John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

It's 2021!! My kid is almost 2!!!! Where did the time go??

But I'm still here, and I'm still making this damn studio. And I'm officially "breaking ground" this weekend! By which I mean, the space is cleared and I am going to start on a few items that can be done without having my fully revised plan in place. Every other part of the basement renovation basically ended up having to be done before the studio, but it's all done! Except the foyer and hallway, but those can wait

I'm sure I am disappointing the pros here with my somewhat reduced ambitions, but in the end I have decided that, given my limited space, I would rather prioritize having it be as big as possible rather than as isolated as possible. And the idea of building a room in a room in such a small and irregularly shaped space just seems like it will never get done, and never be good enough anyway.

But I'm excited! I am working on a new Sketchup and will post that whenever it's done, and definitely have several questions brewing but want to get it all in one place before I ask for any help. And if nobody responds, it's all good - this is still going to be my studio build diary, and hopefully it helps someone else, or is at least entertaining

Happy new year to everyone, hope everyone is hanging in there and making music!!

cheers! not unusual for things to come to fruition later than expected plus 2020 doesn't count...

Thanks Glenn - I'll drink to that! I think this is the first I've heard from you in this thread - really appreciate the response!! I'm tempted to start firing off questions but I want to respect everyone's time so I'm going to try to get everything together, post a new overall plan with some photos, and as good of a Sketchup design as I can muster. I'm hoping to have that together in the next couple of weeks.

OK, I started! Mostly beefing up the outer walls - I am piecing another layer of drywall in between the studs with a layer of Green Glue, because the outer leaf of two of the walls was only one layer of drywall. I'm putting 1" screws into the new drywall to hold it in place, and then thoroughly caulking around the screws and the drywall seams. I am still working on a new Sketchup but in the meantime I felt like this was work I would have to do no matter what. The ceiling too - I am going to caulk the floor boards and put one, if not two, layers of drywall (question about this below). That will give me plenty to work on while I figure everything else out

I've also attached a few pics of the progress and state of affairs.

In the meantime, I do have a number of questions. The current, general plan is to have all walls be single stud with two layers of 5/8" drywall with GG between them (and Safe n Sound insulation), and the ceiling beefed up between the joists, Safe n Sound, and possible another layer of 2x4s attached to them with another layer of Safe n Sound, plus two layers of drywall with GG (question about that below). Given that I am not doing a "room within a room" for space considerations, I am wondering about several things that might be unnecessary given that there is a limit to the overall amount of isolation that I will be able to achieve:

1. Are resilient channel strips/hat channel and clips "worth it"? If so, is it sensible to only have them on the ceiling and/or shared wall (the two most sensitive spots)?   In that vein, is it worth it to drop the ceiling down with 2x4s to put another layer of insulation in (as described above)? 

2. Would it be better to caulk all of the cracks in the ceiling, or just do two layers of drywall?  Not sure which is easier.  Or both, if it's worth it.

3. Has anyone tried a single room ERV like the Panasonic WhisperComfort ERV?  Does this make sense?  It's the only way I can think to ventilate the room.

4. Should I put drywall on the inside of the boxes/soffits around the ductwork? Like, enclose them completely, so the ductwork is not in the open spot between leaves?

5. Is a single solid core door (installed according to the commonly used approach found elsewhere on the boards) sufficient for the walls I have? I can't really do two doors, but I could do something crazy like build a door with insulation in the middle to basically mimic the walls.

6. Is there a material (plywood, MDF, etc.) that is roughly equivalent to 2 layers of drywall with Green Glue?  Specifically for the bottom of the box around the duct going into the hall to the laundry area.  Head clearance is a real concern.

7. Do joists need to be beefed up or have insulation and at least one layer of drywall? My walls terminate on floor joists, so I'm worried about the other side of the joist (outside the studio). That is currently a ceiling with insulation and a single layer of drywall, but it's mostly open space and goes up to the kitchen.

1. Are resilient channel strips/hat channel and clips "worth it"? If so, is it sensible to only have them on the ceiling and/or shared wall (the two most sensitive spots)? In that vein, is it worth it to drop the ceiling down with 2x4s to put another layer of insulation in (as described above)?

for isolation to work, you really need to do it in 3 dimensions. doing sound isolation on a single wall or portion of the ceiling is generally ineffective. as far as resilience strips - the better choice are isolation clips and hat channel as they're more structurally sound and reliable. but also more money.

