John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hey, does anybody have any advice about how far off the corner I should mount my door? ...is it ideal to center it in the wall in which it's mounted (when possible), so the corners can be treated effectively?

Thanks.

Depending on the use of the room, you'd want it at least 24" from the corner, 36" would be better, and centered would be excellent.

However, do also take into account traffic paths: you don't want doors opening directly into places where people are walking regularly, or where it is likely you'll have gear, instruments, mic stands, speakers, cables, furniture, etc. in the way. Also, don't put doors at first reflection points in a control room if you can avoid it, as that makes it harder to treat, and also don't put them where you need windows for good sight-lines into other rooms... unless you also plan to have glass in the door.

Lots of stuff to take into account with studio design! Even for something as simple as where to put a door...

- Stuart -

Great, Stuart, many thanks for the super quick reply!!

...so yes, I thought I had the design locked down pretty well, regarding traffic paths, gear, etc., but this one oversight (door in the corner) will in fact change much of my originally intended plan, unfortunately; I was looking to build a booth right outside of my main LR, thus why I wanted to put my door in that corner, but moving it inward will hinder that option...

Well, back to the ol' drawing board.

Appreciate your time!

-Chris

I moved the door frame out of the corner, hopefully everything's looking good now.

Much better!

You still need to add those extra noggins, though...

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:Much better!

You still need to add those extra noggins, though...

Sweet!...I'm sure glad that you brought up the door issue before I went Rambo on it, haha!

Soundman2020 wrote:...but first you need to complete the framing around your door. Studio doors are massive, and heavy. So when you swing it open, there's a huge amount of stress and tension placed on the framing. It needs to be beefy... if not, the framing can bend, sag, twist, or otherwise warp slightly over time, and your door will end up binding, and not sealing properly. Place noggins at 24" or even 16" intervals up the stud bays to each side in the first bay, then half that spacing, staggered, in the second bay. If your door is excessively heavy, then I have been known to put a 2x6 flat across the inner faces of the studs, facing the cavity, if there's enough gap to do that....

- Stuart -

On first read, I misunderstood what you meant here (which you couldn't have described much better, sometimes, I'm just stupid), but now I think I actually get it; install multiple noggins (5ish) vertically in the first two stud bays (L & R) where the door frame will mount to, and then in the second bays (L & R) from the door, do the same, with less nog's (3ish), but stagger them as much as possible, so they are not too close in line with the blocking in the first bays. Easy enough.

...Stuart, when you mentioned that you sometimes use a 2x6" along the inner studs, is that in tandem with the noggins, for the maximum anti-twist factor? My door is a tank on hinges, so I'd definitely rather go for the gusto.


As always, thank you doesn't say enough!

-Chris

...and I may as well ask, again, just to confirm it's correct, since it doesn't really make much sense to me; for my first layer of drywall on my outer leaf, I simply screw it to the studs like any other job, right (no adhesives, cleats, etc.)?

...and once that layer is up, ideally, I'll then Green Glue the next layer of drywall to the first (w/seams staggered), and again, screw through the first layer of drywall and into the studs, just like I did with the first layer, but with Green Glue this time, correct? I'll assume the same approach for my inner leaf walls also...I believe that Greg gave me his blessing with this, just looking to confirm before I commit.

The question that eludes my understanding here is weather or not the green glue will actually offer any extra benefit, since the two layers won't act independent of one another; I do recognize the value of the GG's low frequency heat dissipation characteristics, and I imagine that is the main, if not only, real world benefit here?. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

for my first layer of drywall on my outer leaf, I simply screw it to the studs like any other job, right (no adhesives, cleats, etc.)?

...and once that layer is up, ideally, I'll then Green Glue the next layer of drywall to the first (w/seams staggered), and again, screw through the first layer of drywall and into the studs, just like I did with the first layer, but with Green Glue this time, correct?

Exactly! Yes, that is indeed, the correct way to use Green Glue.

The question that eludes my understanding here is weather or not the green glue will actually offer any extra benefit,

Most definitely! See their website and the rather large section of technical testing they have had done on walls built with their product, at independent acoustic testing labs. It is quite well documented.

since the two layers won't act independent of one another;

Why not? I don't understand your doubt here. You have two layers of drywall, separated by a visco-elastic polymer: why are you concerned that this could prevent them from acting independently? That's actually the point here: they layers do still act independently, and are able to flex and slide past each other as the waves cause the surfaces to vibrate in different manners. The Green Glue compound acts on that independent movement, damping it, as well as damping other vibrations that involve both surfaces together. If you were to use construction glue, for example, or any other type of glue other than Green Glue, then the layers would NOT be able to act independently, and that's a different acoustic scenario. In that case, they would act as one single, solid mass, and therefore the coincidence dip would move down to a lower frequency.

