Len Morgan's Studio Build Diary

[laserpistol]

OK, I'm no expert on vapour barriers either but the moisture on the windows and door would appear to be condensation that may have nothing to do with other insulation in the building. You don't actually want an interior space with NO moisture, you just want to eliminate any condensation problem caused by inadequate insulation - on walls, roof and/or windows. I would investigate double or triple paned glass to deal with the moisture problem. This is assuming that the walls and ceiling are adequately insulated already. Is there moisture on the interior walls at the times the glass is wet? If not, maybe the walls are alright. Also check over the ceiling for any signs of mildew or dampness to see if you need to do anything there. Worth investigating before shelling out for wall/ceiling insulation that may be redundant. --Brother Dan

[knightfly]

Dan, you don't want double or triple pane windows in a sound isolated space; causes a SERIOUS loss of isolation due to multi-leaf effects. Windows, as walls and ceilings, need to have two leaves of mass separated by ONE air gap for best isolation in any given construction.

If windows are used, it's better to use a single pane with a second SINGLE pane as far apart as possible, with the frames preferably isolated from each other to avoid flanking. You then ventilate the space between glasses into the wall insulation area.

For a music space, it's advisable to keep the relative humidity between 40-42% for several reasons - less chance of condensation (caused by temperature difference AND high RH) - and pianos/guitars/other wooden instruments are MUCH happier at 40-42%. Mold, however, is NOT happy at that low RH; same with dust mites, etc, so another reason to dehumidify.

I keep a dehumidifier in my space year 'round, and it's a running battle to keep the humidity that low (Central Oregon, USA) but I know it's helping; I empty the reservoir daily, and use the typical 1-1/2 to 2 gallons of water to water houseplants/animals, etc.

Keep in mind that "Relative" is the key word here; that percentage is the percent of water in the air, RELATIVE to the MAX the air can hold at that temperature. If the temp gets colder, the air can't hold as much water so the relative humidity is higher. This means that, in a room with poor insulation, the walls will (in winter) likely be colder than the center of the room - so if you measure RH at the room's center, then measure at a wall (or window) the RH will be HIGHER at the wall or window.

This is also a favorite spot for mold, so it's important to keep the RH LOWER than you might think so that at the wall, it's low enough not to propagate mold.

Gotta go for now, hope this makes sense... Steve

[len-morgan]

Just to answer the condensation question: No, the walls were dry as a bone when the windows were dripping. I've been in this building for about 5 years (I used to be a part owner of the business that owned the building before I bought it). We never had a condensation problem. This time, the A/C and/heater had not been turned on for over a year so who knows what the RH was.

len

[len-morgan]

Brother Dan,

It took me until just now to realize who you were. Your username went right over my head! It's strange that I had to look at your profile to find out your actual job title after all these years!

As to "redundant" insulation, I my case (and most other people here) we aren't using insulation for it's thermal properties but rather for accoustic reasons. I think if you take a look at the saecollege site (I can get the exact link if you want but it's pointed to here several times), it's explained there. In my particular case it COULD be overkill although insulation is probably the cheapest of the big things I have to buy. I have a very solid building that's not letting out the sound right now before I even put a single wall up. My task with the walls is to try and isolate the rooms from each other.

Now that I know you're watching here, I'll try and get some more pictures today. Not a whole lot to show at this point - just more framing.

--Brother Len

[len-morgan]

Yipee!!!!! I just got a call back from one of the two building supply places in town and he can get me all the UNfaced R-11 I need for just under .20/sq ft! It's the OC pink stuff. The nice thing (according to this guy) is that the unfaced stuff is 24" wide and the faced stuff is only 23". That is done so there is a little compression to hold the insulation in the walls!

Also, the difference between R-11 and R-13 is only 1/8" in thickness.

len

[sharward]

Awesome!! Great service from good ol' Booneyville Building Supplies!

[laserpistol]

I looked at the floor plans and pictures again and it looks like all the exterior windows are outside the double wall partitions that are being built. Therefore -- and I ask in complete ignorance -- doesn't this mean that whether these exterior windows are single or double paned is not a factor in sound isolation?

I understand the point in relation to the window looking out from the control room.

