Re: Vocal Booth Design
Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:30 am
Hi Pedro. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!
- Stuart -
- Stuart -
A World of Experience
https://johnlsayersarchive.com/
I'm not sure how you got a reading of 8-10 dB for the ambient level, but that isn't correct. 10 dB is the level you'd hear in a typical well isolated anechoic chamber or acoustic laboratory, and most common SPL meters are not capable of measuring such low levels. About the lowest you'll even hear in real life, is around 25 dBC. Maybe you measured that with an iPhone app, or something like that? You can't trust those: they are way inaccurate. Get a proper sound level meter, decent quality (such as an Extech or Galaxy): they go for around US$100 on Amazon or e-bay. I'm not aware of any common SPL meter that is capable of measuring below 25 dB: most don't go below 30. Only sophistcated (and expensive!) meters go lower than that.I am living in the boonies and the noise problem is not too bad outside here, average about 8-10 db (birds), when a motorbikes pass by it goes up to 40 db.
That's fine. You can still build your place with whatever materials are available. We might need to do some changes to the structure to compensate, but you can still build it with typical common building materials.I am living in Uruguay and to come by all this high tech Materials is not possible for me, at least not for an reasonable price, they charge her 100% import taxes on most goods, also shipping costs are out of this world.
Perfect! All of that is usable.What is available here: Wood (not straight and low quality), MDF, Plywood (no exterior Ply available), Gypsum Board (China made), Bricks, Cement, Cement Blocks, just basic building materials are available.
The Styrofoam is useless: No acoustic benefits at all. If the fiberglass is poor quality, then just stay with the mineral wool. Do you have a link to the specifications for that?Insulation: Glass wool (very low quality), Rock-wool sheets, Styrofoam
Yes you can. No problem at all.So I wonder if I could build the walls and ceilings with bricks and cement, those are the cheaper materials available here.
In many countries, it is expensive to do it that way, but where we live, it is sometimes cheaper. And better! Bricks and blocks have much higher mass than drywall, plywood, or MDF, so you get better isolation.I could not find any plans or information´s about building with concrete and bricks or concrete blocks.
If your outer wall is brick or block, you can seal that and finish it any way you want. Exterior grade plaster ("stucco") would be good. Your inner wall could be brick as well, or it could be drywall on studs.Building double walls would be no problem I guess, but how and what to use for insulation on the outside and inside ?
Nope. Nothing. Nada. Como dicen aquí en Chile: "Vale callampa!".Is Styrofoam (which is available here) of any use ?
Not a tin roof, but in that data sheet you posted they do show a "beam and block" type system, which would be great. Or a poured concrete slab would be even better. Seal that well, and you can put whatever you want on top.How to build a simple roof, maybe just a standard flat tin roof or a concrete slab (with grass on top) ?
Not necessary! You can build your own treatment using wood, MDF and mineral wool insulation. That's all you need.For room treatment I will have to import Auralex Foam products I guess.
The program is probably OK... but you need to calibrate it first! The computer just receives a digital signal from the mic and interface, but it has no way of knowing what that signal represents in the real world. You have to tell it that the level it is seeing is actually XX.X decibels, and from then on it knows how to calculate all other levels (provided that you don't change any settings, or use a different mic!).Yeah, I measured the dB levels with an application on my computer, had no idea that the results are totally useless.
So why peoples build this useless programs at all ???
Así es, vecino!Just realized that we almost neighbors, how small is the world
Right. It seems like it will be your best option.I am feeling, that a double brick wall is the way to go for me, gives me good insulation and materials are easy available, affordable
Nope! For mineral wool, you need to find stuff that has a density of about 50 kg/m3, roughly. That's the optimum, for most acoustic applications. If you use stuff that is heavier than that, then it won't do so well at absorbing low frequencies. And if you use stuff that is much lighter than that, then it won't do so well at absorbing high frequencies. But probably anything in the range 40 kg/m3 to about 60 kg/m3 would be reasonably good.Must source out Rock-wool sheets, but I guess the heavier and tighter, the better.
