John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

What's up everybody, I hope your projects are coming along as for me I'm just getting ready to started on mine after I post a few more questions.

Ok todays question is can I use phonebooks for soundproofing?

The reason is because i have this crappy aluminum siding for my outer leaf and I was told by Steve that I need mass inside those walls and he suggested two or three pieces of sheetrock inside the walls for my outer leaf but by the looks of the walls it looks like I might need more then that so I was thinking what could I put inside those walls that can do the job but won't cost me that much and the phone books is what came to mind because they come in diffrent thickness and sizes and their free so do you think this will work? I was thinking for example

aluminum siding>soundboard/two phonebooks of diffrent thickness inside stud frame>sheetrock>insulation>gap>and then the inner wall

I was going to put this under walls -walls -walls but right now the topic is centered around splayed wall and I didn't want to confuse anybody with my crazy ideas so Steve if you read this can you give me your info on my idea or if you know your stuff like Steve can you give me your thoughts?

Thank You
Ozzie

P.S.
if my spelling or wording is off my bad I'm a little sick. I'll came back later and edit

I thin phone books would be too much of a fire hazard to start with .
Jim

Hey Ozzie, sorry you're not feeling so great, I hope it's nothing serious -

As to the phone book idea, I can't think of a way that would work. First of all, in order for a mass layer to work, it has to be airtight - I don't know how you would accomplish that with a bunch of multi-page phone books just butted up against each other.

Your best bet, if you can get that aluminum siding off without ruining it, is to take it off, put two layers of OSB on the frame, then wrap it with Tyvek house wrap and put the siding back on with new screws (the kind with the built-in rubber and metal washer) - then, insulate the stud cavities and either put up Resilient Channel and two layers of drywall, or build a separate frame (no RC) and your two layers of drywall. Either way would give you good isolation... Steve

I'm feeling much better thanks for your concern Steve.

I was thinking more along the lines like a box going inside my outer leaf. I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. Lets see how can I explain this uh something like a real trap but instead of insulation in it, it would have phonebooks. Everything would be caulked and where the phone book end I'll put a stud and repeat the process over again. The example that I'm talking about is the one on the left side of my drawing ( stud>Phonebook>stud>phonebook>stud>Phonebook>etc. )

On the right hand side of my drawing you can see what I talking about as far as my real trap type box that would go into the wall. Starting with the osb board or whatever it might be in the future to the sheetrock.( ex. osb>phonebooks>sheetrock>and then the insulation after everything is caulk and sealed.

I don't think I'm making my self very clear I'll try to build what I'm talking about and take a picture of it and then let ya see if it would work because taking the siding off is out of the question and as far as fire hazards if it's cheaper all I got to say is let that mutha burn.

Thanks
Ozzie

I agree with Steve- anything you do with phone books is going to require a hell of a lot of caulk. That's the big stumbling block- you gotta get the massive stuff to be airtight of the low freq's will go right around it.

Bonus points for thinking outside the box tho!

Kase
www.minemusic.net

Steve-What if I put the two layers of osb or sheetrock aginst (inside the studs) the siding like you suggested under walls-walls-walls and then put two phonebooks on top of that and then the insulation after the caulking?

EX.
tin>osb>sheetrock>phonebook>phonebook>insulation >gap>inner leaf

Thank you
Ozzie

Ozzie, seriously the phone book thing is a BAD idea - for the amount of caulk (the good kind) that you'd need to seal that layer and NOT make it into another leaf (because of air pockets) you'd be better and CHEAPER to just put another layer of sheet rock.

IF that aluminum crap is so flimsy, what's the problem with temporarily removing it? Are you trying to keep the neighbors from guessing what you're doing here? If that's it, then putting a couple mass layers between studs is your only good alternative. Otherwise, you'd be better off having that outer mass go un-broken across the OUTSIDE of the studs, sound-wise.

We're not gonna "rat you out" to either the neighbors OR the beaurocrats, but I'm having a hard time seeing what your thoughts are - if you can be straight up with your motives here, it would sure help us help you... Steve

Steve - my motives for trying to use phonebooks is money and better isolation ( I don't want my family and neighbors to be b***hing at me ) but I guess that's out the window. After taking down the tin from the inside I don't really want to go through all that again because it took forever to take down and plus, the tin got all out of shape but I'll think about it and see what I can do as far as trying to take down the tin. I just don't want to put all that material up and have to leave it here if we ever have to move.

Do you know what I can use that is cheap but would help me get better isolation?

Do you think two layers of sheetrock or soundboard will do the job for my outer and inner walls? Remeber I'll be recording bands about 17 ft. away from my house that has no insulation in the walls and about two house down I have a cranky neighbor.

Thank You
Ozzie

P.S.
Does anybody need 400 phonebooks?

Does anybody need 400 phonebooks?

