John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

gullfo wrote:muslin is usable, quite a number of wool/yarn type fabrics. i think Bob Golds site may have a list of fabrics on it with approximate (or accurate) flow resistivity etc.

the velcro could be an option but the fiberglass/mineral wool fibers could be a problem in the wash unless the insulation is wrapped in a very fine plastic cover to keep them enclosed. of course there are recycled cotton and hemp insulation which does not have the fiber concerns but costs are typically higher.

OK ... the 'muslin' looks like a nicer material [I need to hit JoAnn's to get a better look].

I'm searching around town to see if anyone does the dye-sub work.

I'm also looking through Bob Gold's site [if I have the right one]
http://www.bobgolds.com/

Haven't found mention of other fabric names other than speaker cloth.

I understand the 'breathable fabric' concept ... just not up on the terminology [also I get some funny looks from the JoAnn patrons [like what are YOU doing here]

Anyway ... thanks again for the very helpful info/research. I'd like to do it right the first time when possible

As I eagerly await hearing back from Stuart ... I've been keeping busy reading through all those PDF files that were provided ... and ... calling around regarding dye-sublimation printing, and checking out various fabrics. To me, this would add a style and look that I'm seeking. A room that you never want to leave, can work for hours on end ... relaxed, elegant, classy. Lighting will help too !

Although I'm not certain what Stuart has planned, I've been tracking down supplier for 'Green Glue', and looking at the various 'isolation channel' mounts.

Not to be forgotten, since this IS a basement mastering room ... there is a sump pump, and unfortunately the power does go out ... so, I've started pricing a natural-gas automatic electric back-up unit.

Since this room will be closed off from any natural ventilation ... the search is on for something like a 'duck-less' AC/Heat unit. Since the house we are in has hot water heating, there is no AC units in the house [other than a couple of portables]. The Mitsubishi unit has a quad-zone available. A single compressor outside, and 4 modules that can be run independently. Although we don't usually get more than a few weeks of hot summer ... one can ALWAYS hope for global warming . Anyway ... looking for a way to improve things for the whole household.

Tonite I also committed to doing the final riveting of the top & bottom acoustic panels. I must say, humbly' that they came out really well. I'm am very pleased how sturdy the cage became. They feel very solid, and can be moved about without concern. Of course I did this ... and had to throw a few tunes on with the Ole jam box. It's funny, but it was sounding pretty good ... even though the panels are just leaning up against the wall.

I can't wait to get started building this new room ... right now I feel homeless

Well ... got an early one coming up ... plummer is in for the morning to finally yank that nasty drain pipe out and go PVC. Also have two water heating lines that we are going to re-route to help clear up the last thing hanging down from the joist level, this'll keep the ceiling area clear for what's to come.

The only sad thing is that I've had to cancel [maybe a postponement] a couple mastering projects that called in. But I have to say, I've also received calls from old clients and musician friends expressing their happiness and enthusiasm for what I'm trying to do. That help lift the spirits

Anyways ... thanks for listening to my ramblings ... and still taking pity to help me out!!

you'll need more than just AC, you'll need fresh air. check out concealed duct units where the blower can sit outside your room and you can readily add a fresh air exchange into the system. here's some products: http://us.sanyo.com/HVAC-ECO-I-VRF-Systems-Indoor-Units

gullfo wrote:you'll need more than just AC, you'll need fresh air. check out concealed duct units where the blower can sit outside your room and you can readily add a fresh air exchange into the system. here's some products: http://us.sanyo.com/HVAC-ECO-I-VRF-Systems-Indoor-Units

Thanks Glenn ! This is very helpful.

Of course, all I can do is look until I know more about how the room will be designed and what type of unit I'll need to install. But it is definitely good to have options to look at !

hopefully i'm not too late to chime in... indent the room identically on each side in the back to accommodate the sump and to keep things symmetrical. just use isolation mounts, hat channel, and multiple layers of drywall and/or green glue for the ceiling to keep the maximum height (which seems to be only around 7ft). beef up the upper floor to seal it and add mass. if you block in from the floor joists when placing the isolator, you can get the new suspended ceiling to sit about an inch below the floor joists. note: dimensions shown are room interior dimensions which assume 2x 5/8in gwb over 2x4 frame with 2in gap between existing walls and new interior isolation walls. the walls can be supported using WIC (Mason Industries) or PAC international isolation mounts. rest of the usual suspects apply: caulk, staggering seams, rubber strip and isolators to decouple walls from floor, etc etc. to finish the floor, start with concrete polishing and staining to keep maximum room height. otherwise use a thin flooring over the concrete as desired.

Hi Glenn,

Just had a quick view ... and before I even ask a question ... can I say ...

WOOOOooooowwww !

Let me take just a little time to absorb what you've created.

I would like to transfer the basics of your drawing into SketchUP, this way, me and
my contractor [my younger brother] can view this.

Before I say more ... let me study this beauty!

Sincerely,
RJHollins

thanks! here's the raw SU - not much there but it might help to see the framing bits.

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the SU file ... ooowww I get to use my v8

beef up the upper floor to seal it and add mass.

Ahh, the big dilemma ... what's inside those joist, and the floor above.

There is a REAL hardwood floor above ... I don't know what kind of nails were used, but there are hundreds [if not thousands] of nails poking through to the underside. [and thats' just in the section above this new control room area].

I've attached a photo showing just a small segment to which I'm speaking of.