I do recognize the value of the GG's low frequency heat dissipation characteristics, and I imagine that is the main, if not only, real world benefit here?

... and it achieves that precisely BECAUSE the two layers remain independent! That's how constrained layer damping works! You have a damping material that is constrained between two layers of building materials, that are otherwise free to vibrate independently. The relative motion between those two layers is damped by the CLD, and converted into low grade heat. That's how CLD's work. But this is not just a low-frequency issue: it also works at higher frequencies. For example, at the coincidence dip, where the bending wave is causing both layers to follow the same vibratory motion as a single unit, the motion of that wave across the surface of the leaf still causes some relative motion between the layers (thin about it....), and the CLD still acts to damp that. Thus, a wall with GG shows improvement in isolation at low frequencies as well as in the mid range, where the coincidence dip occurs. And therefore, it improves overall isolation across the entire spectrum.

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote: Exactly! Yes, that is indeed, the correct way to use Green Glue.

Ok, great, thanks for the assurance.

The question that eludes my understanding here is weather or not the green glue will actually offer any extra benefit,

Soundman2020 wrote:Most definitely! See their website and the rather large section of technical testing they have had done on walls built with their product, at independent acoustic testing labs. It is quite well documented.

I should've used different wording here, as I meant to convey an incorrect understanding that screws may somehow negate the value of the Green Glue, and I was just curious if it would be wasteful or not, in my configuration, to which I fully recognize it is not..."is there any extra benefit?" Hahaha..

since the two layers won't act independent of one another;

Soundman2020 wrote:Why not? I don't understand your doubt here. You have two layers of drywall, separated by a visco-elastic polymer: why are you concerned that this could prevent them from acting independently? That's actually the point here: they layers do still act independently, and are able to flex and slide past each other as the waves cause the surfaces to vibrate in different manners. The Green Glue compound acts on that independent movement, damping it, as well as damping other vibrations that involve both surfaces together. If you were to use construction glue, for example, or any other type of glue other than Green Glue, then the layers would NOT be able to act independently, and that's a different acoustic scenario. In that case, they would act as one single, solid mass, and therefore the coincidence dip would move down to a lower frequency.

I've always said that the best teachers can paint a picture well.

I do recognize the value of the GG's low frequency heat dissipation characteristics, and I imagine that is the main, if not only, real world benefit here?

Soundman2020 wrote:... and it achieves that precisely BECAUSE the two layers remain independent! That's how constrained layer damping works! You have a damping material that is constrained between two layers of building materials, that are otherwise free to vibrate independently. The relative motion between those two layers is damped by the CLD, and converted into low grade heat. That's how CLD's work. But this is not just a low-frequency issue: it also works at higher frequencies. For example, at the coincidence dip, where the bending wave is causing both layers to follow the same vibratory motion as a single unit, the motion of that wave across the surface of the leaf still causes some relative motion between the layers (thin about it....), and the CLD still acts to damp that. Thus, a wall with GG shows improvement in isolation at low frequencies as well as in the mid range, where the coincidence dip occurs. And therefore, it improves overall isolation across the entire spectrum.

- Stuart -

I'm clearly still in cleat mode, haha, again, I visualized each screwed layer as NOT being independent. Noted.

Many thanks!!

I'm clearly still in cleat mode, haha, again, I visualized each screwed layer as NOT being independent. Noted.

Like a drum head that is anchored down very tightly around the entire perimeter, the skin still vibrates back and forth. So between every drywall screw, there is the ability for resonance. Yes, a piece of drywall anchored between studs with cleats and sealant WILL have the ability to really resonant, we have to remember that typically between these studs/joists, there is usually way less than 24". So, between drywall screws, there isn't much of a difference in the amount of drywall able to flex/resonate.

Greg

Noggins: This is what I mean....
The NOGGINS run HORIZONTALLY, between studs. They are SPACED vertically at smaller-than-normal intervals, such as every 12" or 16". There are more of them in the FIRST bay, right next to the door, and fewer in the second bay, further away from the door. Assuming your first layer of sheathing is thick plywood or OSB (or even MDF), then you get excellent structural strength like this, and the doorway should remain square and plumb, with very little movement, sag, twist or other deformation due to the weight of the door moving around as it opens and closes.

