusers and your ears to ensure that the anomalies and artifacts that are caused by the diffuser, have enough time and distance to merge and smooth out. Not possible in a small room.

1. Now that I've got the right ratio between the front and back of the room, I have a question; should I be centering myself in the Left/Right of the front of the room (ie. half of 94") or the back of the room (ie. half of 108")? I'm assuming the front of the room, as that's where the speakers are situated!

Correct. Centered on the front wall.

2. With this new layout, I'm proposing 2 single racks to the side that are each 29.75" high, as this will allow me to keep the loveseat at the back of the room. Should I be at all concerned as to what this will do to the treatment of the room? In my mind I'm nervous that adding anything large will actually start messing with the acoustics again / simulating a room dimension change.

It is important to keep room symmetry as far back as possible, at least as far back as your ears. Those racks seem to be poking out into the room well before then, and are also encroaching on your seat space. I'd consider moving them further back, if possible.


- Stuart -