I'm wondering if using two layers of 16mm for the middle leaf with GG is superior to using 3 layers without? Isolating from 50hz up sounds pretty good to meSoundman2020 wrote:On the other hand, beef up the middle leaf with an extra layer of 16mm drywall plus Green Glue, increase your air gap to 100mm, put 2 layers of 16mm on the inner leaf (also with GG), fill the cavity between the middle and inner leafs with good insulation, and you could improve that considerably. Your lowest resonance would be down to around 25 Hz, so the ceiling would isolate from 50 Hz upwards, and isolate well from about 70 Hz.
Dog + Bear Studio build
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
I also found this post of yours Sturart, on JohnG's thread for ceiling construction in NZ. It looks like a very similar build to mine in terms of the middle leaf for the ceiling.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
Somewhere there is a comparison of those two options. If only I could remember where! If I recall correctly, they are pretty much the same. Maybe it was on the GG web site?I'm wondering if using two layers of 16mm for the middle leaf with GG is superior to using 3 layers without?
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
there's certainly some comparasion on the GG website, but nothing that is exactly what we're talking about here. There is however, MUCH debate on other websites about the cost vs benefit aspect of GG, with a lot of notable peeps weighing in with opinion and experience.
for my money/research it seems that a double layer ceiling of 16mm gyprock with a GG membrane will out perform a triple layer ceiling, whilst adding approx 50% of the material cost of adding a third layer....without the extra ceiling weight and fixing, taping and mudding of the third layer. So i figure, if I can trade 2 days of mudding and taping the extra layer of gyprock, for what would amount to 2 days work in the studio as far as dollars go, then I'm all for the GG
for my money/research it seems that a double layer ceiling of 16mm gyprock with a GG membrane will out perform a triple layer ceiling, whilst adding approx 50% of the material cost of adding a third layer....without the extra ceiling weight and fixing, taping and mudding of the third layer. So i figure, if I can trade 2 days of mudding and taping the extra layer of gyprock, for what would amount to 2 days work in the studio as far as dollars go, then I'm all for the GG
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
I certainly agree that the GG will probably work out better for practical reasons, especially on ceilings where weight might be an issue. GG makes so much sense all around. But I think for some people, substituting an extra layer of drywall is the only realistic option, since GG isn't sold in all countries, and importing it can make it prohibitively expensive. So I guess it comes down to this: if you can afford it, then use GG. If not, then substitute.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
I did some db measurements before I started the internal ceiling and i'm getting about 30db isolation with just the brick and tin roof. That's with a heavy bass and drum track going at 90db inside and measuring about 1 meter from the building. I'll be interested to see what i end up with once the first layer is on, and then once the second layer with GG as well.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
The door is also in. One layer 19mm from-ply, framed with KD hardwood, 10 layers of 10mm gyprock, and sandwiched with a 12mm ply back. Sealed with two seals, one similar to the GM trunk rubber type that Rod recommends, which seals against the steel door frame, and the second, an EPDM strip which compresses against a timber frame.
...and my right shoulder is damn sore from screwing in gyprock! anyone who is hanging 16mm plaster for a living is well and truly earning their money
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
Progress! And I'm glad you are starting to notice the difference. But wait until all the seals are in place: that's when you'll really hear the full effect.
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Sounds like a pretty impressive door! Over five inches thick (13 cm). It must weigh a ton. Well, not literally a ton, but really heavy. I'm guessing around 100 - 120 kg? Got any photos of that?The door is also in. One layer 19mm from-ply, framed with KD hardwood, 10 layers of 10mm gyprock, and sandwiched with a 12mm ply back.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
I did some further testing with the first ceiling layer of 16mm gyprock up and 24kg/m insulation above (gyprock perimeter unsealed) which reads around a 40db loss. 100db inside. 60 db outside one meter from the wall. Sounds promising
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
the first layer of gyprock is sealed up and i've done a few measurements to get an idea of what sort of TL we have at the moment. Internal measurments were taken about 1m from the speaker. External mesurments were taken about 1m from the wall.
60hz sine - 103 db internal. 48 db external.
70hz sine - 106 db internal. 55 db external.
80hz sine - 104 db internal. 60 db external.
90hz sine - 100 db internal. 50 db external.
Pink noise - 100 db internal. 47 db external.
Full drum kit track - 100db internal. - 50 db external.
There may still be a few pin holes in some of the sealing as I haven't gone around with a fine tooth comb yet, but these results are looking promising to me. The bloody cockatoo's were screwing with some of my outside measurments and peaking the meter more than the sine waves!!
60hz sine - 103 db internal. 48 db external.
70hz sine - 106 db internal. 55 db external.
80hz sine - 104 db internal. 60 db external.
