In-wall or soffit mounting monitors?

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:42 am

Hello there speaker experts, great forum, great ideas!

While I wait for someone kind enough to help me with a couple of questions for my design post that you can find here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10950, I researched the idea of soffit mounting (flush) the speakers in the control room.

The ideas and designs I found on this forum are based on creating a separate construction from the existing walls and place the monitors in there.

My design for the control room's front wall is based on a double frame wall, so I was thinking, is it possible to use the inner leaf of that wall for flushing the monitors? What would the pros and cons of such a design be?

Thanks in advance for your time.

John

PS: I would really love to see a sticky post for a list of monitors available in the market that are compatible for soffit mounting or a list of monitors that forum members used/use... Just an idea...

luvtorekord · Post by **luvtorekord** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:57 pm

I would really love to see a sticky post for a list of monitors available in the market that are compatible for soffit mounting or a list of monitors that forum members used/use

I totally agree. This would be MOST helpful.

Post by **xSpace** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:53 am

I wonder how long it would take to search this information out and create the prototype for this wanted sticky?

No one has more insight into a problem then the one with the problem, and both you guys seem to need the information?

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:29 pm

xSpace wrote:I wonder how long it would take to search this information out and create the prototype for this wanted sticky?

Too long, or at least longer than someone that knows already of, let's say, 10 models that he can input for that sticky right away...

xSpace wrote:No one has more insight into a problem then the one with the problem, and both you guys seem to need the information?

That was very helpful Brien, thanks a lot man, for identifying that we (and many more), indeed, have A problem of having a hard tme choosing the right pair of monitors for the job! If we didn't have that "problem", we wouldn't be asking now, would we?

Brien, seriously, you have to lighten up a bit man, you always have the choice of NOT answering a question, so, please, spare us with the irony and sarcasm that most of your replies contain. A sincere, friendly advice...

Ro · Post by Ro » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:37 pm

funny, here's a quote from your design thread

jlemon wrote:
xSpace wrote: Trucks and cars, horns blasting and tires squelling not to mention structure borne and moving elevators can create some thick vibrations and mechanical thunder that can be awful to deal with for isolation and an acoustic environment. Hours of operation may be all day long and this too would not help your cause.
Always nice to meet friendly people like you Brien! The thing is that we are not going to rent the parking spaces by the hour, it's gonna be more like a per month renting, so the number of traffic in and out of the garage will be far less than, let's say for example, a supermarket garage where cars go in and out by the hour. I have thought about the isolation the studio would require and I know that it would require more work (and money) for isolating external sources than internal ones but that's something I'll be ready (and capable I hope) to face when we get to that part of the project. I'm not ready (knowledge-wise) yet to discuss this aspect of the project, sorry my friend, but in my humble opinion, it can be done.

Ro · Post by Ro » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:39 pm

now, for the questions.

Using your inner leaf would not be such a good idea since sound will escape through the back and fill your cavity. Not good.
Also it will kill your isolation factor, the noise from your monitors will now only have to deal with the outer layer.

Sure you could soffit in the innerlayer and build the wall "around" the speaker, but you'll end up with a wider airspace behind the walls (think about it) and you will set the innerwall in motion more.

Post by **xSpace** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:45 am

Thank you Ro. At least you >get it<!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some information about Soffit Mounting monitors that I picked up this morning 09/28/2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=442366:
The idea might come from some big studios that you see them mounted IN the walls. This is fine, but doing soffit
mounting is a pro job. There's a lot more to it than just building a little shelf in the wall and mounting it flush.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/masterin ... ering.html:
Now, when you take a free standing speaker and flush mount it, you force ALL wavelengths to radiate in the forward
hemisphere. This results once again in a 6dB response mismatch, only this time it's heavy in the bass.

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/art ... rstand.htm:
If a speaker is placed near a wall, at low frequencies the wall will start to behave as an extension of the speaker
baffle, and this will cause a boost in the bass level.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5629:
If I were going to attempt to flush mount those, and didn't want to pay so much, here's what I'd try -
Build the soffit enclosure and leave a cutout larger than the largest speaker I'd ever plan to install.

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/soffit.htm:
Speakers have two theoretically ideal working conditions. The first is if its radiation space is into a full space
(spherical radiation) or into a half space (hemi-spherical radiation). To achieve ideal full space conditions the
speaker needs to be small compared to the radiated wavelength. Because the speaker front baffle is small the higher the frequency the smaller the radiation angle will be.

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center ... 01/04/2002:
Wooden walls are difficult to realize because large quantities of wood are required to ensure that there is no
vibration transmission. Heavy bracing is also required to reduce unwanted resonances.
The monitors should be mounted onto rubber pads to de-couple them from the wall and avoid structural vibration
transmission - in practical terms the wall should not vibrate when the monitors are played at high level.

http://swan.he.net/~tapeop/viewtopic.ph ... 223b9a102d:
(about johnlsayers.com, before I even showed up)
They generally seem like a civil lot, but have a bit less tolerance for repeating answers that may have come up
before; the moderators tend to be more helpful when you've obviously read the FAQ or earlier posts and still can't
find an answer.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... d00bdb544b:
I want to soffit mount my atc scm 50 s they are active so i understand they will need some air around the back for the
amps

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/24087/0/:
Soffit mounting speakers vs. imaging

http://www.willofjehovah.com/Studio/prax_soffit-sim.htm:
Whether a soffit-mounted monitor system is provided, or whether the speakers are placed on stands in the room at
carefully chosen positions is really a matter for prayer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
/END
------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I get out of this is that the speaker you use is the least of the criteria.

