Pro Tools or Logic ???

45aken · Post by **45aken** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:20 pm

I really think it depends on what you want out of your system.
I use a mixture between protools and logic (now logic 8, which has been pretty good so far), and both have there plus sides.

I've always though of it this way
Logic (or cubase etc etc) started off life as MIDI sequencers, and they can just about do everything you'll ever need with midi. Audio (editing wise) on the other hand in my opinion is not quite to speed with protools, which started off life (and basically is) as an audio edit/multitrack tape system. You can basically FORGET about midi composition in protools, it beyond ridiculous!
The greatest thing about the tools is it is completely in-destructive, you can edit your audio all day long, and as long as you dont audiosuite it your original file will still be 100% intact. I dont know if im the only one, but the amount of times logic has rewritten files is a joke.
Plus the sheer editing speed of protools with an advanced user is amazing. I know that no matter what studio i goto with a protools system, no matter what desk they have, all my shortcuts, windows, settings will be the same, which is great. (mind you i hate having to goto the i/o setup nearly everytime i open a project)

I like to compare the 2 with microsoft paint and photoshop. Protools is like paint; it's old, ugly and simple, but IT JUST WORKS. whereas i think of logic/cubase/performer as photoshop; It does everything that paint does, except its way more complex, but because their so in depth some things take longer to do.

It's always going to be a debate, and i honestly thing protools isn't going anywhere. the HD systems are great because it takes all the work out of the computer, but their also very expensive.
I think a mixture of both is the best way to go about it. and with logic studio now ~$600 who can complain?

brianrcdd · Post by **brianrcdd** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am

Another thing to factor into this equation: People are now doing things with PTLE that seem to put the value of/need for PTHD into question. On an Intel quad (such as the Q6600, less than $250) people are describing Dverb plugin counts that number in the 300's. They are also running at extremely low latency settings, all but eliminating that issue. Yeah, you're still stuck at 32 tracks (48 stereo with the MP toolkit), but even that can be overcome with a little trickery. Check this thread for some people doing some serious testing of the subject.

I have used PT, Sonar, Cubase, etc. I have to agree with others that say it has a lot to do with personal preference. I always gravitate back to Pro Tools, but I mainly because I am comfortable with the workflow. I have had little or no issues with it. Pro Tools LE is finicky about giving it enough horsepower in the PC department, but as pointed out above this is rapidly becoming a non-issue.

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Post by **Drumdrumdrumdrum** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:47 am

It always surprise me when people comment on PT LE putting PT TDM out of the market.

It's like saying that a Honda Civic is just as good as a F1 because Honda have a F1 team. Or that a BMW 3 series is just as good as a 7 series because it has BMW on the bonnet.

This is not true. PT LE sounds thin and tinny, All the LE Didgidesign IO's suck and it will not and can not sound as good as an ale-cart 'Logic', 'Sonor' or 'Cubase' system.

PT TDM is still the best system around for computer based recording. The reason it costs 10 times more than the absolutely crappy LE is because it is 10 times better.

IMHO

Edo Peters · Post by **Edo Peters** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:51 am

I agree for at least 90%...

brianrcdd · Post by **brianrcdd** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:39 am

Note that I did not use the phrase you did, "putting PT TDM out of the market.". What I was trying to bring out is this: when people are contemplating the choice between the TDM and LE solutions, their decision factors are changing. It used to be you couldn't get anywhere near the same functionality. That gap is narrowing, IMHO. When I say functionality, I refer to things like actual track counts and plugins achieveable, and low latency setting that were previously unusable.

As to whether or not there are differences in audio quality between the two platforms, you may or may not be right. But your statement that "All the LE Didgidesign IO's suck" does not seem like a supportable position in its extremeness. Besides, you can use high-quality external ADAT-connected IO of your choice, and still be orders of magnitude below the cost of a TDM solution. Is that still sucky? It starts to get harder to determine.

Don't misunderstand my opinion here. I agree the TDM solution is excellent, and the thing to buy. What I was trying to point out is with the higher octane PCs available now there are more reasons for cash-strapped project studios to get into the PT game.

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Post by **Drumdrumdrumdrum** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:31 am

Duly noted.

"All Digi IO's suck!" That must be the missing 10%. I regret saying that now.

As long as people realize that when they buy PT LE they are not really getting "ProTools". They maybe a getting a reasonable DAW for there money but don't be telling people or advertising your studio as having "ProTools" if it is LE.

As someone said. Logic Studio for $600......... who can complain.

PT HD TDM ........9/10.
Logic Studio.......8/10
PT LE ..........5/10

My 2c

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Fri May 02, 2008 7:36 pm

DDDD Wrote:

As long as people realize that when they buy PT LE they are not really getting "ProTools". They maybe a getting a reasonable DAW for there money but don't be telling people or advertising your studio as having "ProTools" if it is LE.

Ah, at last, someone has said what I've been saying for years!

(Appologies if anyone had already said it.)

Regards dudes,

Lou.

ps-2205-ycho · Post by **ps-2205-ycho** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:00 am

i don't have the experience that a lot of people have in this forum (wish one day)

for the fact i was a free lancer , i'v faced a lot of setups and DAW's somehow they are the same , but when it comes to quality and power what does matter here are your outboard stuff ((as they said before ... i don't think that you gonna like having PT LE))

i hated PT cause i had LE before, but when i used HD on a studio , that was amazing

But like the most i think go for CUBASE

Sorry for my english

brianrcdd · Post by **brianrcdd** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:37 am

Hmmm. I'm going to approach this carefully, because I don't want to give the wrong impression.