I'm not at all certain how I can deal or work this. There are also cross supports in every joist straight down the center of 'this' half of the basement. So there are sections that I would not be able to get at.

I understand there is no substitute for mass ... but I really don't see how I can solve this [without ripping the whole thing down ... which would then give me a 16' ceiling. Ya know ... kinda like the sound of that !!! but reality and practicality should have some place in all this.

How to best deal with this [and several other issues] !!!

in that case use a rigid foam (like blueboard, denser if you can find one) insulation over the nails and then add your mass layers.

gullfo wrote:in that case use a rigid foam (like blueboard, denser if you can find one) insulation over the nails and then add your mass layers.

ok ... mentioned this procedure to the contractor.

First ... it was the proverbial ... "deer in the headlights" gaze ....
then followed the room, bursting into laughter.
I took all the personal, slanderous 'you're crazy ... outa you're mind, comments in stride

I think the dual layers of drywall is what brought them the most entertainment.

So ... because I would never make it as a comedian ... I really need a concise plan of attack and, importantly, the materials and strategy to install.

Big question ... which I probably know the answer to [after reading many of the experts' comments from other threads/builds ... is this: There are areas in the joist that may prove impossible to get to, or secure material into. I can see getting some type of 1" rigid foam material [much like you see for metal frame building insulation] that I can force into place and let the tight fit hold them in place. [if that is what you suggested ?]

Now for the dual-layers of drywall ... what type of fit tolerance must we have??? [if that make sense]. Attaching the drywall in there is another question. I'd rather not speculate on this, and hope that my questions would be view in sincerity.

Let me pause here so that expert comments can come in.

Thank-you very much

RJHollins

basically the insulation you wedge in tight, the drywall is held in place using 1x2 ledger strips - you can use a few screws to hold in place while those go in. then caulk thoroughly to seal - tolerances are covered by caulking... you guy may have to remove blocking and re-add as they go. you only need to do this over your room and when you add the fire stops, that will take care of the end-to-end coverage.

this adds the needed mass to the ceiling above which when combined with the isolated drywall for your new ceiling will result in very good isolation between the upstairs and your mastering studio. yes, it's not something your contractor is used to but it does work.

if you have not yet purchased Rod Gervais' "Build Like The Pros" book (2nd edition came out today - Amazon says my copy will arrive tomorrow...) then you need to buy it since it contains all the gory details needed including fire stops, this mass addition trick, sealing / building doors, windows, and many many more. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/143545717X/ if you need it sooner, Barnes & Noble etc should also carry it as well as Target, and many other stores.

gullfo wrote: if you have not yet purchased Rod Gervais' "Build Like The Pros" book (2nd edition came out today - Amazon says my copy will arrive tomorrow...) then you need to buy it since it contains all the gory details needed including fire stops, this mass addition trick, sealing / building doors, windows, and many many more. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/143545717X/ if you need it sooner, Barnes & Noble etc should also carry it as well as Target, and many other stores.

I do have the book. I didn't know there is a new edition coming out. How 'out-of-date' would my copy be ?

for what we've discussed so far, it would be fine. Rod has a detailed section on adding mass to the floor and the fire stops so those are pretty relevant for your contractor.

gullfo wrote:for what we've discussed so far, it would be fine. Rod has a detailed section on adding mass to the floor and the fire stops so those are pretty relevant for your contractor.

Thanks again Glenn,

I'm looking at the diagram in Rod's book [p. 67]. Makes sense, and I have a better understanding on how to do this.

Rod doesn't seem to mention the thickness of the drywall to add [or I've missed that]. I'm guessing it would be 2 layers of 5/8" drywall ?

The ONLY specific questioned I'd have is with regards to the additional LOAD, and what would be acceptable. In the area of concern, I have 13 joist, 2x9" douglas fir. Down the middle of the room are the cross braces 1-1/2"x1-1/2". These joist rest on the outer wall sill on one side, and on the center load bearing beam, in the middle of the basement, on the other. The LBB consist of 4 - 2x7" df nailed together, and two 3" metal support poles. The age of the house is ~50 years. I have no idea where that puts us? I'm guessing I'd need the advice of a structural engineer ?

Anyway ... I'm really liking the design you sent me. I guess that Stuart must be busy on something else [which I can understand]. This is fine ... and you have been most extremely helpful ... and if you can, I'd like to pursue the path you've laid out.

If I may, I would like to ask about certain things in the design. Not to get to far ahead of myself ... one design question is about the wall structure. The initial design from Stuart was a 3 leaf wall. I would very much welcome your views on this. To be clear, the basement is located in, what is called, a split-level ranch. Five steps up the stairs is a family room that I would like to keep this control room design isolated from, as well as the upstairs living room.

Anyway ... just to again express my sincere appreciation for your insights and guidance.

to add ... the plumbers finally showed up and changed out that drain pipe, and also re-routed some of the hot water heating pipes to clear up the new ceiling lines.

These guys also do electrical ... and are pricing me a natural gas automatic backup electrical system, AND, they also do the ductless A/C heating installs. He mentioned a half dozen different manufactures, and got me the name of the wholesale distributor here in town. I should have specifics in the next few days

oh ... also got a number to a company in town that does dye-sub printing. I would like some artwork stretched across the acoustic panels.

Alright ... off to go sit-in a few tunes with a good jazz group tonite !!

you should definitely have a structural engineer look things over before adding the mass to your ceiling.