Drum Room Construction

[BriHar]

@ Stuart,

Regarding the Links in Greek,
On the far right side of the menubar you'll see a small British Flag, this will show the site in english. If you are rerouted, select studies - vibration control from the menu, and you'll be there - the rest of the links should now show in english as well.

[Soundman2020]

Thanks Brian, but there's no links on that page that Antonios linked to: it's just a jpg image:

http://www.vibro.gr/new/dyn/UserFiles/F ... omplex.jpg

Did you find that one somewhere else, with an English version?


- Stuart -

[xSpace]

The problem with Greek is, it's all Greek to me

Thanks Brain for clarifying that there was an English version of the site.

I move so fast sometimes I miss a lot...

[beeros05]

Sound insulation according to ELOT (Greek ISO Specs) 306.7

SPECIMEN (ESSAY/CASE STUDY) OVERVIEW: Floating Floor with tiles over 2 layers of Pads.

1. Glued Tile 0.8cm
2. Reinforce Concrete 5cm
3. Anti-Vibrating Elastic Pad ETAFON (VIBRO) EP RED 6*6cm (2 layers)
4. Reinforced Concrete 15cm
5. Plaster
6. Silicon

L'n: Normalized sound pressure of impact noise

Test Area: 15.66 m2
Area's Mass:
Total thickens of test area:
Emission (broadcast) Room volume : 63.96 m3
Reception Room volume: 58.59 m3
Space State: Empty
Ηammer Types: Without Elastic
Sound test: Standard impact noise generator
Receiving Filter: 1/3 of Octave

Evaluation ELOT 461.2
normalized weighted sound pressure level of impact noise:
L'n,w=43db

[beeros05]

Update...

Floating Ceiling Pics...

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Yesterday the guys came to finish the ceiling. So i went to the basement to see what they were doing. I saw 4 suspensions installed like this

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I got really frustrated and i asked the contractor why these suspensions were so wrong placed and not vertically. His answer was that the drill did not drill vertically and he was really comfortable when he said that. So i had no choice than getting frustrated even more, i explained him once again to follow MY instructions because this construction was not HIS responsibility any more. He uninstalled all the suspensions and installed them correctly.

When i speak with his technicians and i say them "I want this to be done that way, the other that way" etc etc and then i ask "is it technically possible to do it the way i want" they never argue we always make a conversation in order to do it right. When the contractor is there it is a living hell. I have to be there with a whip!

Any way i have some really GOOD news. The room right now needs one layer of gypsum board on the ceiling, and 2 or 3 layers on the exterior side. All joints are unsealed, i have no doors, no silencers, no sound treatment in the room and i still haven't made the floor. In other words there is sound leak from everywhere. But i really wanted to make a sound check! So i set up bass drum, snare, floor tom and a cymbal. I told my parents to mute the tv for a couple of minuites. I played and afterwards my parents told me that they could hear me but there where NO vibrations! So i assume the the "system" is working.

I haven't heard the results myself so maybe today i'll bring a friend to play some drums and try to evaluate the situation.

[Soundman2020]

Thanks for the translation! That makes sense. And once again, we see that they specify concrete... The floated floor in this case is 5cm of concrete with tiles on top. Lots of mass.

I saw 4 suspensions installed like this

Lucky you saw that! It' looks like the two sections would have been in direct contact, rubbing together, and thus short-circuiting the entire ceiling. That would have damaged your isolation a lot! Fortunately you saw it and fixed it. It sounds like you will need to keep a close watch on what those guys are doing. Like we Antonios and the rest of us have said many times: This will only work if everything is installed carefully, properly, and with understanding of the acoustic reasons for everything. It only takes one mistake like that one to destroy everything you are trying to do.

All joints are unsealed, i have no doors, no silencers, no sound treatment in the room and i still haven't made the floor. ... my parents told me that they could hear me but there where NO vibrations!

That pretty much confirms what Brien and I have been saying all along: the floor isn't needed. Just a drum riser. My opinion is still the same: the proposed floor will work, but is not needed. I'd still suggest what I said before: hold off on that floor until you have the rest of the room done, including the HVAC with silencers, as well as the doors. Test the room without the floor, and see how it works out. You can still add the floor if it turns out that you need it, but I suspect you wont, if you have a decent drum riser. I still haven't seen teh final plan for your floor. You mentioned only wood, but all of the diagrams posted by Antonios's company say the same thing: concrete. If that image that Antonios linked to and that you translated for us is correct for the type of pads you bought, then you need 5cm of concrete on your new floor, or the equivalent amount of mass with some other material. Or maybe Antonios didn't post the right information? Maybe that's for a different product? Maybe you can post a diagram of that proposed floor, with the details. I'm curious about that. But I still suggest that you leave that until the end, until the rest of the room is finished, so you can see if you really do need it or not.

