John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Pixs of recent activities ...

Getting the stack of 2" rigid in place, using 2"x2" brace With the full stack in. I added a small brace at the top of the stack to make sure it stayed put.

I needed a temporary speaker stand, so I went with a design someone [Glenn?] posted. For the time being, I set up a pair of old ALTEC studio monitors. The speakers are flush to the face of the blocks.
Not shown, but I had to add a 2x6 under the monitor to get the height at a better distance.
I'm going to be auditioning new monitors for this room. In storage I have my NS-10m and Auratones.

Have some questions to ask on electrical, HVAC, and clouds.

Next bit of construction will be the ceiling 'clouds'. This SketchUP render is from the original design by GLENN.
If there are no changes to the cloud design, I'd like to start getting [at lease the desk area]
put together.

As a reminder, the floor to ceiling height is 82" , there will have to be minimal traffic
in this front area [obviously], especially for us 6'-2" 'ers.

I need a reminder as to materials needed. I understand that these are to have a solid
backing on these panels. What would be best to use ? Also, is 4" rigid fiberglass good ??
To hang these, I'm thinking of using something like 'butterfly' bolts with an eyelet end. Then
with S-hooks and chain to suspend these. Concern is whether these would be too prone
to swaying ??? or maybe I should consider using a long, threaded bolt instead of a chain ?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!

the eye hooks and rope would work. i'd go with the hard backing - 3/4" ply with 3/4" MDF with 4" rigid insulation in front covered with cloth.

gullfo wrote:the eye hooks and rope would work. I'd go with the hard backing - 3/4" ply with 3/4" MDF with 4" rigid insulation in front covered with cloth.

Thanks Glenn !!!

If I recall ... you wanted the very front clouds to angle down 12*

Do ALL the clouds get solid backs on them ?

As for the other clouds ... what is the minimum distant OFF the ceiling should they hang from?
The issue with an 82" ceiling height is what I have .... but I still need them to be effective
[as I'm sure you understand].

The cloud, directly above the desk ... should it be 'flat' or angled ? how far off the ceiling?

Positioning question: What is the best way to determine WHERE the clouds are to go, and
the spacing. Should I just measure off the floor plan you did, or would the 'boundary calc'
be used, or the mirror technique ?

Reason I ask is that it would be very difficult to temporarily try to test the right spots

Thanks for any details/clarification you could supply !!!

Sincerely.

the front clouds should have the solid backs. then angle the front one steepest and the one over the desk flatter. hang the front one down so the leading edge is ~16" above your monitors and the other one say, 6" from the ceiling. the other ones - hang down 4" if possible.

Ok Glenn,

I know what you are describing is probably very simple ... but MY simple brain is not
grasping this

To help clarify ...

In your original design, you called for 8 clouds.

Do ALL 8 clouds get the solid [MDF/Plywood] backing ??? or is it only the 3 clouds
at the front of the room that get the solid backs ?

At this point, I'm just getting my shopping list together for the materials to pick up

step one. THANKS!!!

****** addition ******

I ran a new REW scan of the room.
This run now has the Chunky Corner traps in place. I ALSO placed 9 broadband absorbers
around the room. At this point, I only have them sitting on the floor, leaning up against
the walls. From the design, I have them placed approx where they go along the wall [EXCEPT
for the door area].

The scan is from the [rough] mix position.

The first 2 runs [L & R] are of my original ALTEC M1 monitors [old, vintage]

The 2nd run are L & R from my NS10's that I pulled from storage.

I WILL be getting a new pair of monitors for this new room ... considering everything from
OPALS, to FOCALS, to BareFoots, etc.

Anyway ... been reading through GLENN's posting on clouds [trying to learn about them]. I
notice that the designs can be quite different [according to room needs] ... so I thought I
should post a new REW scan.

I would like to, then, ask more specifics on the cloud design for my room.

