UAN - new Control Room build

[RJHollins]

What a wonderful resouce this site is !!

I'm a new member, and an opportunity has arrived to build a new Control Room in the basement.

I had worked some 25+ years as a professional audio engineer in some fine studios around the US. I had retired from the business and moved back to home [Western New York ... yes I know ... I've been counting on GLOBAL WARMING].

Anyways ... there had been issues on flooding due to power outages over the years, and the point came to just clear out all the added wooden walls, panelling, insulation and drop ceilings to get a clean fresh start.

I'm looking to build just a control room that I can use for mastering/mixing work.

I'm posting a preliminary floorplan for the area I have available in this basement.

ANY guidance would be much appreciated as I need to build ASAP.

Sincerely,
RJHollins

[Soundman2020]

Hi RJ, and welcome!

Your basic plan looks reasonable, but there are a couple of things that you could do to improve it.

First, your speaker/mix-position/room geometry isn't ideal. The theoretical best position for your head is at a point 38% of the distance between the front wall and back wall, and the theoretical worst point is 50%. On your diagram, you seem to be closer to 50 than 38. Of course, the 38% number isn't carved in stone, but it is a good starting point. Also, your "speaker triangle" is a bit off: the apex of the triangle should be a few inches behind your head, not inside your head: the idea is that the acoustic axes from the speakers should be aimed at your ears, not your eyes.

Next, you have a great space for soffit mounting your speakers, which could give you greatly improved overall sound: tighter bass, better sound-stage, better imaging, etc. It would be well worth thinking about that.

Third, your room ratio, volume, and dimensions are borderline: You have a very low ceiling, and you haven't even mentioned isolation yet, so that is going to be an issue. You are going to loose at least 2" for isolation, bringing your final inner-leaf ceiling height down to 6'10", which is not good, and that doesn't even consider your acoustic treatment. Is there any way you can gain more ceiling height?

Fourth, you seem to have a hole in your room wall! At the back, there is an item labeled "sump pump", but the room wall just stops there, and does not enclose the room! That needs to be fixed.

Finally, you didn't mention your isolation needs, but it would would be good to know that, to figure out what kind of wall and ceiling structure you need. Since you won't be tracking live instruments, only mixing and mastering, your needs probably aren't extreme, but it would still be good to know what they are!

- Stuart -

[RJHollins]

Hi RJ, and welcome!

First, your speaker/mix-position/room geometry isn't ideal. The theoretical best position for your head is at a point 38% of the distance between the front wall and back wall, and the theoretical worst point is 50%. On your diagram, you seem to be closer to 50 than 38. Of course, the 38% number isn't carved in stone, but it is a good starting point. Also, your "speaker triangle" is a bit off: the apex of the triangle should be a few inches behind your head, not inside your head: the idea is that the acoustic axes from the speakers should be aimed at your ears, not your eyes.

Hello Soundman2020,

Thank-you very much for looking at this! This is my preliminary layout, and as you observed, there are issues and limitations to deal with.

First you mentioned mix-position [38% distance]. I tried to get this calc right. but maybe my math skills have really fallen . The main interior walls have a length of 16'-6". taking 38% of that, I get 6.27, or about 6'-3". I measured that to ~ mid chair, as I tend to sit forward while working. These were just starting point measures. New walls have not been built, just trying to rough this out. Are my calculations or approach incorrect ?

Next, you have a great space for soffit mounting your speakers, which could give you greatly improved overall sound: tighter bass, better sound-stage, better imaging, etc. It would be well worth thinking about that.

ooww ... definitely consider this. But to keep it interesting, I'm also thinking of a new monitor system to put in this room.

Third, your room ratio, volume, and dimensions are borderline: You have a very low ceiling, and you haven't even mentioned isolation yet, so that is going to be an issue. You are going to loose at least 2" for isolation, bringing your final inner-leaf ceiling height down to 6'10", which is not good, and that doesn't even consider your acoustic treatment. Is there any way you can gain more ceiling height?

This was one of the main issue that influenced me NOT to do this But I now need a room to work in.

