NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advice

[richroyc]

Stuart - THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!! no need to apologize EVER! you have helped me IMMENSELY even if this whole site was to vanish overnight I would still appreciate what I have gotten thus far.

This was a really great response. One of these days I will figure out a way to repay you for all this amazing help and advice.

I guess I was doing something wrong with the formula - looks like I have some more research to do.

I'll be back once I run into the next set of problems and questions and also to post progress photos. (Steel beam is STILL not installed yet )

- Mike

[richroyc]

MAJOR CONSTRUCTION UPDATE!!!!

THE STEEL BEAM IS FINALLY INSTALLED!!!!!!!!!

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Next I have to install the Teco's to tie in the floor joists and then I can finally remove the temp walls - and then do a few laps around the basement in celebration of the open floor!!

Then I can start with the "beef-up"

I am still not living in the house yet - many other things need to be done to the upper floors before I can actually move in. I did run a cable for the security cameras down to the basement so I can monitor the cameras from the studio. Also I need to add an electronic door opener so I can "buzz" people in without having to go upstairs to let clients in.



I am STILL struggling with the MSM formula. I AM doing the math wrong but I can figure out where. I'm going to post my math here so hopefully someone can help me out.
I am using Stuarts abridged version of the formula:

Fmsm = 53[M1 + M2]^.5 / [M1 x M2 x D]^.5

For M1 + M2 I am using 2-layers of 5/8" gypsum - plugging in a surface density of 22.58kg/m^2 for each "M" or layer.

For "D" - I am using .229 Meters (equal to 9 inches)

The "53" I found alternate numbers to use in this spot - One post suggested using "75" - another said "43" - I think Stuart said "53" could be used.

I know the result of the formula should get me around 11Hz-15Hz range....so what am I doing wrong?

53 [22.58 + 22.58]^.5 / [22.58 x 22.58 x .229]^.5

53 [45.16]^.5 / [116.76]^.5

53[6.72] / [10.80]

356.16 / 10.80 = 32.9Hz

?!?!?!?! PLEASE HELP

[Soundman2020]

THE STEEL BEAM IS FINALLY INSTALLED!!!!!!!!!

Oh no! It's the wrong color! You should have painted it lime green! Or maybe hot pink.... on second thoughts, canary yellow... no no, wait ... fire-engine red! Yup, that's it...



Seriously, congrats on getting that in! That's a big job out the way. Thank heavens Steven Segal was able to tilt your house over again, so it is upright again!

I'm just wondering about those floor joists that were cut, though: I would have thought that those need to be attached to the beam itself, maybe with joist hangers? It seems very strange that they are just floating out in the air, unsupported... Did you structural engineer say anything about that? Or was that photo taken before that type of finishing was completed?

Next I have to install the Teco's to tie in the floor joists

Ahhh ! OK, ignore the above question... I should read more before I write...

and then do a few laps around the basement in celebration of the open floor!!

Photos! Or it didn't happen! The only way we'll believe that, is with solid evidence...

I AM doing the math wrong ... = 32.9Hz

Looks about right to me!

The "53" I found alternate numbers to use in this spot - One post suggested using "75" - another said "43" - I think Stuart said "53" could be used.

63 is about right for an empty cavity, "43" is about right if the cavity is completely filled with excellent insulation, 53 or so is a good approximation for a partially filled cavity, or less than optimum isolation.

Figuring it all ways, I get:

Constant of 63: aprox. 39 Hz
Constant of 53: aprox. 33 Hz
Constant of 43: aprox. 27 Hz

It looks like your math is fine.... why did you think it was wrong?

I know the result of the formula should get me around 11Hz-15Hz range

Why do you think that? You'd need much more mass on your leaves, and a larger air gap, to get such a low MSM resonance. Three layers of drywall on each side of a 20" gap filled with insulation would get you to about 14 Hz.... but why do you need to get such a low frequency? Are you planning to record church organs in there? Canon fire? Earthquakes? Freight trains? Whales mating?


- Stuart -

[richroyc]

Stuart - thanks for the reply.

OH NO THE WRONG COLOR!!!!! I'm tearing it all down today!

Steven Segal didn't actually flip the house - he squeezed a bunch of matter together with his bare hands to create a new point of gravity which made things go back to normal....

Here's why I thought it should be lower:

Are you SURE you are using it correctly? Two layers of 5/8" drywall on each side of a ten inch air gap should be giving you F0=10.87 Hz, isolation starts at 22 Hz and good isolation above 32 Hz... With damping, that becomes 8 Hz, 16Hz and 23 Hz... And that's just for drywall! With concrete for one leaf, you should be able to do even better...

That a quote from you! haha

I calculated with a 9" air gap but the extra 1" shouldn't bring me down that low???

And I do want to be able to isolate down to 30Hz since I will be producing that frequency with the subwoofers.

[Soundman2020]

That a quote from you! haha

OK, so now I'm REALLY wondering what numbers I put into the calculation when I came up with THAT answer! No excuses here: I must have been rather careless, and typed in something pretty unusual without checking....

- Stuart -

[richroyc]

Hello All!!! I have returned

I am actually starting the studio build very soon!!!!

So far, I have removed the (2) structural columns that were in the middle of the basement and put in a steel beam!!! It was a pretty big job. I realized I have not posted pictures of that job finished so I will update with photos later on. Tons of floor space!

I am posting now because I am planning on starting the ceiling beef-up this weekend and just want to make sure I do it RIGHT.

I pretty sure I have the details correct, but here's a detail of exactly what I plan on doing so hopefully you guys can point out anything that looks wrong before it goes in.

CEILING BEEF UP DETAIL.jpg

[richroyc]

Photo update of the existing ceiling "beef-up" in progress:

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[Soundman2020]

It's looking great! Progress! I love studio build progress....

- Stuart -

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[richroyc]

Hey it's me!
after much time i am back at it again.

i haven't been on here much but i have been making progress towards the studio build.

mostly all these permits and paperwork which took almost a year.
i think the design is pretty much where i had it last i posted last one here maybe a few small tweaks here and there.

construction is about to start. so im sure ill be on here alot more frequently.

anyway as i'm fine tuning the design i had a general question about the MSM formula:

all things equal, more air space between leaves gives better isolation.
when we calculate we use the air space (8" for example) and the formula assumes that condition is uniform throughout the whole construction. However, in reality some of the spaces between the 2 leaves are slightly larger or smaller than 8" depending on conditions.

the way i understand it the sealed air in the gap or cavity is what acts as the "spring" for sound isolation.
larger sealed cavity = better isolation.
the question i have is - does that gap need to be uniform? if one could simply make the sealed cavity larger, in any direction, would that not increase overall sound isolation?

if so one could make a sort of chimney or some other skinny extension of the sealed cavity and greatly increase isolation?

see the attached photo.

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the reason i ask this question is because i have the opportunity to make the outer leaf wall break away from the inner leaf wall where a large section would have a larger air gap.

would this HELP or is it better to keep the gap UNIFORM? (8" spacing between the inner and outer leaf)?

[richroyc]

Quick question regarding moisture getting inside sealed cavity through the slab.

Im building on a basement slab and using treated lumber for bottom sill plate of the walls as required by code.

Although not required by code here, I see some recommendations to use an additional moisture barrier (like 6 mil poly sheathing) between the slab and the bottom sill.

Is this recommended? and if so - should I lay the plastic all the way across the gap between my 2 wall leaves? The air gap is 8" but between the 2 sill plates is only 1".

Basic question is, do I need to seal the bottom of the cavity from moisture?

Is there another method to so this? After the wall framing is installed there would be that small 1" gap that would be fairly easy to
"paint" some type of moisture barrier in there.

(it should be noted that the basement is extremely dry, there are no detectable moisture issues currently)

[richroyc]

Update - My studio was delivered today!!!!

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Its from IKEA, the UNGTRAADD model.....now I just need to assemble it.

I don't see the assembly instructions though

guess I'm gonna hafta wing it. haha

but seriously the time has finally come and i'm starting to build!!!

also I added some photos of the completed ceiling beef up and the new steel beam fully installed. one of the joist hangers had to be custom made to fit the tripled up joists.

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Hopefully with everyone's help I can catch mistakes before they are made.

Also, included the latest sketchup photo of the design, not too much has changed.

BASEMENT STUDIO - 1-24-18 (new idea).jpg

[Gregwor]

Exciting!

What are you doing for HVAC in your live room?
What did you end up doing about your cloud and the inner leaf duct work?
What registers are you using?
What foam did you end up buying?

I don't have an official answer regarding your chimney type MSM space, but I figure the air cavity volume doesn't matter. I believe the distance is what really matters.

Also, to save you doing a bunch of math, I made this a few days ago because I too was wondering how different parameters affected isolation at different frequencies:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=21373

Greg

[richroyc]

Hey Gregwor! Thanks for the reply.

For my Live Room HVAC I'm doing silencer boxes similar to control room. They are about half as large.

Heres a pic of little HVAC nook I've created under the stairs, you can see the 2 silencer boxes here.

HVAC UNDER STAIRS.jpg

Heres a pic of the overall basic HVAC routing. There are no silencer boxes on the inside - once inside the control room (and live room) the duct will make several turn and also be soffited. Essentially just a spread out silencer box.

BASIC DUCT ROUTING.jpg

It definitely took a lot of work select the right air handler and to figure out all of my duct sizes and reduce them wherever possible. The duct outside the treated areas have much higher FPM (approx. 600) but once they hit the silencer boxes they go down to 300 FPM. At the end of the job I plan on using this handy little tool i have called a "vane anemometer". its basically a little hand held fan blade that spins when you hold it front of an air outlet or inlet. It reads FPM and you can calculate CFM based on outlet size. Essential I'll use this to balance out the cfm's to each room via volume dampers that ill locate near the hvac unit.

I actually having the duct fabricated based of drawings I made in AutoCAD MEP they have drag and drop fittings and it will calculate the overall system friction and static and everything.

I'll post those drawing later they are on my work computer.

Register I'll probably use either Nailor, Titus or Anemostat as I have a relationship with rep's for all those vendors because of my day job.

The foam (I'm assuming you mean for the 'beef up')? - I just used regular old closed cell styrofoam (Stuart's recommendation). They had it at home depot in boards i think 3/4" thick and they were precut around 14 - 1/2" wide so they fit perfectly in between the joists.

The cloud is still being designed but its main purpose will be to conceal the overhead ducts, hold lights, and to be pretty with some cool backlighting. I don't have too much headroom so it's going to be fairly small/thin.

Thanks for that link by the way!

[richroyc]

Does anyone have any advise for moisture barrier on slab INSIDE the sealed cavity

Since I'm putting 6 mil poly under the laminate flooring anyway, should just I do the same for the sealed cavity and under the wall baseplates?