2. Would it be better to caulk all of the cracks in the ceiling, or just do two layers of drywall? Not sure which is easier. Or both, if it's worth it.

caulk everything. you will learn to hate caulk. but caulk is your friend. caulk everything. when it doubt add more caulk. remember backing rod is caulks friend. use backer rod to ensure proper contact for the caulk.

3. Has anyone tried a single room ERV like the Panasonic WhisperComfort ERV? Does this make sense? It's the only way I can think to ventilate the room.

the Panasonic ERV are nice units. just make sure you're isolating them from the room for air silencing and including vibration mounts.

4. Should I put drywall on the inside of the boxes/soffits around the ductwork? Like, enclose them completely, so the ductwork is not in the open spot between leaves?

once the duct has been safely penetrated into the room (or out of the room) using the attenuators, you can route the duct however you like. the attenuators work because they mimic the mass of the walls or ceiling, and they have a convoluted path so there is no direct passage of sound through the wall/ceiling penetrations. it's always a good idea for the room-side ducts/plenums etc to be expanding to reduce the flow velocity (which reduces vent noise and general "wind" in the room which your mics can hear even if you cannot.

5. Is a single solid core door (installed according to the commonly used approach found elsewhere on the boards) sufficient for the walls I have? I can't really do two doors, but I could do something crazy like build a door with insulation in the middle to basically mimic the walls.

a solid massive door which is damped and properly sealed all around will work.

6. Is there a material (plywood, MDF, etc.) that is roughly equivalent to 2 layers of drywall with Green Glue? Specifically for the bottom of the box around the duct going into the hall to the laundry area. Head clearance is a real concern.

3x 5/8" type X drywall is pretty much equal to 2x 5/8" type X drywall with GG in between. it's generally less costing in materials but adds more weight onto the structure and reduces your room height and wall widths by an extra 5/8". cement board of 3/8" is more slightly more dense than the drywall and might be an answer there.

7. Do joists need to be beefed up or have insulation and at least one layer of drywall? My walls terminate on floor joists, so I'm worried about the other side of the joist (outside the studio). That is currently a ceiling with insulation and a single layer of drywall, but it's mostly open space and goes up to the kitchen.

if you're not building a room within a room, then increasing the mass and damping it are really the only options for more isolation unless you're using isolation clips and hat channel for the interior room mass. and even then, it cannot hurt to increase the wall in-between studs/joists and on the outside drywalls and filling with insulation.

Thank you so much for the reply!!

1. Are resilient channel strips/hat channel and clips "worth it"? If so, is it sensible to only have them on the ceiling and/or shared wall (the two most sensitive spots)? In that vein, is it worth it to drop the ceiling down with 2x4s to put another layer of insulation in (as described above)?

for isolation to work, you really need to do it in 3 dimensions. doing sound isolation on a single wall or portion of the ceiling is generally ineffective. as far as resilience strips - the better choice are isolation clips and hat channel as they're more structurally sound and reliable. but also more money.

Gotcha. I'm mainly concerned with the footfall sounds from the room above, so that's why I was thinking maybe only doing the ceiling would be sufficient. So basically if I did it, I would do it on every interior wall of the studio (including ceiling)? The cost is a concern of course, but do you have any sense of how much of a difference we're talking about? Like, 10% better, or 50%? Obviously this is imprecise, but I'm just trying to gauge if it would make a truly significant difference.

2. Would it be better to caulk all of the cracks in the ceiling, or just do two layers of drywall? Not sure which is easier. Or both, if it's worth it.

caulk everything. you will learn to hate caulk. but caulk is your friend. caulk everything. when it doubt add more caulk. remember backing rod is caulks friend. use backer rod to ensure proper contact for the caulk.

Point taken, and this is of course what I was hoping you wouldn't say

3. Has anyone tried a single room ERV like the Panasonic WhisperComfort ERV? Does this make sense? It's the only way I can think to ventilate the room.

the Panasonic ERV are nice units. just make sure you're isolating them from the room for air silencing and including vibration mounts.

Sweet, thanks! I'll have more questions about this when I start figuring out the silencer boxes for this and for HVAC, but I think this is my best (only?) option for ventilation.

4. Should I put drywall on the inside of the boxes/soffits around the ductwork? Like, enclose them completely, so the ductwork is not in the open spot between leaves?

once the duct has been safely penetrated into the room (or out of the room) using the attenuators, you can route the duct however you like. the attenuators work because they mimic the mass of the walls or ceiling, and they have a convoluted path so there is no direct passage of sound through the wall/ceiling penetrations. it's always a good idea for the room-side ducts/plenums etc to be expanding to reduce the flow velocity (which reduces vent noise and general "wind" in the room which your mics can hear even if you cannot.

