John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

you could enclose the support poles in the interior wall, the single wall i show is your main encasement for the room with the existing basement walls forming 2 of the outer walls, and you can add the other 2 walls per Stuart's design. you could frame out the window space but cover it and use a TV. then if you decide later that the window would be better, you have the framing ready to go and not have to tear out too much wall.

Like said, if you do the clips and track, then blocks are easiest.

But if you do a framed type ceiling that will mate to the framed walls, blocking will not work without significant reduction of head room. You would have to go back to the diagonal bracing in order to allow the joist to project to the highest possible placement in the overhead cavity.

There is a picture and possibly some explanation in Rod's book per diagonal bracing and joists.

a little update & reply ...

We had a busy week here, none the lest having Ma now over in special therapy after dbl knee replace surgery. Talk about nerve racking I can begin to shift focus back to control room.

Some progress is underway ...

A few days back I had a visit from my structural engineer. He looked over the entire build area, asking very pertinent questions, and studied the design plan. He wasn't aware of SketchUP, but will check it out. I emailed him copies of the SU files that we have.

A 'good' thing happened while he was here! We had visit from the grandchildren. They are VERY active kids, running around upstairs, having fun. But what the engineer pointed out was the flex in the floor. Nothing too crazy [except when they must have been tackling each other ... they are all very athletic]. He raised the same concern I had regarding ISO clipping the new ceiling to the exiting joist. His thinking is to pursue the independent design, whereby the new ceiling would be supported on the interior wall, with rafters inter-spaced between the existing joist, hanging ~1/2" below.
I've not yet heard back, so this was just one option mentioned. When I do, I would certainly like to present that info here to be certain.

Glenn ... I've made some mods to your initial layout to show the 2 double walls added. The SE suggested keeping the construction inside the main load bearing beam ... whereby the 2 metal support post wouldn't be enclosed. I think his feeling where more to do with cost, and EASE of the build.

As soon as I can get the SU file down to the 'limit', I would like to post that to be sure I've not done something stupid ... AND ... that the 'room ratio' are to requirements. If everything is good, I can then put a material list together so I can get the stuff shipped in

As far as I understand, we are OK to go with the beefing up between the joist.

Going from your initial drawing, Glenn, we'll do the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, with the 'backer rod' at the edges. Does it matter if the backer rod is 'open' or 'closed' cell ??? I think I've only seen 'closed' cell ?!?

I'm still trying to identify exactly what spec of rigid fiber board that needs to go up first [with all the nails hanging through]. I can bend them down, if needed ... but thinking the rigid board would be helpful to get a better fit up there. I DON'T want to use anything that would amplify the noise !!!!
Using 1x2 ledger to hold it all up ... and then caulk all the seams. Do I use just regular 'Painters Acrylic Latex' caulk ... something else ??? No mention in Rods' book on specifics. OR .. should I really be using the Green Glue companies sealant ? You mentioned using the Green Glue between those 5/8ths up in the joist ... so an order has got to go in.

My apologies if I'm being to 'anal' about all this ... but I only have one shot to be right at this part, cause 'shoulda/ coulda' would be bad.

Well ... just a small update to let you know I haven't fallen off the globe ... now to see if I can get that file size down.

Hey ... is everyone on SU version 8 now ?!?!?

Big thanks guys!!

the backer rod and caulk... lots of caulk... caulk is your friend...

dunno if its open or closed cell, i'm guessing closed... should not matter in this regards, it's designed to close gaps and reduce the quantity of caulk (your friend) needed.

if we're moving any walls we'll have to re-calc the room ratios.

on the ceiling - you could sister up the floor joists to make it rigid and then use the isolator clips. that would have the effect of reducing the flex and increasing the load bearing strength. and since you're taking out the blocking to put in the mass above, you could put in a second set of joists and do the block bracing instead of the cross bracing.

Hi Glenn,

I don't know what kind of walls you use to make SU designs, but I'm struggling to do just the most basic layout, and keep under the 500k limit.

I purged most everything ... and ended up redrawing the outer wall as a box by retracing over the wall/stud component

The changes made were mainly to the back & side wall [by the sump]. I tried to match the 'kick-ins' of the back wall to maintain symmetry.

If it turns out that the 'inner walls' become the support for the ceiling rafters, I lowered the inner walls about 1/2" to clear the structure joist above.

Let me get this SU file uploaded before anything more.

Thank-you!

it seems to be ok compared to the previous model.

Thanks Glenn for looking over the room size. I really did not want to mess with your design, but the isolation figures of the dual wall was something I wanted to have with this. If you see a better way, I'd appreciate it !

Had the plumbers back today to hook up a utility tub ... having to shift things around this area just to get at things.

Today I received an email from my structural engineer, Andy. I had sent him a variety of drawings that I compiled, along with Glenn's room design. While he was here, he went through the place, taking notes and a few photos. Tonite he sent me a PDF [which I've attached] with his handwritten recommendations. It's not the easiest to read, but I'm able to decipher it

He told me I'm good to go on the planned 'between the joist' treatment, so that is a good thing.

The CR ceiling is coming in pretty much as he indicated while he was here. He calls for 2x8", #2 or better, 16"oc set in between the joist above, resting on dbl top plate of the interior wall. From the looks of it, the ceiling height would be 6'-9 1/2". This is slightly better than what I originally had down here, and probably the most to expect. oh well ... might serve as additional incentive to build a ground up room down the road.

So with this, I'll need to get the electricians in and just re-route/clear the wiring in this area and be done with that. It'll make it easier to get that treatment up there too. I figured as much anyway.

