John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hi,

My project is to make myself a homestudio in this barn:

I have absolutly no experience in this field,
what I know comes from reading Rod Gervais' book and some articles, and the information on this forum.
However I wanna do this as good as possible and that's what I came here for.
To get some discussion going, ask some questions and hopefully get some advice and guidance.

I'm planning to record music (drum-bass-guitars-rock) in this studio as well as rehearse with my band.
The rehearsing part is probably the loudest and most annoying part for the neighbours so I want to attain as much isolation as possible in my budget.

I've drawn the barn in sketchup and,
as a starting point put the "Small studio in 3D" from John Sayers inside the existing walls.

The scaled studio fits quit nicely in this barn.

The floors are bricks and stones laid on the ground.

I think the existing walls are allready interesting to get some isolation.
They are 30cm wide brick walls.
The neighbours are at about 15 meters away.
Sound sources are the railway which is fortunately not intensely used,
and the road, but there's a house between the road (light traffic) and the studio.

The roof is I think the biggest isolation concern:

I hope this picture is detailed enough to see how the roof is built.

This outer leaf that is allready there (walls + roof) is not airtight at all on the sides,
and the roof is just an eternit fiber cement panel.
I have talked this through with an architect and an engineer,
they came to the solution of buiding a structure inside the existing walls in concrete blocks,
with a concrete ceiling. This structure would be standing on a new concrete floor which does not touch the existing walls.
Then building the studiovolumes inside that with metal studs and drywall.
This solution is based on the problem that within my budget I can not have a new roof so every building element needs to get in by the door.
Which means no large steel or wooden beams.

What is your opinion on this ?
Is it creating a 3-leaf wall ?
Is there another budgetfriendly method that has no 3-leaf drawback ?


My budget: I'd like to keep the construction plus treatment plus heating and cooling under 20.000€

on the ceiling, you might be able to put an isolation ceiling on top of the brick walls which will help there and leave the space above open for ducting etc. can you re-arrange any of the interior dividing walls?

As I understand it the plan the architect is proposing is:
Building a wall with concrete blocks inside the brick walls,
(he doesn't want to use the existing brick walls because of stability issues)
Inside that second structure comes a metalstud structure with drywall.
Leaving a gap between both walls of 17cm (6,7 inch).
On top of those concrete walls comes a ceiling with a minimum weight of 360kg/m2
Underneath that ceiling comes a metalstud structure with the same drywall.


@gullfo
I can and I plan to completely remove the inside wall 'A' in this picture.


Thanks for your ideas.

so the interior block/concrete wall and ceiling would be separate from the brick walls? that would be good. then the interior steel frame and drywall could be lightweight (single layer) (on those walls) to act as absorbers without creating a triple leaf issue. any interior walls should follow this model (block/concrete + lightweight framed skin) if possible. dampen air cavities with light (15kg/m3) insulation and use the rigid insulation inside.

Thanks Glenn,

so the interior block/concrete wall and ceiling would be separate from the brick walls?

Yes, brick wall and concrete wall are independent.
The only non-air connection is through the ground.
The concrete blocks are standing on a concrete slab.
The concrete slab comes over the existing floor, which is bricks and stones on top of compacted earth.

Dampen air cavities with light (15kg/m3) insulation and use the rigid insulation inside.

Could you please explain a bit more ?
Rockwool in space 2 ?
Where does the rigid insulation come ?

Maybe I should remove the bricks and stones from the floor so the concrete slab sits on the compacted earth ?

Will this double wall effectively insulate the studio to a neighbour who is about ten metres further ?

if you can make the concrete/block wall sit on its own footing separately that would be good, then the interior treatment walls sit on the slab which is then decoupled and sealed from the isolation walls. in the space between the brick and concrete the light insulation will help dampen that cavity from resonances. on the inner space - if its an isolation wall - light insulation, if its a treatment wall use the rigid insulation/

Thanks Glenn.

I'm still thinking about the isolation value.
If we think of the brick walls as outer leaf, concrete walls as inner leaf, and the lightweight wall as absorbers/treatment.

Isn't this outer leaf an acoustic leak when we look at the roof ?

yes, you're ceiling needs to be as massive or nearly as massive as your walls - if you can do reinforced concrete across the ceiling that would be good. if not, then a lightweight ceiling with drywall and joists inside on the inner concrete and another sitting on the exterior wall should suffice.

I had a meeting with the architect,
and I asked him to review another plan:
Inside the brick wall a supporting steel beam structure,
which supports a concrete floor (without loading the brick wall).
Probably more expensive?

Quick question.....If you have to build a complete concrete structure within the old building, would it not be just as cost effective to remove the old building and start from scratch?

JimDaddyO wrote:Quick question.....If you have to build a complete concrete structure within the old building, would it not be just as cost effective to remove the old building and start from scratch?

If money is no option...sure, but money is always a pertinent part of what we do...so ...no it would not be cost effective.


Think about it like it is your money you are spending, it all gets clear from that point

JimDaddyO wrote:Quick question.....If you have to build a complete concrete structure within the old building, would it not be just as cost effective to remove the old building and start from scratch?

The roof stays on, that is a big difference in cost.

If you can retain the existing brick walls, create a new inner foot/slab to put the inner rooms on, that will likely be more cost effective than taking down the building and starting over. Depends on your existing footings etc. If this is an option. If not, this is where you start to balance money, time, isolation levels achieved, treatments etc.

ward wrote:Thanks Glenn,

so the interior block/concrete wall and ceiling would be separate from the brick walls?

Yes, brick wall and concrete wall are independent.
The only non-air connection is through the ground.
The concrete blocks are standing on a concrete slab.
The concrete slab comes over the existing floor, which is bricks and stones on top of compacted earth.

Dampen air cavities with light (15kg/m3) insulation and use the rigid insulation inside.

Could you please explain a bit more ?
Rockwool in space 2 ?
Where does the rigid insulation come ?

Maybe I should remove the bricks and stones from the floor so the concrete slab sits on the compacted earth ?

Will this double wall effectively insulate the studio to a neighbour who is about ten metres further ?

If it hasn't already been brought up...this assembly has multiple air spaces...this is not what you want. You want one hard barrier/and air space/another hard barrier.


Do not fight it.

xSpace wrote: If it hasn't already been brought up...this assembly has multiple air spaces...this is not what you want. You want one hard barrier/and air space/another hard barrier.
Do not fight it.

I am trying to get to the mass-air-mass system.
Obstacles are :
- the footing of the building is small, very small (we don't wan't to load the existing brick walls.
- there is no ceiling, so no top on the outer leaf.
- my architect wants a ceiling that can carry some weight. (if for instance someone should start using the attic to stock paper ...)
Please review the other photo's and drawings, they tell the story much clearer.
My english is very limited, sorry.

The architect had some time to review the steel beam structure option,
this is the result: