John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Pretty simple concept put forward that it seems possible to make smaller rooms work and that I didn't understand why what I had would not be possible. Not sure why your immediate reaction was to take offence. I never said or implied it was stupid. In my mind he had presented those specs and you helped him solve the issues with that chosen route.

Insulted you to your face? when, In what way?

I'll admit it's really easy to take things online out of context and project things onto others words. "man this guys sounds like a real such and such" I've had to take a moment after reading stuff some times and come back later, reread and give people the benefit of the doubt. It's better to do that than get all worked up about words online.

How about "Wow gee willikers that really is an amazing design, How did you ever get those dimensions to work, you must be a real genius and a true hero!" That was a joke, Come on mate do I really have to placate your ego to get a reasonable response is that your idea of civility? THIS IS NOT A STATEMENT ABOUT YOUR ABILITIES OR INTELLIGENCE WHICH ARE OBVIOUS .

I am asking for assistance, not demanding it but If you expect me to pucker up and plant one on your posterior you are delusional

You are the one shooting down because of obstacles of said dimensions instead of expressing the amount of work it would require not me.

Another small room(Martins's) made to work and I'm not seeing any exchange of money or offering of services

I assumed that your limiting factor might be monetary and almost said something earlier but didn't want it perceived as instigation. While never opposed to the idea, you never offered your services in any professional capacity.

A simple "Hey based on what you're working with and your space limitations to make that design work will take a good amount acoustical correction/design and I'm willing to work with you, my standard fee is...etc.".

I would love to have some of this stuff sorted for me in exchange for money!

But where does it start and where does it end. Right now it's just a bad sketch up based on split between the available space and Amroc not really sure what else there is to go off other than making it as big as possible.

And yet again I resize my available space that I would like to use based on space factors and you tell me just make it bigger.

I don't wanna reduce the live room more than it is already, other than air space and inner leaf construction .

I would have liked to have loft space open to the live room but it limits the size of the control room too much.

I thought I would be able to do a normal two rooms within one( live room and control) and leave some storage space above the control room that would be part of the air gap/ sound lock space but even that wont provide enough room for the control room

What a ordeal!

Hi SunkenCity,

I can see you and Stuart seem to have gotten caught up in some kind of misunderstanding/grievance whether intentional or not, but should we get back to the point?

Span tables for timber joists generally don't go down lower than 400mm (16inch) spacing, so unless you will get a structural engineer to calculate it for you, you will need to stick to span tables. My trada span table sats that 47mm x 120mm (5 × 2) joists will support with a clear span of 2.63m (8 foot 8 inches) providing there is only 0.25N of weight on it (would need quite light ceiling treatments). Although you mention you're going inside out, so joist depth makes no difference right?
If you're doing inside out walls you won't need to go with log cabin style stacked walls either, which would save money and time. Just do a simple 4x2 frame covered with gypsum with 6x2 joists for your ceiling and be safe.

With regards to the control room height, I would recommend going tall as you don't have much width. If you just start with the max height you have after your ceiling joists and mass, you have the height up there probably for some nice ceiling diffusers.

If you're going for a RFZ as Greg says, start by putting your speakers in place on Sketchup and drawing some rays shooting forward from them and draw another ray for the reflection off the first surface it hits. Draw a new ray for each 5 degree off axis, up to 35 degree off axis for the mid/high frequencies. Do this in the horizontal plane and vertical. If a reflection lands near your mix position then angle the section of wall/ceiling to direct it away.

Once you have a RFZ sorted out come back with what you have and your ideas for what you will do with the sound once it's passed the mix position, and you can get specific advice.

Dan

Waka wrote:Hi SunkenCity,

I can see you and Stuart seem to have gotten caught up in some kind of misunderstanding/grievance whether intentional or not, but should we get back to the point?

Span tables for timber joists generally don't go down lower than 400mm (16inch) spacing, so unless you will get a structural engineer to calculate it for you, you will need to stick to span tables. My trada span table sats that 47mm x 120mm (5 × 2) joists will support with a clear span of 2.63m (8 foot 8 inches) providing there is only 0.25N of weight on it (would need quite light ceiling treatments). Although you mention you're going inside out, so joist depth makes no difference right?
If you're doing inside out walls you won't need to go with log cabin style stacked walls either, which would save money and time. Just do a simple 4x2 frame covered with gypsum with 6x2 joists for your ceiling and be safe.

With regards to the control room height, I would recommend going tall as you don't have much width. If you just start with the max height you have after your ceiling joists and mass, you have the height up there probably for some nice ceiling diffusers.

If you're going for a RFZ as Greg says, start by putting your speakers in place on Sketchup and drawing some rays shooting forward from them and draw another ray for the reflection off the first surface it hits. Draw a new ray for each 5 degree off axis, up to 35 degree off axis for the mid/high frequencies. Do this in the horizontal plane and vertical. If a reflection lands near your mix position then angle the section of wall/ceiling to direct it away.