If you use fiberglass, then the optimum density is about 30 kg/m3, and you could use anything in the range 20 kg/m3 to about 40 kg/m3. The properties of different types of insinuation are not the same: it is important to use the correct density of each type.Glass-wool is readily available here everywhere and cheap, maybe I use that
Nope! You should NEVER compress insulation much, as that changes it's characteristics: it makes it more dense, so it becomes worse for low frequencies. It also prevents the tiny fibers from moving as they should, so it is less efficient at absorbing sound. Just leave it as it is.and when I pack it tight together it could work too ???
You will need that meter for many tests along the way, and to calibrate REW when the time comes to do room tuning, and to calibrate your speakers when you do the final setup, and to make sure that you are always mixing at sensible levels, always, for ever....Do I really have to flock out 100 Bucks to measure the exact DB levels ?
Nope! Isolation does not necessarily depend on thickness, and increasing the mass of a single-leaf wall does not have much effect on the total isolation.... It's a lot more complicated than that, and is not intuitive...I just build a bit thicker walls to be sure NO sound enters into my room
Right distance for what? That's like you asking me "I'm going to get 3 liters, is that enough?" Enough for WHAT? Unless you first now what spectrum you need to isolate, and what level you need to isolate at each frequency, then I can't tell you of 10cm is enough, too much, or not enough. There are equations for calculating all this, but I need the input numbers ....I am thinking of building two 20 cm (or maybe 30 cm for the outside wall) thick walls with a 10 cm gap (what would be the right distance)
Neither do I, unless you give me the data I need!Maybe two 12cm/12 cm walls would do the job too, I have no idea ?
Right!Outside wall sealed with plaster,
Why do you want a gap? An MSM isolation wall is more effective when the cavity is completely filled with insulation, and it is touching both leaves, but not compressed very much.inside wall 10 cm Rock-wool on the wall on a 2" x 6" wooden frame (5 cm gap between wall and insulation),
No, no, and no. You do not ever want to create a 3-leaf wall if you can avoid it. That will make your isolation worse, not better. You can only use diffusers if the room is large enough to allow it. Diffusers have lobing patterns up close: you have to keep them far enough away from your ears that the lobing does not affect what you hear.covered with wooden panels (10 mm), to make it a bit cosy.
On the inner walls Absorbers made of MDF and Rockwool and maybe some Diffusers too.
Actually the inner insulation could be used as Absorbers, when covered with cloth, instead of wooden panels.
It's not that they "won't hurt": it is that you absolutely MUST have them! It is a small room: it will need many large, deep, bass traps. That goes without saying.Bass-Traps in the corners would not hurt too.
No. Carpet is a bad idea in a studio: it does the opposite of what you need, acoustically. Forget carpet.15 cm Concrete slap for the floor, with some kind of carpet on top
No. Never use hollow-core doors for a studio: the cavity inside is a resonant system. Use only solid-core doors, that are very, very massive.Doors made of double walled Steel, heavy insulated with 10 cm Rock-wool
No. Double glazing panels have very lousy low frequency isolation, and having two double panels means you have a 4-leaf system, which has terrible low frequency isolation! What you need is thick laminated glass. One pane of 22mm laminated glass in the outer leaf, and another one in the inner leaf. That's all. And make sure you get laminated glass that has the special acoustic PVB: it is a bit better than that standard PVB.1 (2) Small window(s), about 80cm x 30 cm, (just to let some light in) with 10mm/8mm double glass in each wall.
No, no and no! HVAC for studios is VERY complicated: you can't do it the way you suggest. You need silencer boxes, to stop the sound going in and out while allowing the air to flow, they need to be the correct size for your room, you need proper HVAC fans that move the right volume of air at the right speed when faced with the static pressure created by your system: computer fans are not meant to be used with any static pressure load at all! They would simply stall and do nothing. You also need the correct size ducts and registers, and you need a mini-split system to heat, cool, and dehumidify the air.Ventilation with quiet solar driven computer fans, mounted outside the building, air goes trough trough foam insulated sound traps.
