John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Yeah... The fact that there's a gap between the upper and lower joists that allows the air under the duct to move to the sides into the neighboring cavities is, I think, your saving grace.

I wonder if some conservative use of mass loaded vinyl -- a product that we joyfully attack here at every opportunity -- would have some use in this particular case...

--Keith

sharward wrote:
....I wonder if some conservative use of mass loaded vinyl -- a product that we joyfully attack here at every opportunity -- would have some use in this particular case...

--Keith

I think I will use the lead sheet for that purpose... it's denser, as limp as, and possibly better to use than MLV... plus, I already have a roll of it, and my bro can get me more if need be...

I'll try to design a cross-section with details to get some more comments for refinements and such...

thanx,
K

Kenni,
I have been waiting for something to come along in my field of expertise.
Hopefully this will help Sorry I just realized what was going on.

I 'assume' there is no vapor barrier or damp-proofing on the outdoor faces of the concrete....

If the house was built in the 60s there could be a bituminus material applied.(Black mastic/coal tar) But more than likely not.

So, how should I treat the concrete?

The perferred method is stop water form point of entry but not always the most cost effective.
Excavate and coat wall, install a perf pipe at the exterior footing. Filter fabric and back filled with 3/4" minus rock.

There is currently a black colored sealant on the inside face of the concrete.

This material should not be there for the simple fact it does not have proper negative side adhesion characteristics. With that said there are negative side materials that are cement based and applied by a stiff bristle broom. The only problem with that is you need the concrete to be clean and exposed.
OR The newest and most popular (because of time and money) is a perf pipe installed interior, at the footing, underneath the slab with a sump pump.

Should I treat the concrete with something, just paint it, or.....?

If you are talking about the walls I have answered that above and if you are talking about the floor in most cases taking care of the water at the walls would stop most of your floor vapor/water transmissions

Depending on your finish floor materials, especially if they are a direct glue down. ie; carpet, vinyl, tile or a glued wood floor you need to check the vapor transmission coming through your floor slab. You can buy a Calcium chloride test at most commercial flooring supply houses. If you do not have a Gram scale for this make sure and ask if they do and can weigh the results for you.
Below is literature of materials that can be applied and get the vapor emissions down to an exceptable level.
I have attached some foundation detail drawings of different perf pipe installations.

As far as coatings for exterior walls. Tremco is probably your easiest to find.
Again you can only get these materials in a Commercial store. The stuff at HD and Lowes is a waste of money.
http://www.tremcosealants.com/commercia ... asp?id=166

Coatings for Interior cement walls
http://www.thoroproducts.com/product_de ... ct_id=T400

Vapor transmission barrier (floor only)
http://www.mapei.it/referenze/Multimedi ... _TD_EA.pdf

In addition to..........
You and Steve are right. The more water you can keep away from the house will make the rest of your water stop more succesful.

I just wanted to put a few clarifications in about the concrete walls and floors:

-- I'm not planning on any attached floor surfaces, such as tile, rug, wood, etc.
-- I AM planning on sealing the concrete floor with some sort of epoxy or epoxy/cement... this will be hopefully to seal any slight seepage, and to create a 'nice' surface... mostly concerned about any 'old work' nail holes, and seams/cracks where street plumbing had been installed

-- I'm not planning on the Waterguard system, as this is extremely invasive, especially considering my needs
-- I AM planning on a system similar to DryTrak; there is another one call SquidGee [sp], which is surface mounted gutter track... actually, my brother who is in plastics, will be helping me to find an appropriate angle PVC and adhesive(s) to attach the gutter...
-- However, I AM fleeting with the idea of grinding a shallow (say 1/2 inch deep) and fairly narrow (2 to 3 inch wide) gutter along the walls to 'compliment' the PVC gutter.

If I can have all seepage (which is minor, even in event of pretty major rain/thaw) at the juncture of the wall and floor, AND keep the floor itself sealed, I would be very happy with that arrangement.

All gutters will lead to the sumps (I have 2 sumps, and 2 pumps)...
Furthermore, the sumps will be powered by inverters hooked to batteries and then through a battery charger to house current (to protect when power outages occur during heavy rains/thaws).
Sumps only run during SUSTAINED rain/thaw events (I'm talking days, or with already high water tables)...