1. If you dig into the actual specs, the Pro Tools HD hardware is better than the LE gear. No argument. Unless you have the BLA mods done on your LE gear; then it gets interesting.

2. I don't believe anybody outside of Digidesign has a definitive answer as to whether or not there are underlying software code differences in the two platforms that affect audio quality. There may well be, and I know people have said in their opinion there is a difference. My gut says Digi is not going to maintain two different code sets (aside from the differences inherently necessary) - too labor intensive for a company that seems to struggle to keep up with the market, feature-wise. But I have zero knowledge of the situation, so I do not know.

All this aside, I would submit to you that a good engineer and a good artist can produce a grammy-winning recording with something considerably less in quality than either product. History tells us this is true time and time again. True, better tools make life easier. But tools are no substitute for talent. So to say it's wrong to advertise Pro Tools capability when all you have is Pro Tools LE is a bit of a nit to me. If you can't advertise on your ability and reputation and provide examples of that ability, selling your services via the equipment/software list is meaningful only to those folks who don't know what makes a good recording in the first place.

Unfortunately, I suppose that would be a large portion of the clients out there, and you have to bring them in the door somehow. It's just sad that the customer micro-manages our studios by driving our equipment selection through name dropping. "Do you have a Neumann U87 Anniversary Edition? My guitar only sounds good recorded with those." "Do you have Pro Tools HD? It has to be, or we won't sound good." Where's the abilities of the studio staff in this line of questions?

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Sat May 03, 2008 8:41 pm

Excellent post Brian.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

The talent of an artist, composer, engineer or producer, will always far outway the 'flashness' of the gear used.

If you like, a great producer can make a crap track sound like a commercial hit, and alternatively, a lousy producer with all the gizmos available, can make an awesome song sound appauling in under an hour!

For what it's worth, I've been earning my living (for the last ten years at least) running Cubase VST 32 on a P.C.! I've never had any complaints, and have never had to chase for payment.

Kind regards,

Lou.

brianrcdd · Post by **brianrcdd** » Sun May 04, 2008 6:28 am

can make an awesome song sound appauling in under an hour!

I've done that more than a few times myself, Lou!

Fighting the temptation to do something when nothing is really needed is my biggest battle. It just that there's so many pretty knobs and screens and things

While I recognize the need for talent, I don't necessarily claim to have it. Seems to be at a workable level, but there are times when I wonder...

jammin dad · Post by **jammin dad** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:21 am

Hello all, i've been following this one from the start. I'm no pro be any means but i think what lays out the question of good sound and quality, listen to anything during the 50's thru the 70's and look what they had to work with and what amazing things they produced without digital and without pro-tools, nothing but talent and imagination.

joey · Post by **joey** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:30 pm

i use pro tools hd on a g5. for me it was for the sound quality and power as i use a lot of audio files. i had a pc with a £200 SOUND CARD

before and all i used to get was clicks and pops ect. which reuined my whole vibe and slowed everthing down. so i also agree that its down to the person and that different things work for different people but for me pro tools simplified the process.

try not to get hung up on technology. i know its cool but knowing how to use what you have is what its al about. so aslong as it works crack on.

joey

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Post by **Drumdrumdrumdrum** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:09 am

I had to laugh recently when I read that when the legendary Jeff Poracro recorded 'Africa' by Toto they looped the drum beat on tape stuck together with sticky tape and looped around two microphone stands!!!!! They had to watched that the stands didn't fall over.

They did a run and got about 200 bars of loop on the other multitrack before the tape started to degrade too much. I listen to it the other day. You can here it losing it's top end if you listen very carefully. Play the start then the end.

Now, how many Grammy's did they win that year?

I sure would love one of those mic stands in my collection

I think fast running tape is still better then DAW. Now there is another thread

Sideshow · Post by **Sideshow** » Tue May 27, 2008 2:46 pm

This kind of discussion is starting to smell.....the pros and cons have been articulated ad nauseum, but I like the smell

Yes, I seem surrounded by budding young bands with Pro Tools LE.......they tell me everything else pales in significance....ha ha - possibly a flock of sheep...

Then the "experts" tell us that Pro Tools is the industry standard. Really!?
Maybe last century...AND who wants to see a monopoly in any industry?!

And then the audio schools here and over the seven seas offer expensive courses in audio and ohms law - generally only offered on Pro Tools....

In addition I don't like to be locked into one brand of hardware (like Macs too)

& we should be open to the very distinct possibility that the music retailers make more from selling you Pro Tools at every turn...think about it

Ah the DigiDesign marketing machine - you have to hand it to them!!

Well for those who can see beyond the hype - Cubase, Sonar, DP and Logic are great! Pro Tools is fine too, but I must say LE has some real drawbacks (as I am sure you are well aware) - but in short it's a VERY thin line between all of them nowadays....

I have used Cubase for a long time - does more than I need and for the cost is amazing! With Yamaha behind it I can't really go wrong. If I need to work with Television I would pay the upgrade to Nuendo. But as I said Cubase does everything I need - SongCave is booked solid beyond August - if someone prefers to drop names of their "must haves" I am only too happy to refer them somewhere else. If I can get an early "heads up" insight into a potential difficult customer with misinformed prejudices all the better - life is too short and I get the rent paid without them.

As for Tape - expensive can of worms methinks....

But then again, maybe I should toe the line and change to Pro Tools, Mackie, Neve, NS10s, Tape and everything else that I am told is the best - and can I have supersized fries with that for good measure?

I am sure that once they have downloaded the song from iTunes, the end user/consumer will write to me thanking me for my impeccable choice in production equipment..!

My 2cents