Right!This construction would be a bunker, that's for sure and probably cost me a small fortune
It will take many months to design the studio correctly: If you hire a studio designer to do it, it will take two or three months, probably. If you do it yourself, it will take MUCH longer, as you will first need to learn all about acoustics (at least 4 to 6 months), then you will need to learn all about studio construction techniques (another 3 or 4 months), then another 4 or 5 months to do the actual design. So yes, I'd agree that you should plan to start building in 2017, if you want to design it yourself. Or perhaps in May or June, if you hire a designer to do it for you.If it gets too costly, I postpone it for next year, no point to safe money and then I have the same what I have now
Why????As there should be no parallel wall on the whole construction,
No, none at all: that's another myth...Would the so often recommended diamond shape bring big huge benefits ?
What about a PYRAMID shape,
I'd suggest two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais.Could you please recommend me good literature which will help me on my way ?
Not really, because all rooms are different. Unless your space is exactly identical to what the plans were meant for, you'll have to adapt them anyway. And in order to adapt them, you still need to understand acoustics, construction, etc....Are there any good stock plans available for small home studios which are worth the money ?
Very true!The internet is full of crap and it is very difficult to sort out the right staff.
Maybe not as much as you think, but a studio designer can actually save you money, because you won't make the design mistakes that first-time studio builders often make, and you wont need to go back, take things down, fix them, do them again.... You will also not fall into the trap of buying expensive materials that you don't need, or building expensive things that you don't need.... The fee that you would pay a good studio designer, you will get back by NOT wasting money on all of those mistakes!To hire a studio designer will probably be out of my financial range
You will need it! A studio must be sealed air-tight in order to work properly... but you need to breathe...I had not in mind to build a HVAC at all ...
Then your needs are simple, you only need a simple isolation solution, and you only need design and treatment for voice, not for music. That makes it a bit easier. Your design will not need the extremes that many forum members have to go to.I am just recording voice overs for self hypnosis products (no music recordings at all), not creating state of the art music compositions, just simple mixing (putting my voice over ready made background sound)
Cool! My Ferrari is doing great as well! I have already saved about 3% of what I'll need to buy it! In about a hundred years from now, I should have enough!I started driving a car on a 20 year old car, the Ferrari came just a bit later, just kidding
Then I would suggest that you design the complete studio, with everything you will need, but only build the most basic part of it now. Then you can add the other parts in later, as you need them. So design the entire building, complete, and build the outer shell with the roof, but then just build the minimum inside that is just enough to do what you need now. Then when you need other parts, you can add those, one at a time.I need a minimum approach to get me going, the studio is the end goal of course .....
Not really! Most people listen to music on earbuds these days, on their cell phones, but I don't know of anybody who mixes on ear buds! You should still mix on speakers, because you need to hear the full sound of what you are mixing, with both ears, then you check the final mix on headphones to make sure it sounds good there too. You can hear details on the speakers in a room that you won't be able to hear on your specific headphones, but that other people might notice on theirs...My products will be listened via headphones all the time, therefore I should do all my mixing via headphones too I guess, to get a good and optimal quality product for the user. (probably have to mix via headphones to get it right)
That's what the forum is here for!Thanks again for all the time you spend for me, I really appreciate that, saves me a lot of mistakes.
That does, indeed, sound hopeful.One of the questions was “Where the wooden frame meets the inside and outside cladding there will be a sound bridge – is that a problem?” which gives me hope that they are up to the task.
Assuming that you really do built is just a single leaf, with sheathing on only one side of the studs / joists, then yes, that would be fine.... for the two sides of the boot that are close to existing wall! but for the other two sides, you do need to complete the second leaf, to fully enclose the booth. That second leaf can contact only the existing walls: it cannot touch the new inner-leaf walls.the single leaf wall of the booth is effectively acting as the inner leaf and since it’s not connected to the walls of the room, there is no sound bridge?