*** So now, my main concern is to grind the gutters, and grind/surface and epoxy the floor ... oh, and I'd still like to know what to surface the wall with -- if anything at all ***

thanx,
K

-Kenni

-

-- I'm not planning on any attached floor surfaces, such as tile, rug, wood, etc.

I AM planning on sealing the concrete floor with some sort of epoxy or epoxy/cement

...

An epoxy floor would be the same as tile or glued flooring. Epoxy is a non breathable material and if you do have Vapor coming through your floor slab it will push the epoxy off.
However if you can abrade the floor you can put down an MBR epoxy first and then coat the floor with an epoxy.
The term "epoxy cement" would probably be a polymer modified cement. Those are breathable and can be coated with an acrylic sealer which is also breathable and would not warrant an MBR (moisture barrier reducer)

-- I AM planning on a system similar to DryTrak; there is another one call SquidGee [sp],

I went and looked at this application and can not comment since I am not familiar with it. Having 13 years in the business the only thing I have seen like this is exterior weeps on block wall or brick applications. Do you have block wall? or concrete?

. oh, and I'd still like to know what to surface the wall with -- if anything at all ***

Quote:
There is currently a black colored sealant on the inside face of the concrete.


This material should not be there for the simple fact it does not have proper negative side adhesion characteristics. With that said there are negative side materials that are cement based and applied by a stiff bristle broom. The only problem with that is you need the concrete to be clean and exposed

Coatings for Interior cement walls
http://www.thoroproducts.com/product_de ... ct_id=T400

But with this coating for your wall you would have as much if not more success than the gutters you are looking at. But then again you have the black coating to remove if you go with the cement based coating.

Kenni,I make a great living at water intrusion and vapor remediation. My phone goes off the hook in our rainy seasons. I have seen all types of damage and problems that people let go and over the years it destroys all types of materials. The biggest part of my business is flooring of all types over concrete. So I am just trying to help and give you a heads up. I have enjoyed all the info I have gotten from this site and just want to give back when I can.
Tom

TomVan wrote: Kenni

An epoxy floor would be the same as tile or glued flooring. Epoxy is a non breathable material and if you do have Vapor coming through your floor slab it will push the epoxy off.
However if you can abrade the floor you can put down an MBR epoxy first and then coat the floor with an epoxy.
The term "epoxy cement" would probably be a polymer modified cement. Those are breathable and can be coated with an acrylic sealer which is also breathable and would not warrant an MBR (moisture barrier reducer)

I would imagine that an epoxy cement would be better then?

TomVan wrote: Do you have block wall? or concrete?

It's poured concrete all around.... 12-14 inches thick in the walls.

TomVan wrote: This material should not be there for the simple fact it does not have proper negative side adhesion characteristics. With that said there are negative side materials that are cement based and applied by a stiff bristle broom. The only problem with that is you need the concrete to be clean and exposed

I agree that the black coating has to go... in fact, it has even been pushed off the surface in some low areas...

And, I would like to prep the surfaces for something else.
Is that something I could do myself, or should I job it out to someone?
If I did do it myself, I'm sure that I would need to rent some sort of equipment?

TomVan wrote: http://www.thoroproducts.com/product_de ... ct_id=T400
But with this coating for your wall you would have as much if not more success than the gutters you are looking at. But then again you have the black coating to remove if you go with the cement based coating.

Tom

This stuff sounds great (maybe almost 'too' great?)...
So, I could use this over both the walls and the floor...

I don't have any seepage that I can notice coming from the walls, only a touch from the floor during extreme situations.
But yet I want to cover all the surfaces,
And I still would want some sort of gutter system just in case some spots weren't covered enough, or some other crack develops, or the water heater bursts (will have a pan for that though).

How about this stuff? It's call Epotoxy:
http://www.lsepoxies.com/EpoToxy.html

Is this similar to the Thoro stuff?

thanx,
K

Kenni,

Hoefully I have'nt totally confused you yet but I will try and explain as best as I can.

You have two areas that potentially need two different types of repair.

