John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello all

I have been trying to work out what products to use to soundproof my singing/home theatre room in the house that we are moving into.
It will be a room within a room located in the garage that is 6.3m by 5.3m and it backs onto my mother in laws bedroom
So many sites telling me what is best and most cost effective including this one and when I find a supplier for the product in Australia and get a price I need to go and take a lie down. Green glue at $365au for 12 and $300 for ONE SHEET of Quietrock.

At this point I am looking at Soundcheck plasterboard at about $40 a sheet and
http://www.gyprock.com.au/our-products/ ... 84%A2.aspx
Gyprock Resilient mount system to isolate and mount the soundcheck panels at $4.50 per mount and $18 per 6m track I do not have a link to the product.
Quietglue at $165 for 12 http://www.quietrock.com/soundproof-pro ... -glue.html

And im not sure what to use here in Australia for floating my floor.

Any help with products recommendations for Aus or if anyone has any experience with Quietglue either good or bad your advice would be much appreciated as there is no way me buying greenglue would get past my wife.

i think per the responses on this site and other sites - you need to build a separate wall - perhaps an entire room-within-a-room to decouple from the structure on the sides and ceiling, and perhaps even floating the floor but perhaps a damped membrane over the concrete floor will suffice or not... you would want to do some tests: metal and rubber hammers tapping on the walls, joists, and floor to determine how much conduction you have into the bedroom. the addition of mass to the existing walls (avoiding triple leaf configurations) and enough air space between the enhanced walls/ceiling and the inner isolation walls/ceiling will be critical in the process. simply buying expensive drywall and some constrained layer damping material will not suffice.

Thanks for your response Gullfo.
I already plan to do a room within a room

Fizbain wrote:It will be a room within a room located in the garage that is 6.3m by 5.3m and it backs onto my mother in laws bedroom

But what I do need is advice on the acoustic products that are available in Australia as I cannot afford most of the products that are normally talked about on this forum as their prices seem to be 2.5 times higher in Australia than they are in the US even though our dollar is stronger ... maybe they get flown here on a golden plane with diamond wings piloted by john Travolta or something.
Has anyone had experience with Gyproc soundcheck panelling or quietglue as these seem to be the most cost effective of the products that can be found here in Aus that are designed to help soundproof rooms.

Fiz, 16mm Fyrchek has almost as much mass as a 13mm panel of Soundchek. But it's less than half the price. So if you can spare a few millimetres of lost room space, it's a much better $ per mass option. Do a web search for the CSR red book and have a look at the theatre construction section - they use 3 layers of Fyrchek in commercial movie theatres. Soundchek is a bit of a scam for the home-theatre types who use monster cable on their 7.1 setups.

Also, don't just look at CSR for Gyprock, there are several other manufacturers and they have equivalent products that are often cheaper depending on where you order from (note: the big green shed will be beaten on price for real building materials!)

Do a search for John Sayers' posts and read all of them. You'll see that his designs don't use "soundproofing" products like green glue, quietrock etc. You can get the result you want for much less money.

Thanks for that Adam .. i just found the Gyprock theatre page http://www.gyprock.com.au/resources/fil ... ration=135 where is mentions the three layers of frycheck.

So is it ONLY mass im after as far as the sheeting goes or are there products that have a cleaver science behind them to make them work better than another sheet of the same mass?

Heya folks >> i originally posted this in my own studio thread, but thought it would also be useful here as I am also based in Australia, Perth, WA.
my studio design thread:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =1&t=15727
______________________________________________________________________

ok here is a list of the materials I need to get for the new studio build
(work in progress):
priority:1 means we absolutely need this shit, priority:2 means this shit
is good stuff, but optional.