As long as you have about 4" (10cm) air gap, that should be fine. That's the distance between the surface of your existing wall and the surface of the sheathing on your new inner-leaf wall, not considering the studs or insulation: that doesn't count.If that’s the case, should the booth sit some distance away from the walls (I don’t have much space for that).
Regarding the inside cladding, John has already answered that one (no cladding on the inside, just fabric on pine frames).
Any fabfri will work, as long as it is "breathable". In other words, if you place a piece over your mouth and nose, you can breath through it normally, without difficulty. There can be an increase in the air resistance, yes, but not a huge increase so that it makes breathing significantly harder.Does the fabric need to be that special, acoustically neutral variety that I have seen advertised or will any fabric work?
Do it like this: It's just normal electrical conduit (PVC) bent to shape, with a short cut-out section in the middle. maybe an inch long, wrapped with flexible soft rubber Seal all the penetrations with caulk, and after you pull the wiring through, push insulation down each end of the conduit and seal the end with more caulk.Is an XLR chassis connector what’s needed here to go through the drywall?
Same as above.Regarding the power penetration, I’m thinking of locating that diagonally opposite, in the bottom left corner. If I specify a vapour sealed electrical box, will that suffice or is there a higher mass / special audio version I should use?
For what you are doing, yes, that's basically all you need to do, provided that that solution would be allowable by your local electrical code. You'll have to cut the plug off so you can push the cable through the conduit, then attach a new plug once that is done.My construction knowledge is surpassed only by my electrical knowledge Is there anything I need to do for grounding? I read the posts about star grounding but I’m guessing (hoping) that applies more to full studio wiring. Ideally I would like to simply plug in an extension cord to power the booth. Can it be that simple?
Depends how much time you plan top spend in there! if it's just a couple of minutes per day, then that's fine. But if you will be in there for several hours per day, then it is NOT an option! You would have to do that. You can't be inside a small booth like that without any air...John mentioned that the ventilation ducts were optional which is great since I don’t have room for them.
If the door is open, then you don't have an isolation booth.... You only get isolation with the door closed.I’m guessing I will need to turn on a fan inside the booth as well as opening the door.
... as well as the size of the air gap between the inner leaf and the outer leaf...Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems the STC rating for the booth will be determined by the density of the drywall sheets used on the outside,
It's the surface density that matters. How much each square meter of your wall weighs.Should I then simply choose the highest density drywall available here for maximum isolation?
How much isolation do you need, in decibels? That's the key.If doors (single or double leaf) “should have at least two full perimeter seals”, why does the one in the .swf appear to only have one? Is it because it’s one of those $5000 beauties I can’t afford?
Sam as above: "How much isolation do you need, in decibels? "I suspect it may be cheaper for me to have a solid core door but I would prefer the openness of glass. Again, without knowing the drywall density, would 30mm laminated glass and 125kg solid core be a reasonable guesstimate for quotation purposes?
Confirmed! No floor is necessary. You'll be fine with the mat. Just make sure that the walls of the booth are sealed to the floor tiles, using caulk.Please confirm that I do not need to put a floor in the booth
For that type of unevenness, caulk is the best answer. You can use normal bathroom caulk: the type the never goes hard, and remains soft and rubbery even after it is fully cured.The tiles in my room are flat, but I was wondering if I should put a strip layer of rubber (5mm?) under the walls to fill any air gaps created by the grout lines between the tiles and to help compensate for any unevenness in the floor?
Run all your signal cables through one single conduit, as I showed above.. Make it big.envisage installation on a swinging arm that is attached to the drywall. That may mean a third penetration though, depending on the depth of the screws required. How bad is that?
No problem.Do you know if wifi will penetrate the booth?
Your friend seems to be sadly mistaken if he plans to hold rehearsals of an entire band inside a vocal booth! Vocal booths are usually big enough for one person to stand in.Martha Bern wrote:Hi! Have you figured out, which vocal booth design is the best in terms of functionality? The thing is that a friend of mine is crazy about music and he has a band of his own called "T-Stars". He's made up his mind to build a vocal booth to hold rehearsals there and I'd really wish to help him with the best design. Thanks in advance for your recommendations, guys!