Your floor... if it has seepage during rain cycles you have a problem. If its large or small you should take care of it so you dont run into problems down the road.
A polymer modified cement does not have epoxy in it...Remember EPOXYs do not breath...impervious...and typically do not have moisture anchoring properties .
Mapei makes a self leveler (polymer modified cement) that is available at Lowes. It goes down at 1/4" thickness and will smooth out imperfections in your floor. It can be sealed by an Acrylic water based sealer.
The only potential problem you might have is that the seepage you are seeing during rain cycles may rear their ugly head and still come through. That is why you need to seal the floor with an MBR material prior to any floor covering.

As far as the walls go yes I would take off the black mastic.
Now take warning here.
Get up close and scratch the black mastic. If you can smell a deisel/creasote smell that means you have what is called Coal Tar.
It is a carcinogen (sp) So if you had a contractor come and do it they would call it an abatement and charge lots of $. If you do it yourself make sure and wear full protective clothing and a Hepa respirator.

If no smell Just wear normal demo gear with dust mask. But let me tell you it wont be easy. The best way I have found to remove it is with a 7" grinder with a #8 emery grit. extremely aggressive. Because you are basically working to remove a rubber/goo material.

The Thoro product is very easy to use for your walls only. It is not a wearing surface type material even if you coat it. So no do not use it for your floor.

I read the data sheeet on the Epotoxy. It is a basic 100% solids epoxy that you mix with sand to make a mortar. These are generally used for repairing holes or spawls in concrete. Very hard to work with if you do not have the experience. And will not stop moisture/vapor

Ok now go take on the world
T

Tom, I agree with Sharward 100% - your expertise in this area is really valuable to the site; thank you. In the interest of clarity, I edited a few typos that could have confused, don't think I changed any meaning. Damn cheap computer keyboards, anyway (Hope this was OK) - Steve

Tom, you're quite a welcome contributor here! I hope I can call upon you when I have questions in my project. I actually am coming up to a point where I'll need to ask you something...

--Keith

Keith,
I have taken so much from here that I am very happy to give back.
I can't wait to get my project off the ground so you guys can tell me what to do Tell me to stop what I am doing Tear it down and start over
T

Tom, at least help may be closer than you realize; I live about 15 miles east of Albany, so if you REALLY get in a pickle... Steve

Steve,
I will hold you to it.
I wondered how far south you lived. I looked at a few other posts and thought you lived by Springfield. Glad to know you are so close.
Tom

TomVan wrote: Hoefully I have'nt totally confused you yet ....

Ah, too late for that! I have to confess, I am a bit confused....

TomVan wrote:
You have two areas that potentially need two different types of repair.

The floor and the walls? I think I can kinda see how these should be approached differently....

TomVan wrote: Your floor... if it has seepage during rain cycles you have a problem. If its large or small you should take care of it so you dont run into problems down the road.

Well, the seepage is:
1.) Only during extreme rain events -- I mean like the '70 year' flooding of the North Shore that we had a few weeks ago.
2.) Only in areas where there are seams between 'new' concrete that covers plumbing installations, and where nails had been put through the floor.
3.) Only really pretty minor during the major events

Even during the major events, the rest of the concrete remains surprisingly dry.
But that aside, I still want to ensure things for the future...

TomVan wrote: A polymer modified cement does not have epoxy in it...Remember EPOXYs do not breath...impervious...and typically do not have moisture anchoring properties .

I need to understand more of these concepts... is there anywhere I can read about them to find out more -- in order to be a truly 'informed' person undertaking these proceedures, or contracting others for it?

TomVan wrote: Mapei makes a self leveler (polymer modified cement) that is available at Lowes. It goes down at 1/4" thickness and will smooth out imperfections in your floor. It can be sealed by an Acrylic water based sealer.
The only potential problem you might have is that the seepage you are seeing during rain cycles may rear their ugly head and still come through. That is why you need to seal the floor with an MBR material prior to any floor covering.

So, I would seal the floor first with the MBR (which is?), and then put the Mapei stuff down, and then the acrylic sealer?
But should I resurface (meaning grind) the concrete first, before anything?

