John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hi,
first time posting wondering if anyone can help. I have a working studio in my basement. Did the auralex thing on the walls, the room itself sounds ok. However as the family gets bigger the walls get thinner. So out of necessity am in need of an upgrade.
Questions:

1) Ran into a website (www.quietsolution.com) they claim that their top of the line material (a type of drywall) has an stc rating of 38 compared to regular drywall which they say has a rating of twenty. does anyone have any experience with this stuff? It is very expensive.

2) When constructing a wall using multiple layers of drywall, and in following the advice mentioned on this forum of using different types. Is durock together with regular drywall an example of this or are we talking different thicknesses, or both?

3) my studio is directly below the kitchen. We're talking noise from pipes and kids footsteps above. I was wondering if an RC/insulation/drywall constructed ceiling is enough to make it tolerable in the studio ( I know that that is not very specific). Or if there is something else that I need to do. Need to be able to track and mix.

4) I'd like to have walls and ceiling that rate at an stc of 50+ am I dreaming?

5) Finally, if it will cost me too much/or if it is flat out not practical to have a studio under these conditions, I am prepared to do a decent job all be it temporarry, while I prepare to build something "real", a seperate structure away from the house on my property.


Any feedback is appreciated,
Thankyou,
David

David, the quiet solutions stuff looks like it would work well, but the price is really steep. I might consider using it if hiring things done, as the labor to duplicate their effect would add up. If you're doing it yourself, however, then you can get there with a sandwich of MDF between two gypsum wallboards for around $35 a sheet instead of hundreds.

(2) Durock is heavy and dense, and expensive compared to drywall. It should work well as a sandwich material, but I'm not sure about fastening. The stuff takes special screws, is hard to cut accurately, crumbles easily, and is hard to find in full sheets. It's usually used around bathtubs for tile backer, and is good for moisture locations - probably because of the typical use, it normally comes in 3' x 5' sheets which don't line up with ANY standard stud spacing. I would stay away from it except for bathroom tiled walls...

(3) Short of mixing when the kids are in bed and NOT in the kitchen, this can be a real bear. The pipe noise will travel, is hard to isolate after the fact - Footfall noise is sometimes easeier to control by redoing the upper floor with a layer of homosote and new flooring first - then, using a suspended resilient ceiling frame below with multiple layers of drywall and filling cavities with insulation works reasonably well. Getting this area under control enough for quiet tracking and mixing could be difficult.

(4) That STC is very doable - however, sound proofing is a "total package" deal - the weakest link = the final result. So if your doors leak, or your pipes transmit sound along the framing, or your wallboard surface isn't isolated from structure, or your floor flanks noise into the framing (which then vibrates its wall covering in another room), or your windows aren't double glazed and heavy glass and sealed, etc, it all subtracts from the total package. There are ways around most or all of these problems, but it takes a complete picture of what's there in order not to miss one vital problem.

(5) A separate, purpose-built facility is ALWAYS preferable from a performance standpoint - if you can afford it and have the space, that's the way I'd go. In fact, I've tried building a room into a barn, and using a spare bedroom - now, I'm designing a separate free-standing facility myself. The shell will be 8" thick concrete, done with the foam "leggo" blocks on a slab, then inner walls of gypsum for the second mass - I'm guesstimating an STC rating in the area of 65-70 dB when complete, but it won't be fast - especially since I'll be doing all but the concrete work mostly by myself in order to afford it at all.

If you can post a drawing of your existing construction between kitchen and studio, it would help for discussion... Steve

Steve, thank you so much!

I am scrambling to get you a drawing or pictures. I have a mac and was wondering what design software you guys use and if it is mac compatible or if you know of a similar software for the mac.

Basically I am getting pretty desperate with this sound isolation thing. I am actually a tennis pro but during the off season (now) I dedicate myself to writing songs and recording in my studio. But like today we had like 30 little girls upstairs, running and screaming! ( my wife is the Brownie leader) Anyway, I can't go on this way. So I have decided to build a studio away from the house. In the mean time however, while I am figuring out how to go about doing this, I need to fix the room that I have ( I was badly hit by a flood that destroyed the carpeting and forced me to tear down parts of the walls, mostly wood panelling)

First off I want to tackle one wall, to see if this is something that I can do myself. It is a wall in a adjacent room to the studio. My question is when you mention doubling up on drywall, you say to use different types, can you please be specific. Also I read your post about the gypsum companies test on glue vs. screws, what type of glue is this. This "gluing" only pertains to sandwiching pieces of drywall together after the first piece has been either directly screwed into the studs with lots of caulking in between or via RC.

Thanks again, and I will get you a drawing or picture of the ceiling.

David

PS. How big is the studio that you are building?

For drawing software - first, no prejudice here (yeah, right) but I've never been able to understand why Mac brags about being the "graphics king" but can't even include a rudimentary drawing program like Paint for windows. Oh well - Unfortunately, nothing I know of that's used by any of our membership on PC is Mac compatible, at least not directly. I've found a couple of possible shareware programs, but have not gotten feedback from "mackies" as to whether they work or not.