Not much I can do to change the height other than NOT going below the rafters. I'd like to improve the isolation from the upstairs [living room], but it appears that I can only do so much. I'll post a pic, but there are a million or two nails coming through the floor between these rafters [hardwoord floor above]. The only reasonable thing I could think of is line a layer of 2" ridged fiberglass up there first, then fill the rafters to the bottom with fluffy pink, and then fabric cover to the rafter bottom.

Fourth, you seem to have a hole in your room wall! At the back, there is an item labeled "sump pump", but the room wall just stops there, and does not enclose the room! That needs to be fixed.

YES ... there is a sump pump at that point. How to box that in has been a question. Originally I was planning to face the room to that wall [putting the pump into the left-front side of the room]. I've been kinda talked out of that, and now have the pump located in the rear-right corner. I was concerned about corner symmetry, especially for corner bass traps at the front.

Finally, you didn't mention your isolation needs, but it would would be good to know that, to figure out what kind of wall and ceiling structure you need. Since you won't be tracking live instruments, only mixing and mastering, your needs probably aren't extreme, but it would still be good to know what they are!

Located 'outside' this new room are the typical basement 'stuff'. Washer/dryer, dehumidifier, sump pump and plenty of water pipe on THAT side. I certainly would like to have good isolation from those things AND try to keep my 'noise' from becoming an issue in the rest of the house. My typical monitoring level is ~75-83 dB. And, of course, when ya get a nicely controlled room, it can be nice to turn it up at times

My contractor thought that the two new walls would be 2x6. The two concrete walls using 2x4" as furring strips [insulation in between]. The area around the sump pump is an issue. Possible there a double wall, or 2x8 and then some heavy isolation.

However ... after reading Gervais book on interior walls, I think we'll be changing that. For the new walls: the 2 separate frames [2x4] with 2 layers of drywall, and each wall filled with insulation may give better results.

oh ... that pump area needs to be open from the other side of the basement.

oups the plummer and electrician are here ... need to talk with them ... will be back soon.
THANK-YOU !!

[/quote]



I've included a pic of the sump pump area. You can see the markings in the floor from the old wall [soon to be a new wall]. Also, to the right side is the drain pipe from the garage. This will be cut off, reduced to a PVC ~2" pipe that will slant left to the back, and then down to the floor to drain into the pump hole [minor amount of water comes through that].

Also a pic of the 'ceiling' floor joist ... you can see a few of the several thousand nails that are coming thru.

Now working on an updated floor plan with a change to different wall structures. Still NOT sure what to do in that pump area. Box it in [wall type], or slant across [again, wall type].

Thanks for all help !!!

RJHollins

[RJHollins]

As mentioned ... there are always issues to resolve

I've enclosed 2 photos of the 'center load bearing beam'. This is the main dividing point between the CR wall and the rest of the basement.

Above this beam, which consist of 4 2x7-1/4" boards nailed together. The thickness is approx 6-1/2". Above this beam are the floor joists [which are 2x9" ]. This is all open space into the other side of the room. Obviously, these open spaces need to get closed up and acoustically sealed.

I don't have many good ideas on how to actually accomplish this, but thought if I placed on both sides of the main beam, two layers of drywall and have filled the 'inner space' with either plain insulation or fit multi layers of 2" rigid fiberglass in there. Then maybe caulk the edges ? There are some 14 such openings that must be dealt with.

Any great ideas, solutions are very welcomed !!!

Thanks

[xSpace]

"I've enclosed 2 photos of the 'center load bearing rafter'. This is the main dividing point between the CR wall and the rest of the basement.

Above this beam, which consist of 4 2x7-1/4" boards nailed together. The thickness is approx 6-1/2". Above this beam are the floor rafters"


Joists. Rafters support the roof of a building.

[RJHollins]

"
Joists. Rafters support the roof of a building.

Thank-you for the correction, Sir.

Now you know why I need much help with this!
so much to learn.

It's also amazing how quickly one can be forced to clear out a room due to mold/mildew !

[xSpace]

Hang in there boss...it all gets easier after it's over

[RJHollins]

Hang in there boss...it all gets easier after it's over

I hear yah

heck ... I can't even settle on WHICH direction I should have the monitors facing !!

I do want the monitors firing into the longer length.