Len, this is looking great! Please tell me that the pictures showing you in the building represent actual work. You're really doing this, aren't you?

- Brother Dan

[len-morgan]

I looked at the floor plans and pictures again and it looks like all the exterior windows are outside the double wall partitions that are being built. Therefore -- and I ask in complete ignorance -- doesn't this mean that whether these exterior windows are single or double paned is not a factor in sound isolation?

You've confused me (of course, you better than anyone know how easy that is to do) The windows along the North wall (pretty much the entire front of the building) are only a factor when you consider sound leaking out of the studio and into the neighborhood. As to being inside/outside the double walls, if you look at the drawing, specifically the back of the control room (North end of it), there is only a single wall. The other wall is the building itself with the windows in it so the combination is my second leaf.

What you don't see yet (because I haven't done it yet) is the metal roofing material that is going to cover those windows. Right now I have some old office partitions leaning up against windows to keep prying eyes out. They are going up mostly to discourage drunk teenagers from throwing rocks through the glass. I'm going to insulate behind that (I think) so that the metal doesn't act like a drum head. I'm also going to cover the glass door with a steel plate which will help with isolation and temptation.

The basic empty building shell is already very well isolated sonically. There is at least a 50 dB TL (measured with an SPL meter) even when you are standing right in front of the door or window. The double walls inside the studio are to keep sound getting from one room to the next rather than keeping it in the building. My nearest neighbor is probably 50 yards away so I shouldn't have a problem.

Len, this is looking great! Please tell me that the pictures showing you in the building represent actual work. You're really doing this, aren't you?

Again, your question confuses me a little. The guy in the picture is NOT me - he's my electrician/carpenter friend from the prison. He's loaned me most of the tools and has been very helpful in construction so far. If your question was "are you just taking pictures of someone else's studio", no, it's really mine. I bought the building and it's really happening. Gene and I have both had things come up this week so we probably aren't going to have the inspection done until next week. I've got to take Vika to school but I'm going from there to studio to build some ceiling beams. Once we get that all up, we'll get the inspection and then we can really go to town finishing up. One of my first projects in the new studio will be new version (i.e., more than just a guitar) of "We are Christian Soldiers." If I can remember all the words of course. On a private note (like the rest of this post wasn't) do you remember all the words to "Something got a hold of me?" I think I'm missing a verse or two.

Love to all of yours!! - Brother len

[sharward]

The guy in the picture is NOT me - he's my electrician/carpenter friend from the prison.

Gee, I sure hope his time spent at "the prison" is as an employee and not part of its inmate population!

[len-morgan]

He still does WORK there. Writing software for prisons is my source of income (i.e., what gives me the cash to build a studio). We've got six prisons in town - 1 Federal, 1 State, 4 Private. It's the private ones that I make my money from.

len

[sharward]

Cool -- I'm a software guy too... And a friend of ours is a social worker at a high security "special needs yard" (i.e., rapists, gang squealers, etc.) here in California... Scary stuff!

[len-morgan]

It's an entirely different world "inside." When I first started there, half of the stuff didn't make sense in the "real" world. As I've looked at other software used in prisons, it was obvious that it was written by a programmer who had very little experience with prisons and the quality of staff available.

There are some users of my system that have trouble spelling G.E.D.! I have developed a pretty idiot-proof system but the problem is that they keep making better idiots!

len

[knightfly]

Just noticed that apparently you're having the rear wall of the CR up against the "window wall", correct? What's the gap between glass and inner CR wall?

Laser, good call; with the exception of the rear CR wall area, the glass is so far from the second mass there should be no problem with isolation... Steve

[len-morgan]

The gap is about 14". Actually, I'm going to plug up the windows with some "solid" styrofoam (the blue stuff) tight against the glass with plywood holding it tight against the windows. The outside of the windows will also be covered with steel roof sheets (more for security than accoustics). I know there is going to be a small third leaf effect but the glass is laminated 7/8" thick so I'm thinking that it won't make too much of a difference (fingers crossed!)

len

[sharward]

7/8" thick laminated glass? Boy, you could probably remove those windows and sell chunks of it to fellow studio builders!