Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

... in your 'spare time'
Ummmm... "spare time"???? What's that? I think I read about that intriguing concept somewhere, and it sounds like something I should have! Where can I get some? Do they sell it in Home Depot??? :) :shot:

I haven't asked Glenn for all his reasons, but one of the things that I'm starting to appreciate with having the intersect further back, is a wider sweet spot at the console. If the "cone" ends right behind your head, then as you lean left or right you can find your self with one ear off-axis and edging outside the direct field of both speakers, while the other is getting right into the middle of the combined field. With the speakers aimed slightly outside your ears, for the more rearward intersect, then as you lean left and right, you are moving you ears more directly onto the axis on one side, while still staying in the combined field on the other side. OK, so its a subtle effect, but I have noticed it, so it is worth taking into account. The same also applies to front/back movement: If the intersect is close behind your head, then you don't need to move your head too far back to be through it and out to the other side, where the left speaker is now aimed more at your right ear, and the right more at your left. Especially if you had to increase the toe-in to 45°, for example, due to the room dimensions.

In a big room with the speakers far away, these effects probably aren't very important at all, but in a small room things are different. And of course, the closer you are to a speaker, the less you have to move to get off-axis. For example, at the extreme case of having your ear just 6" form the tweeter, if you move just two inches to the side you are already nearly twenty degrees off axis, and well out of the on-axis field. But if your ear is 60 inches away and you move it 2 inches to the side, you are less than two degrees off axis, which is not important.

Of course, all of the above depends on the directional behavior of the speaker itself (dispersion angles). For a speaker with wide dispersion angles across the entire spectrum, the effect is much less. But in that case, you need more careful room treatment, since the speakers are "illuminating" more of the walls with the wider cone, so your first reflection points (for example) need to cover more area, and your ray-tracing (if you are doing RFZ) needs to consider higher angles. On the other hand, speakers with only narrow on-axis fields at higher frequencies don't illuminate so much of the walls with the highs, but they do make your sweet spot smaller, since you can't move your head around as much and still stay on axis.

So there's a lot of factors here, and a couple of others that I'm still looking into. Each effect by itself might be small, but add them all up and it definitely seems that having the intersect further back makes sense.

Plus, there's an interesting study I read a while back (but can't find now!) that showed how most engineers tend to work with their heads a little forward of the supposed "optimum" point of the sweet spot, most likely subconsciously: they just work where it sounds best. There has to be a reason for that!

Glenn might also have other reasons for his recommendation: I'm wondering if he is around? It would be good to hear his comments! And John's, and Rod's and Andre's...


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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

Hey Stuart thanks for answering my question regarding the mix position...that's some very valuable information that I don't see stated on the forum very often. Seems so simple, but I'm sure many newbs like myself are hazy when it comes down to such finite details.
Certainly NOT to derail this thread ... which I have enjoyed the progression !
RJ, how DARE you try to derail my thread!! :evil: haha just kidding...PLEASE feel free to chime in at any point about anything...it really helps keep my motivation up! Not to mention I've looked forward to the day that this thread might take on a life of its own... :shock: :lol:
If a separate thread was ever started to discuss/ educate us students on the theory/ philosophy of monitor focus depth in relation to the 'mixer seating' position ... I would certainly attend that thread !
I full heartedly agree with this statement...
Stuart ? in your 'spare time'
Yea Stuart...time to buckle down man. No more lolly gaggin around. Stop putting off that trip to Home Depot and just go buy you some spare time. It's not THAT expensive and definitely worth the price tag. :D
So there's a lot of factors here, and a couple of others that I'm still looking into. Each effect by itself might be small, but add them all up and it definitely seems that having the intersect further back makes sense.
Stuart, this all makes much more sense now! Thanks for taking the time to go into all of the details!

I will be posting the new layout soon!

Cheers and thanks for all the support guys!
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

Alright...drumroll please... :snack:

Layout 14.3!

Ok so it's not that much different but the control room is fixed! The first reflection off the side wall comes in at about 2' behind the engineers head. All of the reflections are directed to the back of the room and the closest reflection time comes in at 20.31ms after the direct signal hits the ears! This is with monitor angles at 34º which puts the ears 5'5 1/4" from the speakers. I figured this was pretty decent for this size room (245 sq. ft.).

I also changed the doors into the mechanical room and bathroom...I feel like it will be more fluid this way, plus it adds wall space to the live room for treatment etc. What do you all think?