1.Plasterboard - Boral Firestop™ Plasterboard (16mm), Soundstop (10mm),
Enviro Soundstop (13mm), Ecostop (13mm, perforations).
http://www.boral.com.au/ProductCatalogu ... search=755

There are other products: BGC 16mmm Fire Rated, BarrierBoard, Gyprock
Soundchek and Fyrchek,
http://www.homeimprovementpages.com.au/ ... asterboard
http://www.gyprock.com.au/our-products/ ... 84%A2.aspx
http://www.gyprock.com.au/our-products/ ... 84%A2.aspx
http://www.soundblock.com.au/soundproof_walls.htm
http://www.bgcplaster.com
This is great for comparing different types:
http://www.how2plaster.com/sound/compare.html

First preference would be the Boral Firestop Plasterboard, seems what
everyone seems to go for (I guess the theory is to go for the extra mass -
16mm). Or even the Gyprock Fyrchek is much similar as is the BGC !6mm Fire
Rated. The BarrierBoard product may be good for fixing to the existing
shed walls, rather than double thickness of plasterboard which would need
to use more screws and/or greenglue. All depends on the price comparisons
really (of which I need to research, gather and share the data)
Really - Any of these products will suffice - if at a bargain price! Have
been downloading and studying their installation manuals as well. CSR,
Boral and BGC and prob many more have great detailed manuals for download.
priority:1

2. Greenglue or Quietglue Pro - this is mostly for sticking plasterboard
together and provides much isolation.
Will prob need a fair bit of it - will get more detail on this.
http://www.ultrafonic.com.au/Shop/cat/1 ... mpound.htm
http://www.quietrock.com/soundproof-pro ... -glue.html

The quietglue Pro seems to be the more affordable option and does just as
good job, will have to find out if we can get it in Australia!?!
priority:2

3. Insulation - Tontine make a bunch of acoustic insulation products:
Looks like the Acousticsorb 2 is the product to go for.
http://www.insulationbattsaustralia.com.au/acoustic.php
The other product is Bradfords Rockwool - i think this is more popular
because it is cheaper and has more mass:
Bradford Fibertex Rockwool Partition Batts:
http://www.bradfordinsulation.com.au/Pr ... ition.aspx
We are gonna put this stuff in the wall and ceiling cavities.

Or maybe this for the ceiling:
http://www.bradfordinsulation.com.au/Pr ... ticon.aspx
Walls should use mutli-layers of CSR Gyprock®
Fyrchek™ with preferably two separate studs to support
the walls. Bradford Rockwool or Glasswool Partition
Batts should fill the cavity of the walls for an increase of
up to 10 STC.

If steel roofing is used for these rooms, insulate the roof
with Bradford ACOUSTICON™ to reduce rain noise transmission. Ceilings
should also use multi layers of CSR Gyprock® Fyrchek™resiliently mounted
to the
furring channels.

Another insulation product:
http://www.higginsinsulation.com.au/ind ... &Itemid=61

Rigid Insulation: Bradford Quietel:
http://www.bradfordinsulation.com.au/Pr ... ietel.aspx
This is for using in speaker soffits, acoustic panels and slat resonators.
priority:1

3. Furring Channels/ Resilient Channel: we already got 3X 50mm Furring
Channels on the ceiling and 1X 20mm RC on all the walls in the middle. I
rekon we may need to add another strip of RC to the top and bottom of the
walls - we then fix insulation to the existing corrugated walls and fix
the plasterboard layers (2X Plasterboard, or Barrierboard) to the RC
channels - so we need 20mm R-Channel for the walls, will need approx 40m
of this.
(Not to sure if we will need to strengthen the existing structure will a
steel framing to be able to hold the extra mass of the insulation and
plasterboard we intend to fix to it? - my feelings are 'yes')(Also, I
found out that the shed is from outdoorworld, so im gonna go check out
their showroom, maybe ask some questions? Would be interesting to see if
anyone else has done any acoustic treatments to these kind of shed/steel
buildings?!)

4. Wall Studs - either steel or timber will suffice. Timber has to be
35mmx75mm minimum, can get 100x50mm too, I guess the smaller stuff will be
cheaper? I think dad may have a bit of timber for me down on the farm?
Check this Aussie company/product out for acoustic steel framing:
http://www.peeracousticstud.com/

5. Ceiling Joists - 50mmX200mm timber.

6. Heavy Acoustic Curtain - for the vocal recording area.

all the best to all the Aussie studio builders here

1.Plasterboard - Boral Firestop™ Plasterboard (16mm), Soundstop (10mm),
Enviro Soundstop (13mm), Ecostop (13mm, perforations).