Here's the REW file ... and, again, THANK-YOU for your guidance
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/295408 ... _floo.mdat

Please ... anything I should do to get you the best data scans ... please inform me!

the front 3 get the backing. the rest can just be absorption only. you can see in the readings, deep nulls @ 83, 117, and 179 (probably H,W, L) with 83 and 117 being the main concerns. so the clouds will help as would some deeper (VPR?) absorbers on the sides. the null above 200 is the 2nd order mode from the width. once the 117 is tamed, the other will also be fixed. overall, the side to side (with rough placement) is fairly even.

Thanks for the analysis Glenn !

I understand we are early in the treatment, with some of the material just temporarily
placed on the floor around the room ... hopefully improvements to follow !

Todays progress report.

Did the Home Depot run for the 3 'hard back' clouds.
I grabbed 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood AND 3/4" MDF. Had them precut to 2'x4' panels.
Also grabbed some Liquid Nails, 1-1/4" coarse drywall screws, and some aluminum plaster
corner beading.

Table set for 'hard backed' clouds. Applied QuickGrab glue Clamped sheets together. Screwed them together. Currently have them all stacked and clamped on top of each other for drying.

The plan is to assemble cages to mount onto these sandwiched panels using the same
aluminum corner beads that I used on the wall broadband absorbers. The only difference
would be that the cage would be open on the inside. The 'depth' bead would be fastened
to the MDF/Plywood at the corners. OK?

The thinking is to keep exposed the maximum surface area of the 2 layers of 2" rigid
fiberglass. Is this a GOOD idea

CONCERN !!!! I've NOT weight these glued panels, but these DEFINITELY have some girth
to them .... at least 50 lbs each .... if not more! When I add the insulation, that should be
about another 18 lbs added

1st question ... [cause I cannot find that cool diagram you posted for another builder] WHAT
should the layer order be ??? From the ceiling down ... is it plywood, MDF, then insulation?

2nd BIG question ... because of the weight.

Thinking .... 4 'eye-bolts' [with washers] through the sandwich panels ... at LEAST 1/4"
bolts ???

Then ... for the ceiling mount. Again, thinking of 'eye-bolts' into the drywall ceiling ... BUT
Should I consider using something like 'butterfly' ends on the eye-bolts ???? This would
mean FULL PENETRATION into the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall Again, is 1/4" bolts
strong enough??? Is this the way I should go ???

Following up, I considering using heavy-duty chain [with S-hooks] to attach the clouds at
4 corner points.

As always .... thank you for your insights on the best way to do this!

Once the mounting issue is set ... I then would like to verify the placement detail BEFORE
I start putting holes in the ceiling

Thanks again!
Sincerely

.... some build 'castle in the sky' ...... me just working on clouds

With the hard-backed panels glued & screwed, I started putting together the 'holding'
cage for the 4" of rigid insulation. I'm trying out the idea of using the same technique
as the broadband absorbers.

So far: Seems like this will work. Once I get the rigid placed, I can screw the cage to the panels.
Still NOT sure WHAT should face the ceiling ! Plywood or MDF. My HOPE is that the
PLywood would face the ceiling, so as to make attaching the fabric [possible] easier ???!?

The issue of hanging these bad boyz ...
Was at LOWE'S [again] ... and found this ... Seems an interesting design, because, getting that 'butterfly' to flip [with all the insulation
behind the ceiling] could be tricky. This 'pull-tab' seems more workable, rather than a spring
expanding out. I've never used these before ... so ???
The thought is to use 1/4" I-Bolts from into the ceiling & the panel, and S-Hooked chains.
Seems it would allow 'adjustments' at a later point [if needed].

Any thoughts/ critiques ... better way !!!
Thanks

plywood up - it faces the ceiling. also you can run some 1x3 to span the joists so you can be flexible in placement of the hooks and they have something solid to dig into instead of simply using drywall anchors. just paint the strips to match your ceiling color...

gullfo wrote:plywood up - it faces the ceiling. also you can run some 1x3 to span the joists so you can be flexible in placement of the hooks and they have something solid to dig into instead of simply using drywall anchors. just paint the strips to match your ceiling color...