Apologies, I was being unclear here. There are already two duct runs that are in the room, and that can't be moved. See pics below. So this is different from the silencer boxes, which I still need to work out before I ask for help. I guess my thought is, if I basically build around these the same thing I'm making for the walls, would that effectively "remove" them from the room. Like, frame around them and put two layers of drywall on both side of the framing, with GG and Safe n Sound. If that is still unclear I can try creating a Sketchup of what I'm talking about, or even draw it out by hand. It seems like it should work to my amateur brain, but then I also worry about whether I would be creating a three leaf situation above and behind the ductwork, or other issues that I don't understand. I could put another layer of drywall above (between the duct and the floor joists) and behind (between the duct and the existing back wall) so it was four leaves if that would solve the problem.

5. Is a single solid core door (installed according to the commonly used approach found elsewhere on the boards) sufficient for the walls I have? I can't really do two doors, but I could do something crazy like build a door with insulation in the middle to basically mimic the walls.

a solid massive door which is damped and properly sealed all around will work.

Apologies for being dense, but what do you mean by damped? The method I was planning to use is basically what is described on this link:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=30

6. Is there a material (plywood, MDF, etc.) that is roughly equivalent to 2 layers of drywall with Green Glue? Specifically for the bottom of the box around the duct going into the hall to the laundry area. Head clearance is a real concern.

3x 5/8" type X drywall is pretty much equal to 2x 5/8" type X drywall with GG in between. it's generally less costing in materials but adds more weight onto the structure and reduces your room height and wall widths by an extra 5/8". cement board of 3/8" is more slightly more dense than the drywall and might be an answer there.

I was being a bit unclear here as well. This is the other duct run that is currently in the room. See pic below. The height from the concrete floor to the bottom of this duct is 77", so adding in the floor I plan to put in, plus boxing around the duct could add up to 7 or so inches, making it so anyone over about 5'9" (like me) would have to duck their head. So instead of framing, if I could get by with a denser material just in this doorway area, I would very much like to. Or thinner framing with thinner insulation like OC 703 instead of Safe n Sound (2" instead of 3"). Even a couple of inches would make a big difference. I hope that makes sense. I'm having a very hard time explaining some of these weird areas of the room, and I know they will end up being the hardest to deal with.

7. Do joists need to be beefed up or have insulation and at least one layer of drywall? My walls terminate on floor joists, so I'm worried about the other side of the joist (outside the studio). That is currently a ceiling with insulation and a single layer of drywall, but it's mostly open space and goes up to the kitchen.

if you're not building a room within a room, then increasing the mass and damping it are really the only options for more isolation unless you're using isolation clips and hat channel for the interior room mass. and even then, it cannot hurt to increase the wall in-between studs/joists and on the outside drywalls and filling with insulation.

Sweet, I think this makes sense to me.

The other thing I'm currently having a very hard time visualizing is how to deal with the ceiling area around the shared wall to the other living space. This is where my father in law basically lives now, which was not the original plan - the pandemic happened and he ended up moving in semi permanently. I could probably bulk it up and basically figure out a way to box it out and include it with whatever assembly I make for the duct over the doorway, but it's a tough nut to crack and any ideas or thoughts would be most welcome. The wall terminates between joists so it's basically open into the ceiling cavity of his room, not to mention the duct going through (the same one over the door discussed above). Pics below.
Thanks so much for the help, I really appreciate it!

you can add mass to the walls behind the ducts to equalize the mass on that outer boundary, then you need to frame around the ducts and isolate them from the room (since they're not part of the air for room, they sit outside it in the air gap space) and only bring air in/out via the silencers.

Thank you for the response! If you (or anyone else) can provide any more detail about my questions, I would greatly appreciate it. Or if I need to do more work on my end to make it more clear what I'm asking, please let me know. I'm a bit stuck on the decision about resilient clips and what to do about the existing ductwork, as well as the ceiling area to the shared room - I've found some other good info elsewhere on the board but nothing that is exactly what I'm dealing with.

the question about encasing the duct - if you want the isolation to be consistent you need the mass around it to match the walls and ceiling. if you cannot re-route the duct, contemplate replacing that section is flatter & wider hard duct to maintain air flows and allow you to frame it up and cover it. using hard duct wrapped with duct liner will provide damping of the noisier metal duct and keep it flatter, then fill in around it with the insulation.