Just wondering why you are planning on using very thin materials, such as 10mm and 13mm? Those aren't much use for serious isolation in studios. Much better to stick with 16mm plasterboard.

This is great for comparing different types:
http://www.how2plaster.com/sound/compare.html

Not really, as it only deals with single-leaf walls, which aren't much use for studios anyway: isolation is limited by mass law with single-leaf construction.

2. Greenglue or Quietglue Pro - this is mostly for sticking plasterboard
together

Ummmm.... actually, no it is not! It isn't glue at all, and is not designed to stick anything together. Its only purpose is to provide constrained layer damping between two layers of plasterboard or similar materials, to improve low frequency isolation performance. It is not glue, and cannot be used to "stick plasterboard together".

Batts should fill the cavity of the walls for an increase of up to 10 STC.

Up to 16 dB improvement, actually, if done right. But that should be TL, not STC. STC is a pretty lousy method of measuring isolation for studios.

Ceilings should also use multi layers of CSR Gyprock® Fyrchek™resiliently mounted
to the furring channels.

You only need resilient mounts if the ceiling joists are not fully decoupled from the outer leaf. If the ceiling is correctly constructed as a proper MSM structure, then no resilient mounting is required.

and 1X 20mm RC on all the walls in the middle.

I guess I'm confused! earlier you said that you are planing on using "two separate studs to support the walls", which implies that you are building proper isolated, decoupled MSM walls. If that is true, then why do you also need resilient channel? One or the other, but not both. You cannot decoupled twice: if the leaf is decoupled then it is decoupled and trying to decouple again just wastes time and money.

Not to sure if we will need to strengthen the existing structure will a
steel framing to be able to hold the extra mass of the insulation and
plasterboard we intend to fix to it? - my feelings are 'yes'

"Feelings" are a dangerous thing in construction! If you don't know for sure, then hire a structural engineer to come inspect what you have, look at what you are planning to do, and tell you exactly what structure you need to put in place to do it. You cannot guess here: you will be putting up tons (literally) of building materials around you and above your head. Just hoping that it will stay in place and not come down on you is not a good plan. "Hope" won't keep it in place: only a proper structure will keep it there!

can get 100x50mm too, I guess the smaller stuff will be cheaper?

Cheaper is not better here! You need AT LEAST 100x50 for that kind of mass. But once again, the structural engineer is the only guy who can tell you what you can do and not do, and what dimensions you need for all structural members.



- Stuart -

Thanks for the reply Soundman2020, you have made much more sense of things.

The list was to give a overview of different products available in Australia for my peeps to keep a lookout for bargains and opportunities that may be worthwhile. You have highlighted my famous (to some) sometimes stupidity, which often highlights things for me to learn.

Yep the Fyrchek 16mm plasterboard is the best bet.

Green[Glue] QuietGlue Pro - thanks for the heads up on that one. I guess that one can sometimes get by the common chogee?, with glue being in both products names and all..
And thanks for the rest of the input you have made.

Im getting a better idea of materials and their proper application now. Have also had another meeting with Dad and he is getting into it!!! He has a bunch of materials for me to pick up from the farm down south and he rekons he has a fair idea of how to build this and probably wants to give me his best - bless him! Great to have dads extensive knowledge and experience on side!! Yep, we are going with the double leaf MSM method by strengthening the buildings existing corrugated walls with timber framing and adding plasterboard , >> Air cavity filled with the Batts, >> then another wall with more plasterboard layers. So the ceilings will also be the same MSM, so no need for resilient channels.
Does this mean I can remove the existing resilient channels on the walls and ceiling, if we are going to make a new framing?

Here is what i have been designing in sketchup: > Improving on this - I should just go for 2X16mm plasterboard, optionally with Greenglue between layers, otherwise a deadsheet material or similar. Put some Batts in the air cavity,and maybe? remove the r-channel.

Will have to update dad on these latest posts.
cheers

Improving on this - I should just go for 2X16mm plasterboard, optionally with Greenglue between layers, otherwise a deadsheet material or similar. Put some Batts in the air cavity,and maybe? remove the r-channel.

1) Yup! 2) Yup! 3) Nope! 4) Yup! 5) Maybe!