It would be a good idea to start your own thread, about your specific studio build, and keep all of your posts about that together in the same thread. That way, it's easy to keep track of everything relating to it.This being my first post please forgive me if I go about posting or asking anything in a wrong manner here.
That's a reasonable size space for a control room, not so much if you want more than one room in there: and the ceiling is very low. Is that the measurement from the floor to the bottom of the ceiling? Any chance you can take out the ceiling drywall, to get more height?It's roughly about 11' W x 18' L x 7' H.
Try to avoid dimensions that are directly related mathematically: Twice the length is equal to three times the width (2x6=12, 3x4=12). That would create the situation where certain resonances inside the room would reinforce each other at certain frequencies- Not a good thing for a studio!I have a vocal/isolated booth roughed in at about 4'x6'.
Are you saying that you directly attached the booth to one of the outer-leaf walls of the house, such that one of the interior walls of the booth is that brick wall? Are you aware that you will not be able to get high isolation like this?Now I built the booth off a 8" thick brick wall
From what you describe, technically the duct is not outside the booth: it is in between the inner-leaf and outer-leaf, meaning that it is not isolated. Noise from your booth will get into the duct, and vice versa.Now the heating/cooling duct for the whole room runs directly over the vocal booth and is now outside the booth.
Assuming that the duct in question was already supplying air to your basement, then yes... with caveats! But if that duct was NOT supplying your basement, then no. For example, if it was supplying your living room, or a bedroom, or some other room, then tapping of air for the booth would reduce the airflow to that other room (or rooms), unbalancing the design of the HVAC system. There would be insufficient flow to the other rooms.Now my first question is can I just tap that duct with a Tee seeing that it's running right over the vocal booth for Heat and Ac?
That depends on a whole bunch of things, but the main one is something called "static pressure". If the path that the air would take though the registers that lead into and out of your booth would substantially increase the static pressure for the duct that is supplying it, then yes, you would need a fan: in your case, you would need an in-line fan at some point, either on the supply duct into the room, or the return duct leaving the room. In either case, it would have to go on the far side of the relevant silencer box: wither before the supply silencer, or after the return silencer. If not, then the fan noise would get into the room, the mics, etc. You would need to calculate the characteristics of the fan, in terms of flow rate, flow speed, and static pressure, to ensure that it provides the correct conditions to do the job.And will I or won't I need a exhaust fan of some kind?
No. The thickness needs to be calculated for each individual case. It needs to have at least the same surface density as the leaf that it is in. So the glass on the inner-leaf of your wall would need to match the density of the inner-leaf, and the other glass would need to match the density of the outer leaf.The window glass, is there a standard thickness for each glass?
That one is simple! 1) The angle is 90°. 2) You do not angle either side! Despite what you see in photos of "high-end" studios, and even in some misleading text books (as well as an infinite number of YouTube videos about "How I built my world-class studio for seventeen dollars and twenty three cents... ), it is an absolute myth that you need to angle your glass for acoustic reasons. You MIGHT need to angle it for visual reasons: if you expect that you'll have lighting issues that prevent you from seeing through it, or some type of glare. But there's no acoustic need at all to do that.And the angle of the glass, how is that determined? Do you angle both sides?
Assuming you want maximum isolation, you would need to run it through a conduit that has a small isolation break in the middle to decouple the two ends, wrap the gap with some type of flexible rubber, then plug both ends with insulation and caulk. However, for a typical home studio, it is probably enough to just run the snake through reinforced "boxes" in the two leaves of the wall, but NOT straight across the gap: in other words, the cable goes through one leaf and immediately curves until it is parallel to the wall surface. Then it runs along several feet, bends the other way, and goes through the second leaf.And running a snake into the booth. What would be the best way for doing that?