Thanks Glenn! I think that makes sense, and it might be an option for the duct going through the doorway to make it wider. I will certainly look into that. I don't think the other one matters as much, since it will be over the mixing desk and I'm not worried about headroom there. I still don't totally understand how the boxes around the ducts will work, but I'll try to post a picture of what I think I understand and maybe that will help me convey it.

In the meantime, if you or anyone else has any input on the other issues, I'd definitely appreciate it. Thanks!

-Dan

the "boxes" is a framed soffit which becomes part of your inner frame/mass so the ducting is isolated outside your room. it should match the wall and ceiling mass.

OK, I'm back with an update! I worked for awhile after my last posts and then took some time off to actually make music, and now I'm back in construction mode. I mainly have one questions, but a few updates for anyone listening

1. I've almost certainly decided to ditch the RSIC clip/channel idea because in reality my isolation needs are fairly modest, and I just keep getting overwhelmed with how much work this is. I just don't have the time to make this as good as I'd theoretically like, so I'm almost certainly going to mount the drywall directly to the framing and that should be sufficient for what I need. Two layers on each side with Green Glue is the plan.

2. You can see from the pics below how I ended up handling the ductwork. I saw elsewhere on the forum that if you have to create a three leaf situation, which I think I did, you should beef up the inner part. So I did two layers of 5/8" drywall and an extra layer of 1/2", with Green Glue between the outer two layers. I have caulked the hell out of everything, per Glenn's advice

3. Making good progress on caulking the floor boards and beefing up with two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in between, but it is not fun work.

4. I've also almost certainly decided to get rid of the ductwork and vents that are tapped off the existing HVAC system and go with a mini split, which I'm sure I'll have questions about later on. It's a lot more money but trying to figure out the silencer boxes and where they go is (almost) literally driving me insane, and again, the amount of work still ahead is daunting, so this seems like it would take a ton of work off my shoulders, not to mention mental anguish.

So, given all of that, and in the interest of hopefully being clear in my questions, I'm just going to focus on one thing right now: doors. I need at least three doors (maybe four if I decide to use a door for access to the furnace, but that's for another post), and I'll be in a position to put one in soon. Glenn, I know you said a massive, solid door will suffice, so I wanted to make sure I am getting the right kind.

First question is, does it matter if it's "solid core" or actual solid wood? I've found some pretty affordable solid core doors for a little over $100 that are 1 3/4" think, weight about 80 pounds, and seem like a possibility. I've also found a place that can ship solid wood doors (red oak or ash are fairly affordable) but they're going to be probably closer to $400 apiece or even $500 after shipping. They also do 1 3/4" or 2 1/4". So, not cheap, but doable if it's a big upgrade performance-wise. If so, is it worth the extra money to go 2 1/4"? I would consider beefing up a solid core door but at this point in the game I'm willing to spend a bit of extra money to save time/work. Any thoughts, especially given the isolation I can expect from basically having a two leaf system with double 5/8 drywall and Green Glue on each side, would be very much appreciated.

Second question is basically looking for input on the design I have in the SketchUp pics below, and also about hardware. From elsewhere on the forum, I was basically planning to have the door close against 3/4" wood stops with Neoprene weather stripping (like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PFJXCB2/re ... UTF8&psc=1) to create the seal. Then I was going to have surface mounted pull handles on each side, and was thinking of something like a ball catch to keep it closed. That would avoid holes in the door, and if we hung it well, seems like it should be sufficient. So any thoughts on any of that would also be most appreciated!

Thanks as always!

-Dan

the solid core will work - you should add a layer of MDF to it to increase its mass. then hang and seal. later you'll want to add some absorption to damp it, or you could add a layer of MLV between the door and MDF.

Awesome, thanks! So just to be sure/clear, that would be a superior solution to just using a solid wood door, even a thick one like 2 1/4?? I'm also wondering because there's a decent chance I could get solid wood doors from a building material re-use place that's close by. I also have a personal pet peeve against MDF - if I go that way, would 3/4" plywood also be a good solution? And for sealing, is the way I describe a good/sufficient approach? Thanks as always, I really appreciate it!

Glenn, I also saw another post of yours elsewhere that one could do Green Glue instead of MLV in between the door and MDF/plywood (possibly) - if that's also a good option, I think I'd rather do that. But yeah, any other help on my sealing question and the ball catch/hardware would be most appreciated.