TomVan wrote: As far as the walls go yes I would take off the black mastic.
Get up close and scratch the black mastic. If you can smell a deisel/creasote smell that means you have what is called Coal Tar.
...
If you do it yourself make sure and wear full protective clothing and a Hepa respirator.
If no smell Just wear normal demo gear with dust mask. But let me tell you it wont be easy. The best way I have found to remove it is with a 7" grinder with a #8 emery grit. extremely aggressive. Because you are basically working to remove a rubber/goo material.

I will make the test, but I don't think that this stuff is coal tar...
I guess I'm gonna have to buy a bigger grinder then....
I presume I should get one with a wet/dry vac attachment, as there will be lots of dust/mess? (also block off other areas at a time while working, and exhaust the working area with a fan?)

TomVan wrote: The Thoro product is very easy to use for your walls only. It is not a wearing surface type material even if you coat it. So no do not use it for your floor.

What I really need is something that is going to last -- on the walls in particular...

Is there anyway you could give me a sorta 'blueprint' on how to proceed with all the major steps, and very importantly, with the most proper and best products to use?

TomVan wrote: I read the data sheeet on the Epotoxy. It is a basic 100% solids epoxy that you mix with sand to make a mortar. These are generally used for repairing holes or spawls in concrete. Very hard to work with if you do not have the experience. And will not stop moisture/vapor

I am again confused between the 'allowing concrete to breath' versus 'sealing out water'...
I mean, I know that concrete is pretty hygroscopic, and needs to be able to pass moisture (and not continuously hold it), but this should be in a controlled way, right?
We don't want water to pass through as a liquid, but it NEEDS to pass through -- at a certain small rate -- as a vapor, correct?

What is maybe most important in all of this is to be able to decipher the sales pitches from the real deal information about the materials and methods that are true...

I don't think I'm ready yet to have a game plan on how to proceed...
HELP!

Keep in mind, the ENTIRE basement -- floor and walls -- are planned to be done... and most likely in an area-wise, and step-wise fashion....

TomVan wrote: Ok now go take on the world
T

Is that the 'Waterworld'?

Anyway, I have to concur with what others have said: your expertise is and will be a valuable asset to this forum -- especially seeing as so many studio projects seem to involve basements...

thanx,
K

Well, the seepage is:
1.) Only during extreme rain events -- I mean like the '70 year' flooding of the North Shore that we had a few weeks ago.
2.) Only in areas where there are seams between 'new' concrete that covers plumbing installations, and where nails had been put through the floor.
3.) Only really pretty minor during the major events
Even during the major events, the rest of the concrete remains surprisingly dry.
But that aside, I still want to ensure things for the future...

From what you are telling me your problem is extremely minimal. Lets start back where I would approach your job.
Go buy 2 Calcium Chloride test kits from a local flooring distributor.
You will need a gram scale to weigh the petri dish before and after.
If you do not have one they should and generally can weigh it for you.
If you are under 5 pounds go for an epoxy coating. NO MBR needed for under 5 pounds.
Preperation of the floor is going to be 90% of the work. Make sure and grind it to clean concrete. Chase out your cracks, saw cuts and control joints making then 1/4" x 1/4". Fill them and any holes/spawls with any 100% solids epoxy let dry and grind flush next day.
For your coating you would want a 60% solids epoxy. Thin the first coat with 10% laquer thinner (not paint thinner) second coat just normal mix.
Two thin coats are better than one thick coat, Especially since the material is 60% solids. If you put it on too thick 40% flashes away and will shrink, stay rubbery and take forever to cure out.

I need to understand more of these concepts... is there anywhere I can read about them to find out more -- in order to be a truly 'informed' person undertaking these proceedures, or contracting others for it?

Its taken me years to truly decifer from the sales hype and the actual. I am here as much as you need me. PM me any time and I will give you my phone number.

So, I would seal the floor first with the MBR (which is?), and then put the Mapei stuff down, and then the acrylic sealer?
But should I resurface (meaning grind) the concrete first, before anything?