Anyway, this new test you did also confirms what we said about the previous build: it was NEVER going to work! You were a lot further advanced with that first attempt when you tested it, and the situation was much worse than what you have now, built properly! So at least you are no certain that what we have been telling you is correct, and that you made the right decision to tear down the old, useless attempt and re-build it.


- Stuart -

[beeros05]

Lucky you saw that! It' looks like the two sections would have been in direct contact, rubbing together, and thus short-circuiting the entire ceiling. That would have damaged your isolation a lot! Fortunately you saw it and fixed it. It sounds like you will need to keep a close watch on what those guys are doing. Like we Antonios and the rest of us have said many times: This will only work if everything is installed carefully, properly, and with understanding of the acoustic reasons for everything. It only takes one mistake like that one to destroy everything you are trying to do.

You cant imagine what i have been going through, how much stress and disappointment i felt because of this guy! I have to supervise this guy all the time. Its worse than supervising my nephews in their crazy game time!

That pretty much confirms what Brien and I have been saying all along: the floor isn't needed. Just a drum riser. My opinion is still the same: the proposed floor will work, but is not needed. I'd still suggest what I said before: hold off on that floor until you have the rest of the room done, including the HVAC with silencers, as well as the doors. Test the room without the floor, and see how it works out. You can still add the floor if it turns out that you need it, but I suspect you wont, if you have a decent drum riser.

Yes i don't doubt you guys, but i still have not heard myself what my parents said to me (no impact noise)

I still haven't seen teh final plan for your floor. You mentioned only wood, but all of the diagrams posted by Antonios's company say the same thing: concrete. If that image that Antonios linked to and that you translated for us is correct for the type of pads you bought, then you need 5cm of concrete on your new floor, or the equivalent amount of mass with some other material. Or maybe Antonios didn't post the right information? Maybe that's for a different product? Maybe you can post a diagram of that proposed floor, with the details. I'm curious about that. But I still suggest that you leave that until the end, until the rest of the room is finished, so you can see if you really do need it or not.

A friend will help me to place the pads correctly according to the load. Generally 5 pieces (double layer) are placed per m2. I mentioned if i remember well, 2 layers of water proof plywood (4.4cm both) with 2 layers of gypsum board in between them over 2 layers of the pads (the same model like the diagram) with rockwool between the pads. So i'll have a 12-13 cm floor.

Stuart i understand what you say about the floor but...waterproof plywood is expensive and i have already paid for that. If i tell him to give me the money of the plywood and take it back he wont accept...so if i dont use it i will be a waste of more than 600€. Antonis's brother told me that the mass of the wood and gypsumboard is enough to load the pads into the charging state.

Anyway, this new test you did also confirms what we said about the previous build: it was NEVER going to work! You were a lot further advanced with that first attempt when you tested it, and the situation was much worse than what you have now, built properly! So at least you are no certain that what we have been telling you is correct, and that you made the right decision to tear down the old, useless attempt and re-build it.

Wanna hear something really funny..? I asked one of his technicians how many "studios" he has build with the contractor, he told me over 20. And when i asked him how he builds them he told me they make triple rooms..!! So they have a room they build one inside of it, then another and then another one! Nice shit ha?

[beeros05]

Update, Sound-check No 2

So i brought a friend to play some drums. I went to the ground floor at my parent's apartment. Clearly there were no vibrations AT ALL on the floor. I could hear my friend playing. What i was listening it was my drums but it was like the sound was being transmitted through the walls. When i placed my hand on several walls i felt no vibrations at all but it was like the sound would come of them. So what kind of noise is that?

[Soundman2020]

You cant imagine what i have been going through, how much stress and disappointment i felt because of this guy!

I can imagine... But think of it this way: At least you are on the right track now, you can see that what you are doing is working already (even though it isn't finished yet), and there isn't too much to go now. Pretty soon it will be finished, and you'll never have to see "that guy" again!

2 layers of water proof plywood (4.4cm both) with 2 layers of gypsum board in between them

4.4cm for two layers of plywood?? As in 2.2 cm for each layer??? That's thick plywood! Nice!