Getting my 1st order put together. Figure to start with several cases of Green Glue, and at least 1 case of sealant. Some 1x2's, a dozen sheets of 5/8" drywall, backer rod, and a mess of caulk. I guess latex ??? or would it be better to go silicon based?

The rigid foam ... is the 'R-4 Foamular 250 - 3/4" ' the right stuff to lay up there first ??? Or if I bend all those nails poking through, should I go 1/2" rigid?

Thanks again for all you help and guidance

you don't need the backer rod in the mass your adding to the upper floor. just caulk it all once you have the ledger boards in place. caulk can be "acoustic" or "silicone", non-hardening caulk. you'll also want to consider the fire stops need a fire caulk. Rod's book has the details on how this is assembled. you will need backer rod for the ceiling/wall, wall/floor gaps in the drywall.

...and do not bend the nails over that have been driven through the overhead plywood. They exist in this manner for a reason and banging or bending them will reduce the ability to hold whatever they are holding above, that is why we keep saying use 3/4 inch thermal sheathing, extruded polystyrene, polyisocyanurate, whichever is cheapest.


And do not cut the nails either for all the same reasons given above

Thanks Glenn & Brien,

You saved me both time/effort & money! That backer rod would add up fast.

Not bending nails ... I'll get the 3/4" rigid.

Tonite I'm drumming with a jazz group ... when I get back, my shopping list gets ready to be called in.

More reading of Rod's book too!

Thanks.

"Glenn" ... basically l left about 2 inches around the new isolation walls which gives you about 6.5" of air gap on the outer walls and 9" between the interior walls. the isolation walls are supported by isolation mounts (like Mason Industry WIC or RISC mounts) to keep them stable and decoupled.

OK ... I've been having some work done 'outside' of the CR area [trying to get this basement fixed up]. Been a delay getting my electrician down here. He's just getting back to work after an injury and is starting to get caught up. We're looking at Wed or Thur to get together and decide what overhead wires [inside the floor joist] need to be re-routed. Since it looks like we are going with the new rafters between the existing joist, the few phone & electrical lines are in the way. It will also make the 'Ceiling Beef-up' procedure easier to get at.

I'm assembling my shopping list spreadsheet as I add more details to the SU file ... its' alot easier to count up the drywall, lumber counts this way

Been scanning the web to locate specific materials and suppliers.

In the quote above, I've been trying to identify & locate the 'isolation mounts' that Glenn mentioned. If I understand correctly, we'll need some type of standoff isolation mount between the 2 concrete walls and the new inner wall, and a iso bracket between the 2 new outer framed walls and the inner walls.

What I've found is the 'RSIC-CWB' between the inner/outer frame walls
http://www.professionalacousticsco.com/rsic-cwbxx.html

and 'RSIC-DC04' between the inner/concrete walls.
http://www.professionalacousticsco.com/rsic-dc04.html

Is this what I should be using ?

and if so ... got a supplier you'd recommend ?

Thanks again ... pics are comin'.

looks like the right brackets. you could shop around the internet for pricing.

gullfo wrote:looks like the right brackets. you could shop around the internet for pricing.

Hi Glenn,

Yeah ... I was trying to locate another bracket I saw [somewhere] ... it looked like an angle bracket that had iso-mount between the 'fingers'. It seems it was used to connect the 2 standing frame walls together, while maintaining a 'locked' distance. Now I can't seem to find the link to them.

But the BIG question, if ya don't mind me asking .... Should I use them ?? What I mean is this ... was over at Rods' forum and found a thread that kinda talked about this area. It was an 'older' thread, and it seemed there was concern as to effectiveness or need. Rod wanted to see data sheets. Again, this was an old thread ...

My contractor also raised the question too ... with the ceiling rafters and drywall tying the inside walls together ... he was just wondering. Of course, we are deferring to your perspective/judgement on this !!!!!!

Those 'other clips' looked a little like this. ----||____, with a type of iso between the 2 overlapping vertical fingers. [any idea ??] if so, what's the right way?
see page: 79 in The Hymnal/Bible.

Going thru Rods' book, I didn't find anything more specific in the section on walls.

Again ... just trying to understand the best way to do this, and very much appreciate your guidance!

Sincerely.

it's really a matter of stability. the inner walls supporting a massive ceiling without anything other than a corner join and the weight of the ceiling. if your builder let in some diagonal bracing on the outside of each wall frame before erecting it, that might be good. otherwise imho it couldn't hurt to have stabilizing isolation mounts every 6-8 feet. Mason Industries has the WIC (Wall Isolation Clip) which may be the other type of brace you were thinking of. In Rod's book, in the Pulling It all Together section you'll see extensive use of the isolation braces both the WIC and the RISC.

Hi Glenn,

Regarding the 'stability' WIC clips ... we are going with you on this ! of course ....

This meant having to, once again, make some modifications to the room layout and dimensions [another 'donation' and penance in the offering]

I sincerely hope that I have this correct ... especially in the 'Room Mode' perspective.

My SketchUP chops leave alot to be desired, but I have included in the RAR'd version 8 SU file a placement of the WIC clips as I thought they might be. [need I remind everyone ... I am NOT an architect nor a carpenter]

From reading threads, the suggestion of mounting the WIC's approx 1ft down from the top plate is what I tried to follow. There are places where this doesn't seem possible. The other BIG factor is that I don't have a clear depiction of how the actually framing beams will be located. [??? question: since we're doing double walls [separated] is there a need to stagger the wall frame beams ???].

Anyway ... I'd very much like to get this file posted and have the expert correct my mistakes. The time is coming to place material order ... but I want to be sure that the plan is the best it can be.

Thank-you [once again] for your patients, kindness, and your knowledge that you have shown to me and my Control Room build.

Sincerely,

RHollins