Hi Glenn ! you're the only one who talks to me now THANK-YOU !!

Plywood WILL face the ceiling, as instructed

The use of 1x3's is very interesting ... this is something I was thinking about with regard
to the panels hanging on the walls, which is now confirmed by doing the clouds this way too.

Obviously, besides being able to [later] move a panel ... the BIG concern are putting ANY holes
in the walls/ceiling. It would [seem] that the 1x3 would help 'contain' the holes into the
drywall .... hmmm ?

SO ... trying to think of the best way to do this .... and I may have to draw this up to see
what I'm doing ... I'll get on that right away!

In a nutshell ... should I 'PRE-mount' the eye-bolts into the 1x3's , and THEN, attach the
1x3 to the ceiling [using the butterflies] ??? This would mean 3-4 holes COMPLETELY
through the ceiling drywall to hold the 1x3 ?

I've not weight these panels yet ... but they DO have some serious weight

As aside .... I'm not to crazy about using screw eye-bolts [particularly with anything over head.

.... gonna do a diagram.

Thanks!

OK ... trying to visualize the furring strip [mounts] for the ceiling clouds. Want to know
if this is the concept? If so ... NOT sure if I'd be tying the strips into the ceiling joist? [3" coarse drywall screws?]
OR would we still use the 'butterflies'

Could be tough locating those joist now that my marks are painted over

Still trying the understand the concept ... it seems that we would then use 'screw I-Bolts'
into the strip [and also into the ceiling drywall] - but NOT completely through, to hang
the clouds ????

help

oh ... another question, please ...

With regard to the wall panels and the HEIGHT they should be mounted at ?

My floor to ceiling is ~ 82". My broadband panels are 2'x4'x4" [to be suspended 4" off wall].

I'm trying to figure out a compromise height between sitting and standing. My TWEETER
height is 50" [and I may need to raise them another inch or so] ...
Basically ... do the absorbers need to be 'halfway' between floor/ceiling, or can they be
raised to work while standing [I'm 6'-2" = 74"]. If they can be raised ... what limits should
I observe ??

Again ... another THANK-YOU !

Howdy,

Are all your clouds gonna be hard-backed? I can't see different panels on your drawing. You only need a hard-backed absorber above you mix station to reflect sound backwards. the other clouds can be plain ol' absorbers, no need for heavy duty panels.

btw, love the way you created those metal frame panels. nice job!

Hi Ro !!!

The drawing doesn't show, but [correct], only the front 3 absorbers will have the hardback.

Which makes me wonder if I even need the furring strips on the 5 [soft] ones. They weight
in at about 18 lbs. The BIG concern are putting holes in the walls/ceiling

BTW ... been following your build thread ! Last I read the final layer went up on the ceiling.
Is that NOT a joy to be done with

the cages ... yeah, it's been interesting putting them together. They start out so flimsy [and
razor sharp] ... but when all the pieces got riveted, I was really surprised how durable they
are. As I get things ready to hang them, I find myself STILL trying to 'invent' a good hooking
design for them Soon the decision will have to be made. Right now they're just leaning
up against the walls. Together with the corner traps, I'm liking how the stereo [radio] is
starting to sound. Finally got an antenna up to pull in this Canadian & NPR jazz station. It
was nice to hear piano, drums and DOUBLE bass. And the treatment is not even
in place yet. Can't wait to start working the room ... still pulling together the AC & ventilation,
along with everything else. Glenn has been a godsend with ALL his help and guidance!
I'm thrilled & grateful beyond words.

Best wishes to you and family Ro !

thanx RJ

I've been playing around with the same idea of making steel frames for my absorbers. Will prolly use standard metalstuds experimenting is cool.

hanging those clouds can be a pain indeed. But adding a piece of wood on the ceiling first and hang ye cloud there is the way to go.