That works out to roughly 52 kg/m2 of surface density (total, including gypsum and plywood). 5cm of concrete would be roughly twice that amount. How big is each pad?

waterproof plywood is expensive and i have already paid for that. If i tell him to give me the money of the plywood and take it back he wont accept

...Well, if you've got it and can't send it back, then I guess you might as well use it.

And when i asked him how he builds them he told me they make triple rooms..!! So they have a room they build one inside of it, then another and then another one! Nice shit ha?

Hoo boy!!!! That's TRIPLE LEAF at least, maybe more, depending on how they build it.... Man, there sure are a lot of people near you who paid way too much for their studios, and didn't get half the isolation they could have.... Maybe you should go into the studio building business, now that you know how to do it right!!!!

Clearly there were no vibrations AT ALL on the floor.

Excellent! That's good news.

it was like the sound was being transmitted through the walls. When i placed my hand on several walls i felt no vibrations at all but it was like the sound would come of them. So what kind of noise is that?

You mean that when you got your head close to the wall you could hear the drums better (especially the kick and snare), and when you moved your head further away you couldn't hear them so well? Is that roughly what you heard??

- Stuart -

[beeros05]

How big is each pad?

6*6cm, 2.5cm height but 2 layers. That makes 6x6x5. It is the same pad shown in the case study i translated.

Maybe you should go into the studio building business, now that you know how to do it right!!!!

You think so? Why not! Plus i am i good salesman as well if i like what i sell. Interesting idea i'll think about it!

You mean that when you got your head close to the wall you could hear the drums better (especially the kick and snare), and when you moved your head further away you couldn't hear them so well? Is that roughly what you heard??

I could hear the drums clearly while i was sitting on the sofa or in the middle of the living room. When i was approaching walls i could hear them better but i couldn't feel vibrations on the walls as well.

I have more stuff to do in that room. The last thing will be the sound treatment. I know just the basic classic stuff. I am thinking of making super-chunk bass traps in all corners and the classic diy broadband absorbers on walls. For the ceiling i dont know yet, i dont have much height. The room is not going to be a pro-recording room.

[Soundman2020]

I could hear the drums clearly while i was sitting on the sofa or in the middle of the living room. When i was approaching walls i could hear them better but i couldn't feel vibrations on the walls as well.

OK, that's what I suspected. That's normal. You normally can hear low frequencies (bass) better when you get close to walls. This is sometimes called "bass build up". It isn't caused by vibrations in the walls, but rather by reflection of bass energy. For this same reason, home theater builders often put their subwoofer speakers up against a wall, or even better in a corner, since the wall gives the bass a free "boost".

But all of that will go away once the room is finished.

By the way, you do need to make sure that the contractor is sealing all joints very, very carefully! This is very important: All joints in the gypsum board must be sealed, and the joints on the second layer must NOT line up with the joints on the first layer. They must use proper acoustic sealant around the edges of all the walls, where the gypsum board meets the walls, floor and ceiling.


- Stuart -

[beeros05]

the joints on the second layer must NOT line up with the joints on the first layer.

I don't understand what this means

They must use proper acoustic sealant around the edges of all the walls, where the gypsum board meets the walls, floor and ceiling.

I am going to use Sika Backing Rod to fill the joint gaps and on top of that i am going to use elastic gum sealant something like this

[beeros05]

Hi again,

i uploaded a drawing that has to do with the elastic pads placement. According to Antonis 5.5 pieces / m2 should be placed approximately but at the drum-kit's space they should be placed more densely according the drum-kit's weight plus mine as dynamic load.

Elastic Pads Placement.jpg

The usable area is 9 m2 and the red square boxes is the division of the space in m2.

The area inside (interior square) is the drum-kit's space where the pads are placed more densely.

The pads i use are the same as the case study i translated - RED color, double layer. 6*6*5cm

I don't know if it is right 100% so any recommendations are welcome!

[beeros05]

I placed the pads with 60cm distance in between them, maybe i should buy 5 more for the drum-kit space. The space is 9.8 m2, 3.45(L) x 2.85(W) It looks like this:

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[beeros05]

Floor

Elastic Pads Vibro EP RED 6x6x5 and rock-wool 75kg/m3. The distance between the pads is 60cm approximately and 5.5 pieces/m2 are placed approximately. In the drum-kit's area the pads are placed more densely

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Marine plywood 1st layer

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Gypsum-board 2 layers

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Marine plywood 2nd layer

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The floor has 2cm distance from the walls, the gaps will be sealed with backing rod and elastic sealant. The mass of the floor right now has set the pads in a charging state. The pads can handle the dynamic load of my weight and my kit's as well without getting overloaded.