Here's one possible source -

http://www.caddepot.com/dcd1/CAD_Demos/ ... _Programs/

The other thing you might consider (more expensive) is getting a copy of Virtual PC from Microsoft (they recently bought the company) - my son uses macs in his graphics biz (with photoshop, illustrator, etc) and has had no problems using Virtual PC with any PC software. I even read a test report on some music software a year or so ago, and they used a powerbook with Virtual PC running Sonar - not even a hiccup if I remember correctly. Still, not really cheap.

"30 little girls upstairs, running and screaming! ( my wife is the Brownie leader)" - It's obvious to me that your wife isn't baking the right kind of "brownies" - Ms Toklas might be able to help calm the little darlings a bit -

Seriously, that kind of noise, especially footfall noise from above, I wish you good luck. You're wise to be looking at a separate facility, either for you or your wife's brownie group.

By different types of wallboard, I mean different thicknesses mostly. If two layers, 5/8 and 1/2" on one leaf of the wall and double 5/8 on the other - if three layers, look for 3/8 for the middle layer (may have to special order though)

Since I wrote the parts on gluing of layers, I've come to the conclusion that I would almost NEVER use glue. I think you'd be better off just putting fewer fasteners in all layers except the last, to minimise flanking through the fasteners. Then, 3 PCF insulation (either rigid fiberglas or rockwool) in wall, RC on the other side, patches of spun fiberglas between the RC strips so they dampen the wallboard on the RC, making sure that NO pieces of wallboard contact the floor (caulking only)

If using light steel studs (non load bearing) then no RC is needed, they decouple through flexibility. Heavier steel studs, use RC same as wood, and same insulation plan.

My eventual "toy box" will most likely end up at 40 x 60 feet with 16 foot eaves, so I can get a good high ceiling in the Tracking room and use some of that height in the CR for bass trapping, etc - I'm not far enough along on the dozen other major projects around here to have solidified plans yet, only a rough idea of basic wall construction and the amount of room available for a free standing building. Outer walls will be 8" ICF construction, like this

http://www.logixicf.com/

Inside that will be about 8" air space and steel studs with 2-3 layer drywall, along with a sound lock door for load-ins and one for walk-ins.

I've made quite a few other decisions, but it's getting late so I better wrap this up - please let me know if any of those cad options work for the mac... Steve

Steve, first of all thanks for all your help. I checked out those links, and will demo some of that software. I do have virtual p.c. and have acquired a program named "punch" to try.

I am very focused on tackling that wall in the room next to my studio and want to gather my materials. Even hired one of my tennis assistants, who is also into recording to come help out.

I do have a few questions however

This wall sits between the hall way and the room next to my studio.

structure: 2*3 (not 2*4's) stud framed wall. Pink stuff (fiber glass wool) inside, thin wood paneling outside. I think it has an stc of about "8".

So... to reconstruct,

1) leave frame as is. Or would it really pay to go with metal studs?


2) Leave the insulation or replace with thermafiber blankets?


3) Attach RC ( on the room side of the wall), using screws. Do I put anything between to RC and the studs? (caulking or glue?)

4) attach 5/8 drywall to RC being careful not to have any screws go into the studs.


5) Attach 1/2 inch drywall to the 5/8's.

"Since I wrote the parts on gluing of layers, I've come to the conclusion that I would almost NEVER use glue. I think you'd be better off just putting fewer fasteners in all layers except the last, to minimize flanking through the fasteners."

So I don't use glue despite your "warning"? Ok, so then less fasteners (does this mean screws?) on to outside (1/2 inch piece).

6) the floor in this room is a Home depot bought laminate wood flooring with an "acoustical pad underneath. How much distance do I leave between drywall and floor? Between drywall and ceiling joists? ( the wall and joists probable won't line up, see below)

7) What constitutes acoustical caulking, any specific one?

On the hall side of the wall, I guess that I can't get away just leaving the wood paneling? Put one 5/8 drywall or do I add the 1/2 also?


9) Hollow door needs to be replaced with a solid door (anything special?)

caulk everywhere and use striping to seal.

10) There is a space between the existing wall and the joists above , ( because I am adding to the wall that gap will diminish, but will still be several inches) that run parallel to the wall. I can probably using a strip of extra drywall there and maybe screw that to the joist and caulk where it meets the other piece of drywall?

Last, and I'm sure that I have missed something, are there any types of drywall (brand) that I should look for, same goes with any of this stuff.

If I use glue in any of this process, what type?

screw size?

Thanks again, and may the Gods reward you for all your help.

David

Ok, in re-reading your post, I think that I had it backwards, as far as adding layers of drywall, maybe you can elaborate. I attach the first piece to the RC, ( can you tell me roughly the distance between screws, or other "fasteners") and then what is your recomended method of attaching second layer? So it's one 5/8 and one 1/2. You don't recomend using homasote?