What is important is your technical understanding of what it is you are about to undertake and your ability to build it as required. Once you can develop this you will know what speaker can or can not be used in this type of design.

It AIN'T no cookie-cutter operation!

Lighten up on THAT!!!!!!!

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:44 am

Ro, that was a friendly reply to Brien's comments, as polite and respectful as I am to everyone that tries to give me a helping hand. However, I'm not going to stay passive or indifferent to ironic and sarcastic comments that I don't deserve to get as I did later on by Brien, in that same topic you've just quoted and with his "advice" in this topic as well. Even then, as upset as I was, I replied as friendly as always. You tell me Ro, should I have let it pass again? I don't think so...

The title of this topic is "In-wall or soffit mounting monitors?" and my question was about constructing the inner leaf of a double frame wall as a soffit for mounting monitors. I also made a suggestion for a sticky. A suggestion for someone that has expierience, resources and free time that I currently don't have, to provide this community with another wonderful collection of information. If that was innapropriate, I deeply apologise...

xSpace wrote: What I get out of this is that the speaker you use is the least of the criteria.

What is important is your technical understanding of what it is you are about to undertake and your ability to build it as required. Once you can develop this you will know what speaker can or can not be used in this type of design.

It AIN'T no cookie-cutter operation!

Lighten up on THAT!!!!!!!

Brien, I couldn't agree more with your perspective of things, however I totally disagree with the way you're trying to present it, specially to people that have no idea whatsoever about it!

And as grateful as I was for all these references you've linked, your last sentence took that feeling away...

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:24 am

Ro wrote:now, for the questions.

Yes, please! Thank you! "relief"

Ro wrote:Using your inner leaf would not be such a good idea since sound will escape through the back and fill your cavity. Not good.
Also it will kill your isolation factor, the noise from your monitors will now only have to deal with the outer layer.

Ofcourse, if you try to built it like that...

Ro wrote:Sure you could soffit in the innerlayer and build the wall "around" the speaker, but you'll end up with a wider airspace behind the walls (think about it) and you will set the innerwall in motion more.

Now we are talking! That's exactly what I had in mind!

About the wider airspace between the outer and inner leaf... If you're refering to the "wasted" studio's space due to the wider wall, isn't gonna be more or less the same airspace "wasted" between the inner leaf and the traditional soffit construction? Or maybe you're suggesting that a much wider air space between leaves is not efficient (air-sping-effect-wise)... Vibrations could be a potential problem, but couldn't we balance that with adding more dampening materials around the soffits? Actually, my first thoughts (and potential problems) about this idea can be described with three words: complicated, expensive and permanent...

Post by **xSpace** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:31 am

"Brien, I couldn't agree more with your perspective of things, however I totally disagree with the way you're trying to present it, specially to people that have no idea whatsoever about it! "

Hey boss, I'm just a guy out here like anyone else. I know nothing about soffit mounting speakers either except what I just spent a few minutes gathering up.

Which was my point. Everyone is busy.

Be your own professional.

Waiting for those guys to speak is like waiting for an elevator.

I know, this is one of those times I should keep my mouth shut...guess what, door works both ways.

Soundman2020 · Post by **Soundman2020** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:15 am

Some information about Soffit Mounting monitors that I picked up this morning 09/28/2008

Oh boy! Gold mine alert! Gold mine alert!

Time for me to do some more digging.

I love this place!

Thanks xSpace!!!!

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:49 pm

xSpace wrote:Waiting for those guys to speak is like waiting for an elevator.

Actually, my point of view and way of life in general is, take the stairs, exercise is important for you (specially if you always have high levels of cholysterol like I do...

), but if you get too tired along the way, wait for the lift to reach your destination... We're only humans...

Post by **xSpace** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:36 am

jlemon wrote:[We're only humans...

Your going to miss me when I'm gone.

jlemon · Post by **jlemon** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:33 pm

xSpace wrote:Your going to miss me when I'm gone.

It's like women, can't stand them, can't live without them...

Honestly, no hard feelings man...

Ro · Post by Ro » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:59 pm

jlemon wrote:
Ro wrote:
Ro wrote:Sure you could soffit in the innerlayer and build the wall "around" the speaker, but you'll end up with a wider airspace behind the walls (think about it) and you will set the innerwall in motion more.
Now we are talking! That's exactly what I had in mind!

About the wider airspace between the outer and inner leaf... If you're refering to the "wasted" studio's space due to the wider wall, isn't gonna be more or less the same airspace "wasted" between the inner leaf and the traditional soffit construction? Or maybe you're suggesting that a much wider air space between leaves is not efficient (air-sping-effect-wise)... Vibrations could be a potential problem, but couldn't we balance that with adding more dampening materials around the soffits? Actually, my first thoughts (and potential problems) about this idea can be described with three words: complicated, expensive and permanent...

A wider air-cavity is, acoustically, very good as a matter of fact!
BUT, are you willing to "waste" that precious space. That's mostly the most important question. If you can; DO IT! If not, don't build the soffit inside your inner layer.