Once you have a RFZ sorted out come back with what you have and your ideas for what you will do with the sound once it's passed the mix position, and you can get specific advice.

Dan

Hey Dan That sounds like a good idea.

I've given up on the crazy loft idea it just eats up too much space for the control room.

Moving forward with a more standard design, two rooms(inner leafs) inside the main room(outer leaf) with a small sound lock.
Messing with the ratio on amroc the best I can do with the space I would like to use is around 11' H x 9' W x 13' L

I would like to get the length closer to 12 tho but looks like that isn't in the cards ratio wise.

I'll sketch that up thanks! Should the rays be coming from the tweeters? woofer? midrange driver? Should I do each of those separately?

I've got a pair of RSL 3300 and Yamaha NS-4's I would like to use.

I've given up on the crazy loft idea it just eats up too much space for the control room.

Moving forward with a more standard design, two rooms(inner leafs) inside the main room(outer leaf) with a small sound lock.

I'll sketch that up thanks! Should the rays be coming from the tweeters? woofer? midrange driver? Should I do each of those separately?

I've got a pair of RSL 3300 and Yamaha NS-4's I would like to use.

Pick which one you'd like to soffit mount. Look online for, or contact the manufacturer to find the acoustic axis. It is typically between the woofer and tweeter for 2 way speakers. But, I've also seen some that state it being on the inside edge of the woofer surround. If you check the polar patterns for the speakers, you'll find out how wide they throw vertically and horizontally, even. With all of this information, you can find your sweet spot for mix position.

Also, regarding ray tracing, it is a good idea to trace up to 60 degrees for low frequencies (even though in reality, they throw pretty much omni in those low cycles). Refraction will play a factor through insulation on clouds if you'd like to dig into it that deep! But for ease of tracing, you could just trace the low frequencies to your hard backing on your cloud.

Greg

the RSL 3300 would be the ones to soffit mount they are bigger passive monitors I guess they were made to compete with JBL 4311. Not sure if I can get that info from the manufacturer they sold the company a long time ago and still make stuff but dont support older equipment.

Here's the available specs from a brochure:

Are you sure you'd like to build your entire room around speakers that cannot be repaired?

Greg

Gregwor wrote:Are you sure you'd like to build your entire room around speakers that cannot be repaired?

Greg

Yeah It would suck to soffit mount them and then have problems with them down the road but they seem to pop up every once in a while for pretty cheap for donor parts.

How specific do the speakers have to be to the room if not soffit mounted? Or do you have to build the room to the speakers?

How specific do the speakers have to be to the room if not soffit mounted?

You really could use any speakers that you like. Some speakers effectively reproduce sub frequencies, others don't and would require a sub woofer to fill out the sub frequencies. It's good to have speakers that have a nice wide dispersion as it will provide you with a larger sweet spot. 3 way speakers typically provide a larger dispersion than 2 way speakers. Passive, front ported speakers are the easiest to soffit mount. But active, rear ported are possible to soffit mount as well. Basically, you can't have speakers like the Barefoots (except the MM45) due to them having speakers on their sides.

Or do you have to build the room to the speakers?

Yes, you do have to build your room to the speakers. You could swap out speakers later, but you have to ensure that your soffit framing will allow you to easily do so in the future, otherwise it could turn into a big big job. Basically, you will want the acoustic axis of your speakers to be at the correct spot. Replacing the speakers themselves would require you to have the new speakers acoustic axis at the exact spot as the previous set.

Greg

I'd like to use what I have at the moment and upgrade later if needed.

Is it possible to construct the soffits so they can be taken apart and reworked easily for possible future monitor replacement?

I put them at 30 degree angles intersecting 16" behind the 38 percent mark. The tweeters are a bit higher than wear your ears would be but I thought I should raise em up higher so the console interferes as little as possible with the woofers. the tweeters are below the middle of the room height.

Is it possible to construct the soffits so they can be taken apart and reworked easily for possible future monitor replacement?

For sure! If you look at my personal thread "house built around a studio" in the design forum you'll see how I'm going about that myself! Basically just make a baffle that you can modify for new speakers. And a shelf design that you can slide a new speaker mounting module onto. Easier said than done, but maybe my design will give you some ideas. Everyone does it differently! You'll see that soffit design is pretty crazy, but awesome.

I put them at 30 degree angles intersecting 16" behind the 38 percent mark.