That's a pretty big place you are building, I have been thinking 30*40, (thought that was big)

Thanks,
David

Out of energy for tonite, have you checked the sticky section and downloaded the USG manual? Best free drywall course available. I'll hopefully get a chance tomorrow to catch up on all your questions -

My live room will be 37' x 26' x 16' high, with even modal distribution clear down to 20 hZ - then, I want a drum room large enough for my 8 piece kit plus djembes, congas, timbales, etc, and a decent live ambience. Add to that separate iso's for leslie, amps, and vox, a CR big enough for full midi production as well as surround, etc, plus separate instrument storage, machine room, tech room, dupe room, and it all adds up. I may have to stretch things even more by the time I figure out where everything will go.

I'll try tomorrow to do a thumbnail of wall construction, meantime you could re-read the "complete section" sticky if you haven't already... Steve

Thanks Steve,

D.

Started to try and make good on my promise of a "thumbnail", and realized I don't understand where things are in your area from your description. The only thing I'm relatively sure of is that you should start from scratch on that wall, Wrong paneling, wrong framing, wrong insulation, etc...

IF you have Virtual PC, you could download a trial copy of Smartdraw from smartdraw.com, and do some drawings on that - without them, I'm not visualizing what is where. I'd need an idea of how your ceiling is constructed (exact joist size/spacing, floor and subfloor material, pipe/duct locations, etc) as well as a floor plan and possibly an elevation or two.

Generally, you can use normal screw spacing (offset per layer) on all layers hung on RC, since the screws do NOT couple directly to studs the in-wall insulation will kill any minor flanking. Not true on directly mounted wallboard on wood (or STRUCTURAL grade metal) studs. On the solid mounted side of a wall, first layer will stay put with screws on 24" centers. Then mud, offset joints by 24" each way, rotate second layer 90 degrees, space EVERYTHING off floors and adjacent walls by 1/4", mud, tape, caulk (acoustic rated caulk ONLY), and finish. If you want walls that don't look amateurish and wavy, I'd recommend either doing drywall professionally for a few years or HIRING it done. (Or keep the lights down low so it doesn't show)

Check out Smartdraw, do some views and let's see what we can come up with... Steve

There are so many possibilites for wall designs (some of which actually WORK) that it would be much easier if I knew more about your situation before making suggestions.

Sooner you can show me, the sooner I can show you... Steve

Steve, sorry it took so long. the studio dimensions are 14.5' by 26 with 7' ceiling. The first picture is the wall in question (the actual studio is to the left of it)
as it turned out, they are 2* 4's, not 2* 3's as originally thought. On the other side is a hallway. http://homepage.mac.com/dlemair1/PhotoAlbum2.html

2) same wall (hollow door)

3) The wall that divides the two rooms. (the studio on the other side and a workout room with an oil heating unit on this side)This is a 2*3 stud wall, no insulation, and 1/4 inch wood paneling. This is the wall that needs to have the highest stc rating! You can see the open ceiling, the studio is the same construction but covered with a 1/4 inch of drywall, with kitchen above.

4) same wall

5,6,7) ceiling joists


8,9,10)
shows studio ceiling 1/4 inch drywall with textured from hell paint job. 9) shows air duct to left.

Thanks Steve, ( if you need more info, please let me know, I will post a floor plan)

David

Yeah, the floor plan (existing and proposed) would be a big help. I didn't quite get what you meant by where/what that one wall was going to be; I spent some of my school time as a TA in english plus have done a bit of tech writing in various jobs, and STILL can't always get my point across without waving my arms or using paper and pencil... Steve

Steve,
I uploaded a basic floor plan which can be found with the pictures of the disaster in question. Please click on that same link included in my previous post. Hope that makes things a little clearer,

Thanks,

David

David, your pix look like you're maybe a bit further along than posts here would indicate - can you update me on what you still need to know? I'm assuming you still want max isolation to the upstairs, as well as to the workout room?

Generally, if you're using single frames with paneling on both sides, you need Resilient Channel on one side of the frame. Using the light, NON-structural, NON-load bearing steel studs eliminates this - using double wood frames, each with only one side paneled (multi-layers OK) would also eliminate the need for the RC.

With multiple layers of sheet rock, you can widen the spacing of fasteners (except where RC is used) to 24" for the first course, but normal 12" spacing for the last course of wallboard. This is only recommeded for wood studs, because it cuts down on the number of fastener penetrations into the frame - this in turn cuts down on flanking noise through the wall. This wider spacing is NOT recommended where there is RC, because the RC isolates the wallboard from the frame and the inside insulation compensates for the slight loss in wall performance that might be caused. I've seen no hard facts on this being a problem either way, except on solidly mounted wallboard on SINGLE framed walls.

Gotta go for now, when you get a chance let me know what you still need... Steve