OK, that probably isn't very clear

1) ("I should just go for 2X16mm plasterboard,") Yup!
12mm is not much use for isolation: too thin, too flexible, mass too low, resonance too high, etc. Just go with 16mm. Yes, there is a partly-true semi-myth that if you put dissimilar materials together, you can gain extra isolation because of the offset in the coincidence dip. whil this is true in theory, frankly the gain is so slight as to hardly be worthwhile, and in any case it is up in the region of the spectrum where you already have good isolation with an MSM wall. Better to go with the extra mass, stiffness and thickness from the 16mm.

2) ("optionally with Greenglue between layers,") Yup!
If you can afford it, the sure! It will work to help isolate the lower frequencies, which is where all your problems will be anyway, so any help you can get for the low end is worthwhile. The only issue is price: GG ain't cheap,. but it does work as advertised.

3) ("otherwise a deadsheet material or similar") Nope!
I assume you mean something like MLV, or maybe roofing felt? Save your self some money (and hassle), and forget that. MLV is just mass, not meant to constrained layer damping. Roofing felt, even less so. If you can't afford GG but still need better isolation, then just add another layer of drywall. Much more effective.

4) ("Put some Batts in the air cavity") Yup!
For sure! As thick as you can afford, and as allowed by your local building code / fire code.

5) ("remove the r-channel.") Maybe!
Which RC are you referring to? The stuff labeled "RC Strip" in your diagram, to which the corrugated metal is attached? If so, and assuming that the wall already exists, that most likely isn't RC! Much more likely to be plain old hat channel or metal framing. They do look similar, but are not the same. Only RC is specifically designed with acoustic isolation in mind. RC decouples, the others do not. You should confirm what it is before deciding what to do with it...

But overall, you seem to have the idea right.


- Stuart -

Thanks for confirming things with this design and the materials, Soundman2020. The Green Glue will be very important to help isolate low frequencies, which I produce much of being a bass player and DJ that plays and produces dub, reggae, drum'n'bass, jungle, hip hop, dubstep...very basswise musics. The kiks on the electronic drum kit also can have quiet a bit of low end boom and ommph!!!

I think it may be just 'hat channel' on the existing walls and ceiling? here are some pics: hope these pics show clearly.
The hat channel seems to be there to hold/attach the corrugated metal sheets to form a wall. I dont think it is there for support or strength? We will be strengthening the structure by building the first frame up against the corrugated metal walls and ceiling. Shall we remove the hat channel, or build around it?

cheers

I think it may be just 'hat channel' on the existing walls and ceiling?

sure looks like it to me! Definitely not RC-1!

I dont think it is there for support or strength?

I'm not so sure! I wouldn't play with it: there's a reason for it. It might just be for attaching drywall, or it might be for something else (stiffening the metal, maybe?). Get someone who knows what they are doing, such as a local contractor, building inspector, or structural engineer, to take a look and tell you what it is there for, and if you can take it off or not. The roof one especially seems to be part of the structure. The other two might just be for adding drywall, but check with an expert before you take anything out.

My 0.02. Brien might have a better take on that, if he's around.


- Stuart -

what does RC-1 means & you have to be sure !


[SPAM SIGNATURE DELETED BY MODERATOR]
[RC-1 means "Resilient Channel type 1", and yes I am sure]

I am also curious what RC-1 means? I had this same issue a year back. I did a lot of research and came up with quite a few places that sell soundproofing stuff. One place that I remember that definitely has the sound blankets kind of soundproofing that you would need are at that site. I am pretty sure that some of the other suggestions people have made would also work. Just depends on if you want to make one or buy one. I have also heard of using foam. Never tried it though.

[SPAM SIGNATURE DELETED BY MODERATOR]
[ Sound blankets? For "soundproofing"? Superior to RC-1? Are you serious? ]

It's a really big challenge to do these constructions well. I ran across this today and hope it will useful to you.

[SPAM SIGNATURE DELETED BY MODERATOR]
[ 3 SPAMMERS IN A ROW! ALL CHIMING IN ON THE SAME THREAD! HOW CUTE...]

Would anyone happen to know where to get some duct liner (for silencer boxes) in Melbourne?
I can't seem to find anything online, and the search function here isn't bringing up much.
Thanks in advance!