There's a trick to ripping big, fat phone books in half. It's not too hard to get the hang of, either. I taught a 90lb ex-girlfriend how to do it years ago, and she did it while we were out at a bar once, in front of a couple biker friends of hers. It was classic.

So anyway, keep a couple of them around, and when your cranky neighbor comes over, let him see you tear one of them in half, roaring like a bear.

Problem solved.

Kase
www.minemusic.net

Ozzie, there's a good reason why we keep mentioning sheet rock, also known in different locations as wallboard, gypboard, gyprock, gypsum wallboard, plasterboard, etc - it is the cheapest and BEST material going when it comes to building walls.

For wall paneling that will be subjected to outside moisture (but not really WET) such as under your tin (but on the same side of the studs) you should use something that resists moisture better. Such as OSB, possibly with a layer of "wet area" sheet rock UNDER the OSB - this type of sheet rock was developed for places like bathrooms and kitchens, where walls will be exposed to more moist conditions - the stuff is more expensive than regular sheet rock by about $1-2 per sheet, but won't crumble if it gets damp.

So for your outside walls, the best REASONABLE cost way would be to remove the tin (sorry, I know you don't want to do this and I understand, I didn't write the laws of physics) - and then, from the outside in, Tin/Tyvek wrap/OSB/Green sheet rock/Studs (with insulation) then 5/8" sheet rock/1/2" sheet rock. Putting Resilient Channel on the studs before doing the inner layers will improve isolation at screaming guitar frequencies by around 6-8 dB, but won't change isolation for drums at all. So if you're tight for money, the RC should be the first thing to NOT do.

Another approach you might want to consider is to IGNORE the tin, put two layers of wallboard on the INSIDE of your studs, and build another frame inside that wall (not touching) - fill with insulation (5-6 dB better than without) and put two layers of sheet rock on the INNER frame. IF you have the space, this might work better for you.

Keep in mind that sound proofing is NEVER cheap or easy, and it isn't practical to try to "take it with you" , unless you build a sound booth like the ones Whisperroom sells. Those can't achieve the level of isolation you'd need for drums, but a big enough one inside a house might come close as far as neighbors are concerned.

I wish I could give you a cheap easy way to get there, but if that were possible I'd probably be in my own new studio already and NOT spending as much time helping others get theirs... Steve

Good news Steve,
my brother said he might help me out with the outside and put some money and material into my studio. Even if he doesn't ,it seems it might be easier to redo the outside. My brother builds storage sheds and I sell them, we use this product called smart panel siding or smart siding (tm) panel siding on our builds, it's like the T-1-11 but primed and treated. I'll try to post a link but i don't know if it will work

http://www.lpcorp.com/products/products ... ductID=396

The smart panel siding cost $15 for a 4x8 sheet 1/2 inch and the osb cost about $15 also and if I did what you said "Tin/Tyvek wrap/OSB/Green sheet rock/Studs" I'll be spending the same amount of money but i was thinking what if I didn't take down the tin siding and put the smart panel siding and the osb over it?
EX.
Smart panel siding>osb>tin>stud with insulation> then the inner leaf
will that work? if not I guess I'll take down the damn tin siding

Plus, I have some baby birds That live above the walls I will hate to make them move

Thank You
Ozzie

P.S.
I'll try to post some pictures of my tin siding to show you how bad they are.

Putting ANY siding on TOP of a tin panel is a BAAAAD idea - all you'll accomplish is to worsen sound isolation due to difficulty of sealing, and cause moisture problems because the tin will sweat, it's not hermetically sealed if there are holes in it, and it's in the wrong place structurally by being UNDER the siding. The order I suggested is what actually WORKS. I don't know how else to tell you this.

I'm glad you may get some help from your bro - I think If I were you, I'd use that smart siding (I'd still paint it after putting it up) over a layer of OSB and just throw the damn tin away -

Baby birds usually don't take very long to move on, maybe you could wait?

Check these links -

http://bma-sales.com/why-housewrap.htm

http://bma-sales.com/Installation.htm

This info would also apply to proper ways to install Tyvek, a DuPont trade named house wrap product... Steve

How would you get enough phone books? You'd need a lot of them.

Seriously - that sounds like way too much of a fire hazard to pack your walls with paper. It would be next to impossible to seal it and certainly in terms of mass a phone book isn't that heavy for it's size. Use drywall - much easier, heavier and fireproof.

I put drywall inside the studs of the outer wall, on top of a layer of heavy roofing felt. Caulking is a hassle - I discovered half way through an easier way - run a thin bead of expanding foam around the edges of the drywall between the studs - seals it airtight and holds in the drywall.

Steve - a few quick questions:

Can I use the green sheet rock behind the smart panel siding?
EX.
smart panel siding>tyvek wrap>green sheet rock>studs with insulation> gap >inner leaf

What if I can't find tyvek wrap can I use roofing felt paper or clear plastic sheet?


Thank You
Ozzie

Ozzie- we spec out 15# roofing paper for that use all the time.

Kase
www.minemusic.net