The 'current' plan puts the sump pump hole into the back corner, which is along the main concrete basement wall. Originally I had thought to orient the opposite direction. But how to deal [box in] that pump area would break symmetry. I wondered if I could build away from that concrete wall to a line in FRONT of the pump, and would treat that area [a good 3' deep] as a possible trap. This would certainly change the room dimensions.

Just not sure what to do yet !

Really need some guidance

[Soundman2020]

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be an idea to make your room a little smaller, and move that wall over a fraction, so that the sump is completely outside of your room... It wouldn't take that much off the side, and might even improve your ratio.

- Stuart -

[RJHollins]

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be an idea to make your room a little smaller, and move that wall over a fraction, so that the sump is completely outside of your room... It wouldn't take that much off the side, and might even improve your ratio.

- Stuart -

To get the pump hole 'out of the way' I'd have to move the wall in about 2' to also get away from the upper-level garage drain pipe [drains into the sump pump]. We are going to cut and reduce that cast iron pipe [cause it's nasty], to about 2" PVC. But I'd still need to go around it.

Using the Main LB beam as a wall location would also allow closing in 2 support beams. [which was kinda nice]

Wish I could take better photo angles to convey ... i'll try.

Keep them suggestions coming !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soundman2020]

I'd have to move the wall in about 2' to also get away from the upper-level garage drain pipe [drains into the sump pump].

Not really: that pipe can be inside your rear MSM wall, so it won't be an issue. It doesn't look like it sticks out form the rear wall too far.

Could you do an accurate SketchUp model of that part of the room, showing the pipe and sump as well as possible, so we can play around with wall positions and angles?


- Stuart -

[Soundman2020]

taking 38% of that, I get 6.27, or about 6'-3". I measured that to ~ mid chair, as I tend to sit forward while working. These were just starting point measures. New walls have not been built, just trying to rough this out. Are my calculations or approach incorrect ?

OK, sounds right to me! As long as you did the math and got things roughly right, that's fine. It's probably just an optical illusion that makes the char look further back.

definitely consider this. But to keep it interesting, I'm also thinking of a new monitor system to put in this room.

I'd start by selecting your monitors, then build the room to suit them. What new monitors did you have in mind? It would be good make sure in advance that they can be flush mounted successfully!

I'd like to improve the isolation from the upstairs [living room], but it appears that I can only do so much.

You should be able to get reasonably good isolation, but it will cost you a little bit of height, something around 2", or maybe a bit less, depending on how much you need. Have you done any testing yet, to see how loud you are in that room, and how quite you need to be upstairs? I mean, using a sound level meter to measure the actual levels, not just guessing...

By the way, you probably already know this, but just to make sure: isolation is an "all or nothing" proposition. You can't just isolate your ceiling... you have to do the walls too.

The only reasonable thing I could think of is line a layer of 2" ridged fiberglass up there first, then fill the rafters to the bottom with fluffy pink, and then fabric cover to the rafter bottom.

That won't isolate much at all: it will treat the room very nicely, but it wont help to isolate it. Two different things...

I'm thinking that your best bet is with either resilient channel or with Rod's technique of interspersing your new ceiling joists between the existing floor joists, and aiming to get the top of your drywall just a half inch or so below those existing joists. That would eat the least amount of height possible. One other option is "inside-out" construction for your roof, but that might put the joists too low for comfort.

I've enclosed 2 photos of the 'center load bearing beam'. This is the main dividing point between the CR wall and the rest of the basement.

When you say that you have "ceiling height: 7'9"" and "floor to rafters: 7' ", what exactly are you measuring? To the bottom of your "'center load bearing beam'", or to the bottom of the joists above, or to the underside of the floor above?

I've been kinda talked out of that, and now have the pump located in the rear-right corner. I was concerned about corner symmetry, especially for corner bass traps at the front.

I think your orientation is fine like that, with the pump at the rear. I wouldn't change it.

Located 'outside' this new room are the typical basement 'stuff'. Washer/dryer, dehumidifier, sump pump and plenty of water pipe on THAT side. I certainly would like to have good isolation from those things AND try to keep my 'noise' from becoming an issue in the rest of the house. My typical monitoring level is ~75-83 dB. And, of course, when ya get a nicely controlled room, it can be nice to turn it up at times

Yup! OK, so I imagine you are looking at peak levels of around 90 to 95 dB, for argument's sake, but it would be good to check that with an actual sound level meter. Then also measure how quite you need to be in the rest of the house (and how loud that "basement stuff" is, when it all runs at once!). That will give you a rough goal for how much isolation you need.