Of course, I'm also assuming that the sole plate is firmly bolted to the slab on either side of the doorway, in a couple of places...


- Stuart -

Gregwor wrote:

I'm clearly still in cleat mode, haha, again, I visualized each screwed layer as NOT being independent. Noted.

Like a drum head that is anchored down very tightly around the entire perimeter, the skin still vibrates back and forth. So between every drywall screw, there is the ability for resonance. Yes, a piece of drywall anchored between studs with cleats and sealant WILL have the ability to really resonant, we have to remember that typically between these studs/joists, there is usually way less than 24". So, between drywall screws, there isn't much of a difference in the amount of drywall able to flex/resonate.

Greg

That's a perfect example, Greg, very well illustrated. Another Van Gogh!

By the way, I hope that you're doing well, I know you had some sh*tty hoops to jump through recently. Godspeed my friend!

The Dread wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:Much better!
You still need to add those extra noggins, though...

...now I think I actually get it; install multiple noggins (5ish) vertically in the first two stud bays (L & R) where the door frame will mount to, and then in the second bays (L & R) from the door, do the same, with less nog's (3ish), but stagger them as much as possible, so they are not too close in line with the blocking in the first bays. Easy enough.
...Stuart, when you mentioned that you sometimes use a 2x6" along the inner studs, is that in tandem with the noggins, for the maximum anti-twist factor? My door is a tank on hinges, so I'd definitely rather go for the gusto.

Soundman2020 wrote: The NOGGINS run HORIZONTALLY, between studs. They are SPACED vertically at smaller-than-normal intervals, such as every 12" or 16". There are more of them in the FIRST bay, right next to the door, and fewer in the second bay, further away from the door. Assuming your first layer of sheathing is thick plywood or OSB (or even MDF), then you get excellent structural strength like this, and the doorway should remain square and plumb, with very little movement, sag, twist or other deformation due to the weight of the door moving around as it opens and closes.
Of course, I'm also assuming that the sole plate is firmly bolted to the slab on either side of the doorway, in a couple of places...
- Stuart -

Those pictures say it all.

...and MDF (1/2" or 3/4" ?) as a first layer (outer leaf/door wall) seems like a brilliant approach, for the anti-twist factor. Great idea!
Also, my sole/sill plate is in fact lagged into the concrete at a few key points on both sides of the doorway.

It's a great reward when a few 'simple' descriptions provide wholesale clarity, because each time that I get stuck over-thinking something (a good thing, I know), I ask my questions, you chime in, and then I attain the epiphany moment; it's great for my confidence (and sanity), having you guys as a resource/mentor. Hopefully you read that how I mean it, out of sheer respect and appreciation.

I get genuinely excited each time that my email dings with a John Sayers notification. You guys are the best.

Happy weekend!

*ding*

For doors, on the SketchUp 3D Warehouse, gullfo has kindly uploaded some amazing designs with part descriptions even! Check it out: Greg

Ding indeed, haha..

Those are some pretty spiffy door models! Nice work gullfo!

...I'm still trying to nail down my Sketchup design, in critical depth, from the outside in, but am definitely finding it to be a slow learning process. There is a "House Builder" extension that looks promising, but I'm apparently to stubborn to have already signed up, downloaded, and begun any new studies with it.
I have, however, found some of your Sketchup tips (Greg) somewhere around here, recommending the basics, such as the learning of layers, groups, entities, and what not, which has helped me get off on the right foot, I think.

I'm still trying to nail down my Sketchup design, in critical depth, from the outside in, but am definitely finding it to be a slow learning process

Always, always, always group all the parts of a newly-created object using "Make Component", give it a suitable name, then immediately put it on a "layer". You can group related components together into other components, and put those on a different layer, in a hierarchy. So you could have a layer called "CR: Control Room" that contains all of the components that make up the control room, then have a "lower level" layer called "CR: Studs" and another called "CR: Drywall" and another called "CR: Insulation" and another called "CR: Furniture"... etc. SketchUp does not provide any method for actually organizing layers into hierarchies, so I use carefully crafted names and just arrange them in alphabetic order (which is the only order that SketchUp implements!). You can then create "scenes", which are just camera view points that also allow you to select which layers you want visible or invisible. And by arranging a series of "scenes" with slightly different camera positions and different selections of visible layers, you can create rather sophisticated animated "walk-throughs" and "fly-throughs". It takes a while to figure it all out, but it is well worth the effort.

- Stuart -