Any other thoughts regarding this design?

Let me know if you want to see any close up shots of any particular section. The only place I'm not sure I can get away with is the sliding door into the control room. I currently have it flush with the soffits, which would be awesome if I could pull it off since it increases sight lines. Is this possible? I've not seen it done in any of the designs on the forum so I feel like it may be a problem.

Any and all criticism is welcome!! Please convince me of any issues you foresee with this design...

Thanks in advance,
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

My only concern at this point is whether or not the CR has space/places for slats. What do you all think?

I'd like to make sure it has the potential for slot resonators in case that is the route I end up going for some of the treatment. I guess if I angled those rear walls out a bit more, that would be a good place for resonators?

Looking forward to hearing some opinions!

Thanks
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

Any other thoughts regarding this design?
Naah, terrible: I think version 1.0 was the best.... You should go back to that... :) :shock: :!: :roll: :shot:

Seriously, it's looking very good.
The only place I'm not sure I can get away with is the sliding door into the control room. I currently have it flush with the soffits, which would be awesome if I could pull it off since it increases sight lines. Is this possible?
Should be OK. That's more an issue of framing and trim, than it is of acoustics. You'll be able to figure out how to do that once you add the 3rd dimension to your flat-land world, and start putting 2x4s in place. It just means that you wont have ay real door frame on that edge: it will go in behind the edge of the soffit. I don't see it as being a big issue.
My only concern at this point is whether or not the CR has space/places for slats. What do you all think?
Rear sidewalls is where I would probably put them. Maybe not the entire surface, but at least some of that could be slots.

I like the new bathroom layout, too. Better.


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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

Thanks for the feedback Stuart! MUCH appreciated as always...

I fiddled around a little more with the design today and decided to go ahead and splay those rear walls of the control room out to the point where the right side is parallel with the outer shell...I think this will allow for a much better sounding control room since there will be plenty of space for treatment.

I decided not to worry about the space lost in the mechanical room since it is still plenty big enough for the purpose it will serve.

I drew in some very crude bass hangers and potential slot resonators (the brownish areas) just to show how much more space is now available in the rear section of the CR.

Also, in regards to the bathroom walls...I didn't use the angles created by the CR because I figure it would be easier just to frame it in with 2X4s rather than spending money on the resilient channel that would attach to the CR shell. The decoupled 2X4s will also provide better isolation from flushing noises (and ehm..shall I say...other noises :shock: :) ) than the resilient channel could provide.

I do have one quick question regarding this drawing:

- Would the slat resonators extend to the back wall of the CR (as shown) or would they stop where the bass hangers come out to? I wasn't sure when I drew this in and I realize it's not that important right now...I was just curious.

I think this might be the one!! Feedback is GREATLY apreciated!

Thanks again
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by ironman »

Shybird wrote:Ah Juho that would be awesome!! I've been thinking about how much time it would save the moderators on the forum if everything were neatly compiled like your saying (I realize this is no easy task)...so newbs could search within something more concrete and organized rather than searching the entire forum which oftentimes is more frustrating than rewarding :? ...
I totally know the feeling :D
As said, feels like i've read the whole forum from start to end 20 times :D
Anyways, thanks for the encouragement on the progress! Sometimes I feel like I'm moving at a snails pace with this stuff but I just keep reminding myself how important the entire design process really is...I'm hoping for "smooth" sailing once construction begins.
You're welcome!
It's been really nice to follow such a fine develop in a design..I feel that snails pace too, man! But I've decided that this is the time when i'll design my building properly :) Usually, with normal renovations/buildings i'll just start making things, and design them on-the-go..
You gotta get back to a desktop so you can do some real work!! You're waaaay out there...what kind of work do you do?? Also, let me know how I can help you with this "sticky" idea or whatever it turns into...I'd love to contribute however I can.

Cheers
Trevor
I finally did! Yay! I'm able to be at home for weekend :) Still have to return to the far north at Monday though..
I am an electrician, and i run my own firm. And the reason why we are up there is that we're building 3 gas stations at the area..

I will let You know, Trevor. As soon as i get back to my normal day routine, maybe in 2 months, then we'll start putting those terms together :yahoo:

Cheers!