The biggest problem I see with your current design is how wide your speakers are. Here's some guidelines to help you resolve that:

- place your speakers somewhere between 28 and 34% of the wall width. The wider the better.
- place the acoustic axis at ear height. Typically this is right around 1.2m
- your speaker angle can be between 25 and 35 degrees
- place a divider below the speaker that your speaker will be sitting on
- below this divider, you can place hangers. These will work awesome for bass trapping and allow air to flow up through them, behind the speaker and out through the top of your soffit assembly by means of convection.
- place a divider above the speaker. This will be a great spot for more hangers or a bunch of your left over insulation... super chunk style. Typically, it's a great idea to use some chicken wire to form a path for your air flow through the insulation.
- leave a gap (let's say 6" or 1') at the floor of your soffit wall for air to get into. But, above this gap, in front of your lower hangers, build a hard backed absorber panel. You can find this in John's recording manual. It will deal with any reflections off the back side of your desk.
- your speaker should not be dead center (horizontally) on your soffit baffle. The difference between the left and right spacing should be at least 20%. A 2 to 5 ratio is cool. Vertically, having your speaker live at the 1/4 height mark is also cool if possible!
- fill all around your speaker module with insulation. Another good place for insulation scraps.
- over build your soffit frame. AKA use a lot of wood. This has to be a really heavy and sturdy structure.
- the bottom of the structure (where the absorber and hangers are) will be covered with fabric.
- the face of your structure has to have extreme weight. The problem is, you can't just use 12" of heavy wood because the front edge of your speaker has to be parallel with the face. Your speaker also cannot touch this baffle material (leave a 1/16th or so gap around it and fill it with insulation, or something that will semi-seal it but de-couple it). So, basically, your speaker has to "hang" off of your speaker module through the hole in your baffle. A good idea is to use a thick piece of MDF, something thin like MLV or steel, then a thick and beautiful hardwood or MDF with a laminate front. The MVL or steel will add a lot of mass without being too thick!
- your front baffle should be at least 3 times the diameter of your speakers woofer.
- for rear ported speakers, do not overload the rear port, acoustically, with an enclosure box that's too small, un-ventilated, or un-damped. Stuff the heck out of it with insulation (except the cooling path).

The tweeters are a bit higher than wear your ears would be but I thought I should raise em up higher so the console interferes as little as possible with the woofers. the tweeters are below the middle of the room height.

The console reflections are dealt with by the absorber on the bottom of your soffit wall. If you're still concerned about the woofers being too low, flip your speakers up side down! Also, the tweeter isn't your acoustic axis. My guess is if you drew a line from the bottom of your mid driver to the bottom of the tweeter and put an X halfway between those drivers, that would be your acoustic axis. So, to re-phrase that, it'd be between your mid driver and tweeter, but down closer towards your woofer.

Greg

Alot of stuff to think about I think going to table the internal acoustical design for the moment and focus on the structure of the control room.

So brainstorming building the control room inside out with smaller modules to make them easier and less scary to raise into place. one layer of 1/2 OSB, two layers of 5/8's drywall at Greg's suggestion while discussing his msm excel chart.

was thinking something like this.
two of these would comprise the most inner corner of the control room

SunkenCity wrote:Alot of stuff to think about I think going to table the internal acoustical design for the moment and focus on the structure of the control room.

So brainstorming building the control room inside out with smaller modules to make them easier and less scary to raise into place. one layer of 1/2 OSB, two layers of 5/8's drywall at Greg's suggestion while discussing his msm excel chart.

was thinking something like this.

Fullscreen capture 9132018 64844 PM.bmp.jpg

Fullscreen capture 9132018 65057 PM.bmp.jpg

Fullscreen capture 9132018 65203 PM.bmp.jpg

two of these would comprise the most inner corner of the control room

That module looks good, but you may need noggins (horizontal studs between the uprights) as the modules are very tall to improve racking strength and stop them twisting, have a word with your building control office.

The down side of building the wall in small modules, is that you have a single vertical joint seal between the modules across all three layers which is more likely to fail than overlapped joonts. If you have some friends who can help you out over a weekend or something, build them on the floor in entire walls with overlapped seams and lift them into place as they are (you may need 5 or 6 burley Canadians like greg had though!)

The down side of building the wall in small modules, is that you have a single vertical joint seal between the modules across all three layers which is more likely to fail than overlapped joonts.

True. And you also don't have a continuous top plate and sole plate, which are usually required by code, and won't pass inspection if you don't have them.

- Stuart -

The down side of building the wall in small modules, is that you have a single vertical joint seal between the modules across all three layers which is more likely to fail than overlapped joonts.

Agreed, but with a lot of attention to the sealant, this risk could be minimized. The same precision should be applied to all sealing. Specifically, the ceiling inside out modules share this same risk.

you may need 5 or 6 burley Canadians like greg had though!

Friggin reet on, eh! Nothin like havin da boys over fer a rip, eh bud!?

True. And you also don't have a continuous top plate and sole plate, which are usually required by code, and won't pass inspection if you don't have them.

Maybe the solution to this would be to build the sections with one top plate, then once the modules are all mounted together, install a long second top plate that also has a rim board attached to it.

Greg

Gregwor wrote: Maybe the solution to this would be to build the sections with one top plate, then once the modules are all mounted together, install a long second top plate that also has a rim board attached to it.

Greg

This is how I built my walls. Sole plate fixed to the concrete in place. Walls built in 2.4m (8ft) width sections lifted on top of and nailed to the soleplate and then a header plate nailed across the top overlapping the joints. This was my external wall though so I could fix the sheathing to the outside after framing.