OK if you are over 5 pounds yes the MBR
Vapor transmission barrier (floor only)
http://www.mapei.it/referenze/Multimedi ... _TD_EA.pdf
The self levler is by Mapei also. Any more you can buy any brand of self leveler if you want. Just make sure it does not has Gypsum in it. And it is over 4000 PSI.
Preperation would be grind or Scarify to clean sound concrete
Install the MBR
Install the Self Leveler or epoxy (depending on how rough your floor is) The self levler goes down at 1/4" and will hide all those deficiencies where the epoxy will highlight them
Seal with Acrylic if you use the self leveler

I will make the test, but I don't think that this stuff is coal tar...
I guess I'm gonna have to buy a bigger grinder then....
I presume I should get one with a wet/dry vac attachment, as there will be lots of dust/mess? (also block off other areas at a time while working, and exhaust the working area with a fan?)

Exactly..

What I really need is something that is going to last -- on the walls in particular...

The Thoroseal is probably one of the best out there. Just be aware that water proofing and dampproofing are two different things.

Reveal concrete under black mastic to as clean as you can get it.
Wash the wall down with water.
Mist the entire surface so it is SSD "surface saturated dry"
Mix material 5 gallon bucket
6" stiff bristle brush
Dunk and broom, 2 coats, one direction one time and the other for the second coat

I am again confused between the 'allowing concrete to breath' versus 'sealing out water'...
I mean, I know that concrete is pretty hygroscopic, and needs to be able to pass moisture (and not continuously hold it), but this should be in a controlled way, right?
We don't want water to pass through as a liquid, but it NEEDS to pass through -- at a certain small rate -- as a vapor, correct?

Awesome...You got it.!!! All concrete breaths to some extent.
There is a fine line between Vapor and Moisture. Once the vapor levels get too high it turns into visible moisture. If you have elevated vapor and trap it with an epoxy anything over 5 pounds of pressure can push a non breathable coating/vinyl off. If its a wood floor ..well you know, wood can rot and you would'nt know it until it was too late in most cases. With epoxy floors I have walked into a finished job an saw 2-4" bubbles raised as much as a half inch. Poked them with a Knife and water went squirting out
With an MBR it locks out all vapor and moisture. Here in the NW we are probably the leaders in making these work.

What is maybe most important in all of this is to be able to decipher the sales pitches from the real deal information about the materials and methods that are true...

Just hook me up with the data sheet and I can tell you what you have.
There is a lot of Snake Oil out there and we all get suckered in at some point.

I don't think I'm ready yet to have a game plan on how to proceed...
HELP!

1. Dome test (calcium Chloride) on floor
2. Remove black mastic from walls
3. Have beer
4. Have another beer
5. Coat walls
6. Install floor ..per dome test readings
7. Straight shot ...maybe two

T

Tom....
If you are listening in, I just pulled off a big piece of the 'black coating' on the inside of the walls....

As I had mentioned, pieces of this near the wall bottoms had been coming loose (I think, as you stated, that they were 'pushed' off the wall)...

Again though, there has been no water coming through the walls themselves anywhere (certainly nothing visible or palpable)... and this was even during the recent major '70 year' rain/flood event that this region had a few weeks ago (in which many many rivers, streams overflowed and buildings flooded)...

Yet it bugs me that the black coating was pushed off;
perhaps this was partly due to the 'old work' (70's 80's) stud wall that was directly adjacent to the concrete, with fiberglass insulation (right between the studs and right on the concrete) with a kraft face toward to interior of the basement... AND the basement was never dehumidified until I took it over like 3 years ago...
(this basement is also COLD all year long.... with no dehumidification, the condensation in summer was probably quite great).

Anyway, the pieces of black coating that came off don't smell at all (I can't seem to smell any odor whatsoever); they seem rather 'plastic-like'...
So, I'm guessing that this is not coal tar -- in fact this coating was put on in the late 70's or early 80's, and not in 1960.... so I'm thinking coal tar was not in use that late (?)....
Looks like it's gonna be alot safer to grind it off the walls ...

One more thing (for now): assuming I didn't really 'need' the MRB layer, would it hurt if it were there anyway?

I'm gonna be reading a bunch of stuff on this subject in order to understand things better -- especially about available products...

thanx,
K