90hz sine - 100 db internal. 50 db external.
Pink noise - 100 db internal. 47 db external.
Full drum kit track - 100db internal. - 50 db external.
There may still be a few pin holes in some of the sealing as I haven't gone around with a fine tooth comb yet, but these results are looking promising to me. The bloody cockatoo's were screwing with some of my outside measurments and peaking the meter more than the sine waves!!
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
Looks pretty good! 55 dB at 60 Hz is real good! And that should still improve a few more dB when the next layer goes on. How many layers of drywall are you planning?
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
looking at two layers of 16mm with green glue for the middle leaf (which i'm doing now), and then two layers of 16mm without green glue for the internal rooms. 100-150mm gap filled with 24k/g m glasswool.
thanks for the tip on the perimeter sealing and resilient mounts for the middle leaf Stuart, I think thats made a considerable difference to this stage of the isolation.
thanks for the tip on the perimeter sealing and resilient mounts for the middle leaf Stuart, I think thats made a considerable difference to this stage of the isolation.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
Looks like you should be getting some very good isolation by the time it is all finished.
One question: Did you do those measurements with "A" weighting, or "C" weighting?
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One question: Did you do those measurements with "A" weighting, or "C" weighting?
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
C weighting, slow. It's an I-phone app from studiosixdigital. I've calibrated it against a meter used by a very experienced recording/mastering engineer. I'd expect some deviation in response given that it's not a dedicated device, but having used it at various gig's and sessions i'd have to say it's reasonably accurate.
Any thought's on what might be a better option for dedicated SPL meter?
Any thought's on what might be a better option for dedicated SPL meter?
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
Unfortunately, while the app might be great, the same cannot be said for the iPhone itself. That's a cheap little directional mic, plus a cheap little low quality pre-amp, plus a cheap little low resolution digitizer circuit. It was never meant for accurately capturing the full spectrum of low and mid frequency sounds: it was just mean to be a telephone. Proper sound level meters have good quality omni mics, good pre-amps, and good digitizers, specifically designed for the purpose of doing nothing else but measuring sound levels. When you think that even a cheap Behringer measurement mic costs upwards of US$ 70, you realize that there's no way the US$ 2.00 (guessing!) mic in an iPhone can give accurate readings.It's an I-phone app from ...
That's probably why those numbers look so suspect. I don't doubt that you are getting good isolation from what you have done so far, but those numbers do not look like what you'd expect, if measured properly. I honestly doubt that the mic and circuit on an iPhone can even measure anything at all about 60 Hz tones: It's hard enough to do that accurately in fully equipped acoustic test laboratory, with professional equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars.
A couple of months back I did some acoustic analysis for a church in a city a few hundred miles north of here, and the Pastor also brought out his iPhone with an app, to compare against what I was using: not even close. Not even in the same ball park in the low end. His readings were off by well over 10 dB, and all over the place, as compared to what I was getting on two different systems, that agreed with each other to within about 3 dB.
I would never use a cell phone with an app for any kind of serious acoustic measurements. There is one company I heard of that makes a mic and pre-amp that can be connected to an iPhone, and used with their app for good acoustic work, but the cost of that is way more than the cost of a simple dedicated meter.
Take a look on e-bay and Amazon: you can find good new ones with the basic features for around US$ 100 and upwards. Nice ones with fancy features are around US$ 500, and real top-end ones are in the thousands of dollars, but you don't need anything that fancy. Just a little hand-held one that meets the standards and has both "A" and "C" weighting, with fast and slow response, should be good. Don't go for the very cheap "toy" ones that are appearing out of China lately, for US$ 15 to US$ 50: those are no better than an iPhone, and some aren't even that good! Get an Extech, Pyle, Phonic, Quest, Mastech, or even a good Radio Shack meter, or something like that. You can often find used ones for around US$ 75, give or take.Any thought's on what might be a better option for dedicated SPL meter?
It would be interesting to compare those iPhone readings against the readings from a proper well calibrated meter.
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Re: Dog + Bear Studio build
stevev wrote:looking at two layers of 16mm with green glue for the middle leaf (which i'm doing now), and then two layers of 16mm without green glue for the internal rooms. 100-150mm gap filled with 24k/g m glasswool.
thanks for the tip on the perimeter sealing and resilient mounts for the middle leaf Stuart, I think thats made a considerable difference to this stage of the isolation.
Just a following along question !
Does it [not] matter which of the 2 leafs that the green glue is applied ?!?
Just trying to better understand how this is being approached. For my build, the green glue between layers was applied on the inside leaf of the control room ... with the 'thinking' that the most sonic energy would eminate from the control room and the GG on the inner walls/ceiling would dissapate that higher intensity.
Just asking questions to better understand.
... back to 'background watching'