My contractor thought that the two new walls would be 2x6.

Probably right, but I'm assuming he knows how to build an MSM wall? When he says "2x6" does he mean 2x6 on each leaf, or is he talking staggered studs? You might find that 2x4 is enough of you are talking two-leaf walls, but staggered 2x4s on a 2x6 base would be a reasonable second choice.

The two concrete walls using 2x4" as furring strips [insulation in between].

Bad idea: that will not decouple the inner leaf from the outer leaf! The inner-leaf frame cannot be attached to the existing concrete walls at all! It has to be built as a separate, free-standing stud frame, and cannot touch any of the existing structure at any point (except the floor, of course). Anything that bridges the gap between inner-leaf and outer-leaf will destroy (or at least seriously compromise) your isolation. the inner leaf has to be totally decoupled from the outer leaf, if you want good isolation.

However ... after reading Gervais book on interior walls, I think we'll be changing that. For the new walls: the 2 separate frames [2x4] with 2 layers of drywall, and each wall filled with insulation may give better results.

Yup! absolutely. Two-leaf MSM is the way to go. Full "room-in-a-room" design. Fully decoupled.

oh ... that pump area needs to be open from the other side of the basement.

Another reason to put it outside of your wall, not inside...

Question: That other room at the bottom of your diagram, directly in front of the window from the CR: Is that going to be a vocal booth, or a storage area, or what?

Here's a wild idea: How about of you rotate your CR 180°, slide it back so that it uses the space occupied by that "booth" room, then put the "booth" room at the other end, next to the sump pump, and make the "booth" room a bit smaller so that the pump sits just outside the door...

Not sure if I explained that well...


- Stuart -

[RJHollins]

Hi Soundman 2020,

Well, you covered alot of things ... but trying to use the 'quote' feature was getting to be a mess for me.

Let me respond to a few points you made to help clarify.

This is only a Control Room build. There are no OD booths or other small rooms. Other than the new CR, the rest will be a normal basement with W/D, heater, etc.

I posted a layout earlier. I used a program called Chief Architect. I do have v7 of SketchUP when that first came out, but hadn't really used it much. I'll re-install it and see if I can remember how to use it

As for new monitors ... well ... I'm considering something from the FOCAL line. Not sure about the soffet mounting. If I can treat this new room effectively, nearly ANY monitor I throw in there should sound good. Currently I have modified Tannoys [D.Sax], Altec Studio 1, Yamaha NS-10m, Auratone Cubes.

Besides a listening room ... I will use the room for mixing and mastering. There will be no recording work. My listening level is usually from 75 - 83 dB.

You've raised other points ... but let me try getting a SU file together.

Thanks

[xSpace]

"but there are a million or two nails coming through the floor between these rafters [hardwoord floor above]. The only reasonable thing I could think of is line a layer of 2" ridged fiberglass up there first,..."

Using 1/2" foam exterior sheathing would be a better solution in this cavity in your effort to develop a flat surface. Then install isolation material over that, then insulation to develop the upper side of your mass area.

[Soundman2020]

As for new monitors ... well ... I'm considering something from the FOCAL line. Not sure about the soffet mounting.

Soffit mounting is probably the single most important thing you can do in your room. The benefits are multiple, and very worthwhile. IF you are going to be doing critical listening in there (as in "mastering") then you probably should really consider soffit mounting. It solves several problems before you even start designing the rest of the room, and does wonders for clarity, sound stage, tightness, and most of all bass response. But not all speakers can be soffit mounted.

If I can treat this new room effectively, nearly ANY monitor I throw in there should sound good.

Not necessarily!

This is only a Control Room build. There are no OD booths or other small rooms.

OK; so what is this room then? That's what I'm referring to...

this-room.jpg

If that's not a booth, then what is the purpose of the window in the center of the CR front wall? That's what was making think it must be a vocal booth or some such.


- Stuart -