-Juho-
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

I am an electrician, and i run my own firm.
Sweet! So I can bombard you with electrical questions when I get to that phase?? :) haha
As soon as i get back to my normal day routine, maybe in 2 months, then we'll start putting those terms together
That's perfect! I'm ready to help anytime. I think it would be very resourceful.


Regarding the design...I'm working on some slight modifications today. I want to see if I can push the mix position back a bit and the sliding doors forward a bit. It's really bothering me that the sight lines into the right half of the live room are limited. I understand it's not necessarily "make or break" but I have to see if it CAN be fixed. If not, I think this layout is the one. I'll post back with an update today.

Cheers!
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

Hey guys I'm back with an update...

After trying different combinations of soffit angles and front wall angles in the control room, I think I've found the best happy medium for this floorplan. Here's the specs:

1.) Sight lines cut through the middle majority of the LR (blind spots on either side are roughly equivalent). This is the best that I can achieve without cutting the size of the LR down too much. I did lose about 10 sq ft though...but I feel it's worth it in regards to visibility.

2.) Front walls in the CR are angled 20º and the soffits are angled 32º. I'm a bit concerned once again about the space left between the drywall and the corner of my Event monitors but Stuart had told me not to worry too much as long as there is space for connecting the monitor cables in the back, which there is enough for that.

3.) Live Room: 448 sq ft
Control Room: 271 sq ft
Iso Booth: 148 sq ft
Storage Room: 68 sq ft
Bathroom: 35 sq ft

4.) The closest reflections from the sliding glass doors and opposite wall are about 2'1" behind the engineer's head.

5.) The time it takes the first reflection to reach the ear after the direct signal is 20.056ms... :D


Also, I went ahead and drew in some basic treatment just to get a rough idea of the floor space left over. The brown spaces are potential slot resonators, the dark gray spaces are absorption, and the dark blue are cylindrical diffusors (I just thought they fit nice...not sure if it's a good idea though :!: ). And then of course the purplish rectangles at the rear of the CR are hangers. This is all very willy nilly. Oh and that is a concert grand piano btw. I do not own one though...it's just for a better perspective on size of space! :lol:

I really need some feedback on this design! I'm eager to start the 3D model but want to make sure I've not missed anything.

Thanks again in advance!
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

Nice! Really nice! I like it.
I'm a bit concerned once again about the space left between the drywall and the corner of my Event monitors but Stuart had told me not to worry too much as long as there is space for connecting the monitor cables in the back, which there is enough for that.
I said that? :shock: :) Yeah, I think I did. But here's a curve ball for ya: If that gets very tight in there, then you could build just that one stud bay "inside out", and double up the mass, maybe by using fiber-cement board instead of drywall for one layer, using the "beef up between the studs" technique. That will give you at least an extra 3 inches of depth behind the monitors, if you need it. Would that help?
5.) The time it takes the first reflection to reach the ear after the direct signal is 20.056ms...
Damn! That's no good! It has to be at least 20.06148573 ms! You better go back and start all over... :)

The basic treatment looks reasonable, with some caveats. But we can get to those later, as you did say that this is just a rough idea, for aprox. positions and sizes.

Looking very neat! I'm hopeful for this turning out really well! :thu:


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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

Thanks for the encouragement Stuart!! Much appreciated as always...
That will give you at least an extra 3 inches of depth behind the monitors, if you need it. Would that help?
That would help definitely! I guess there are two major reasons I would take the extra time to build it like you described:

1.) To have the space and potential for upgrading my monitors down the road to something of higher quality. On a side note, do you think this room is suitable and/or would benefit from monitors with larger (than 8") drivers? If so I need to make sure there is room in the soffits for such an upgrade.

2.) This discussion (HERE) got me to thinking more about the space inside the soffits. One person (oudplayer) mentioned how soffit mounting can cause "horning" which he then explained as this: "Not sure exactly what is mechanically happening, except that certain frequencies "horn" or spike out due to the back-of-speaker to wall-to-speaker-again refelction time. Basically, the opposite of 'flat frequency response,' where certain individual frequencies become really prominent. I think these are often low-mid frequencies and not so much high frequencies." He basically (as I understood) said it was a problem that occurs when the soffits are not designed with enough space between the back of the speaker and the wall. He went on to say "Thus, the sheer amount of real-estate you lose in a well-constructed soffit configuration may dissuade you from this approach..." Honestly though, there is an awful lot of arguing going on in that thread so I have no idea what to take from it. :?
Damn! That's no good! It has to be at least 20.06148573 ms! You better go back and start all over...
Hmmmm...I wonder how many millimeters I would have to move the rear wall back to gain that extra .00548573ms?? :horse: :roll: :)
Looking very neat! I'm hopeful for this turning out really well!
So is this my ticket to the land of 3D?? Haha... :yahoo:

Onward!
Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

except that certain frequencies "horn" or spike out due to the back-of-speaker to wall-to-speaker-again refelction time. Basically, the opposite of 'flat frequency response,' where certain individual frequencies become really prominent. I think these are often low-mid frequencies and not so much high frequencies."
I haven't read that thread yet, but I find it hard to agree that reflections BEHIND the baffle can have much effect on the room, if the soffit is built correctly. "Massive, rigid, hard" is the ticket, with the entire cavity well damped. If the baffle is massive enough, rigid enough, and hard enough, and the cavity is as fully damped as possible, then there should be precious little (if any at all) bass energy from behind the speaker getting back into the room. Even if the speaker cabinet itself is rear ported, and there is interaction going on in the port, I still don't see it creating any "horning" effect on the front of the soffit. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what he is saying? In any event, I don't recall ever seeing a REW analysis of a room that would suggest such a thing actually happens. There might be horning going on, but I'm having trouble believing that it is due to effects behind the soffit face. When I have a chance, I'll read that thread and see if I'm understand his argument correctly.
I wonder how many millimeters I would have to move the rear wall back to gain that extra .00548573ms??
I figure a bit less than two tenths of a mm should do it! :) (So just use thinner paint, and you'll be fine... :) :!: :shock: :roll: :shot:
So is this my ticket to the land of 3D?? Haha...
:thu:

Now the REAL fun starts.... Now you get to do your ray-tracing in all three dimensions at once, instead of just 2! :)

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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

This discussion (HERE) got me to thinking more about the space inside the soffits.
OK; I just read the thread over there, and the only guys making any sense are Barefoot (not surprisingly!) and Bob Olhsson (also not surprisingly!). The others don't seem to have too much grasp as to what soffits do, how they are built, and how they work. There's a lot of waffling about "Well, that's just techno-jargon, but I know better than the experts, because my speakers sound fantastic, and they aren't soffit mounted.". Go figure! :) The person who made that comment you mentioned also doesn't seem to understand soffits at all, since he wasn't even sure if there really is a 6dB bass boost, or why. Fortunately, barefoot explained it very clearly, and very accurately.

There was also the side-track in there, about how "mastering rooms never soffit mount", which isn't true, of course, and the comment that when Bob Katz heard a mastering room with properly soffit mounted speakers, he thought is was "some of the best ... he had ever heard". That's pretty meaningful, coming from Bob Katz!


- Stuart -
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Shybird »

OK; I just read the thread over there, and the only guys making any sense are Barefoot (not surprisingly!) and Bob Olhsson (also not surprisingly!)
Ah thank you Stuart...that eases my mind. I figured it was a matter of personal opinions not being justified by proper understanding of acoustics! However, I had no idea who to trust because I don't feel confident enough in my own knowledge yet.
There was also the side-track in there, about how "mastering rooms never soffit mount", which isn't true, of course, and the comment that when Bob Katz heard a mastering room with properly soffit mounted speakers, he thought is was "some of the best ... he had ever heard". That's pretty meaningful, coming from Bob Katz!
Thank you for setting it straight...I was really starting to wonder how in the world proper soffit mounting could be "bad" for mastering (or even mixing for that matter)!!
I figure a bit less than two tenths of a mm should do it! (So just use thinner paint, and you'll be fine...
hahah that's great

I'll post back once I have my 3D in progress!

Trevor
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Re: Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

Post by Soundman2020 »

I figured it was a matter of personal opinions not being justified by proper understanding of acoustics! However, I had no idea who to trust because I don't feel confident enough in my own knowledge yet.
Just so you feel even more comfortable: You might not know who Barefoot is: he's actually a member of this forum, and used to post a lot more often here than he does today: the problem is that his studio reference monitor manufacturing business is going so well that he doesn't have much time to post any more!! :) Barefoot monitors are pretty darn good, and well regarded in the industry. So what he says, carries quite a bit of weight! He knows a thing or two about how monitors work, I reckon... :!:

- Stuart -
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