John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

OK Greg, thank you.

I have passed on that information. The contractor has set aside some full days to work on this but I let him know there are going to be periods of doing things and waiting so if he has something else to take care of for someone that is waiting maybe he should do that.

Thank you

OK, it looks like I'm going to be an electronic drummer for a while, at least at home.

We came home with all the wood to do the room within the room framing but wife did not want the two doors, worried about resale,etc., blah blah blah.

I still wanted to do the isolation clips and double sheetrock and green glue, but with about 50 sheets between the inside and outside walls it was getting pricey regarding hanging them.

So, we're just going to take care of the ceiling right now. That's really my main concern with my neighbor right now. He's only heard the double bass on the silent stroke when I did it constantly and I actually asked him to listen for it. He's never even complained, it's just in the back of my mind when playing and I think this will eliminate that thought.

The soffit is framed right now. I stuffed rockwool between the drum room and basement space (opposite the neighbors side). We're going to move the a/c vent from the ceiling inside the room to the HVAC room and have the vent come in on the upper wall. We'll have a baffle box on that outside wall for the a/c vent.

I have a bunch of rockwool for the ceiling and I'll also fill it in with the fiberglass that is currently on the walls (taking the paper off) because I will be putting rockwool in the wall spaces.

Regarding the ceiling, I have isolation clips so I'll pick up hat channel. I know the sheets should be staggered so the seams don't match up. If they're going the same direction, and I start the 2nd layer on a different wall the seams are going to be within a foot of each other.

Is that OK? If not, it is OK to to install the 2nd layer at a 90 degree angle from the first layer?

Thank you,

We came home with all the wood to do the room within the room framing but wife did not want the two doors, worried about resale,etc., blah blah blah.

She does know you can remove one door if you want to sell the place, right?

I still wanted to do the isolation clips and double sheetrock and green glue, but with about 50 sheets between the inside and outside walls it was getting pricey regarding hanging them.

Isolation doesn't come cheap. How does you physically going down and lifting/screwing them into place equate to "pricey"?

So, we're just going to take care of the ceiling right now. That's really my main concern with my neighbor right now. He's only heard the double bass on the silent stroke when I did it constantly and I actually asked him to listen for it. He's never even complained, it's just in the back of my mind when playing and I think this will eliminate that thought.

Isolation doesn't work in stages. I'm personally very close to beefing up my ceiling and boxing in my mechanical. I've spent several thousand on supplies and literally spent hundreds of hours on it. It sounds exactly the same as before. My dad asked me when we would notice a difference. I told him that we won't until it's done. It's like a tire, with one tiny pin hole in it, the air gets out and it goes flat. If you just do the ceiling, you have 4 walls for your sound to get out of. We don't have to consider your floor because it's concrete slab.

Regarding the ceiling, I have isolation clips so I'll pick up hat channel. I know the sheets should be staggered so the seams don't match up. If they're going the same direction, and I start the 2nd layer on a different wall the seams are going to be within a foot of each other.

Those clips and hat probably cost you a lot more than framing a decoupled inner leaf would cost you. And they won't help with the bottom end going to your neighbour.

Is that OK? If not, it is OK to to install the 2nd layer at a 90 degree angle from the first layer?

Just make sure your seams don't line up. It's that simple. As long as the mass is there and you've be proactive about preventing any leaks, you're good to go.

Greg

She does know you can remove one door if you want to sell the place, right?

I didn't mention that, but I know the response would be something in effect to being able to see the second set of walls. Plus, the soffit where it is, is going to make for a very low doorway.
She doesn't realize this is a normal thing to do. When you get a question "who are you, some celebrity?", then there's just no reasoning. I have a better chance of selling the townhome and getting a new detached home than I do of getting this room built the correct way.

How does you physically going down and lifting/screwing them into place equate to "pricey"?

It was the labor. I was going to have someone do this. Getting them into the basement isn't the easiest thing for me and this isn't something I do so I wanted to have it done right. Also, there would be the additional baffle boxes, additional doors, plus double the insulation.

We don't have to consider your floor because it's concrete slab.

What about the one cement wall?

Those clips and hat probably cost you a lot more than framing a decoupled inner leaf would cost you. And they won't help with the bottom end going to your neighbour.

I know that. I don't think we were going to do the ceiling the inside out way anyway so it would have been the clips and then the inner leaf walls. It might still be that in the future. I'm leaving the studs exposed on the walls right now with the rockwool in it with the possibility of building an inner leaf in the future. At least it's going to sound good in there acoustically!

The one benefit to all of this is that I have my eye on a top of the line electronic kit and module. If I have to go that route, then I want to be able to get the dynamics. I'll still have the acoustics set up with the RTOM black holes and low volume cymbals. I also have a cocktail kit.

We came home one day and our keypad for the garage door was sticking up. It's too heavy for the wind to have done that so someone must have tried to do something with it. We already have a camera in the living room. I'm getting one for the front of the house to see outside. I can see it on my phone and get notifications. The benefit to that is I can also see my neighbor pulling in and out of his garage. He rarely goes anywhere without his wife. So, I'll know when I can hop on the coctail kit or take the rtoms off of the acoustics. Sounds crazy but it's better than nothing.

Just make sure your seams don't line up. It's that simple. As long as the mass is there and you've be proactive about preventing any leaks, you're good to go.

Yes, the ceiling is getting all sealed up. There is one area between the 2 x 4's and firewall in the gap above the cement wall and the subfloor that has a small space between it. It's got rockwool in front of it and will have a lot more before the sheetrock on the ceiling goes up but I've asked the builder if it's ok to put the pink locktite sealant there ( I think it's too big for caulk) and if it's legal to do so as it is the firewall. (Just heard from the builder, and he recommended an orange spray foam that is fire rated).

Thanks for all the help and I hope I can do the inner leaf in the future but I think this will at least get me to where I can do the electronics without worrying about the neighbor and possibly the acoustic with the low volume stuff.

I didn't mention that, but I know the response would be something in effect to being able to see the second set of walls. Plus, the soffit where it is, is going to make for a very low doorway.
She doesn't realize this is a normal thing to do. When you get a question "who are you, some celebrity?", then there's just no reasoning. I have a better chance of selling the townhome and getting a new detached home than I do of getting this room built the correct way.

I understand that. Just remind her that she's crushing your dreams haha

It was the labor. I was going to have someone do this. Getting them into the basement isn't the easiest thing for me and this isn't something I do so I wanted to have it done right. Also, there would be the additional baffle boxes, additional doors, plus double the insulation.

Cheap and isolation don't work together that's for sure!

What about the one cement wall?

You're relying on mass law for that one.

Thanks for all the help and I hope I can do the inner leaf in the future but I think this will at least get me to where I can do the electronics without worrying about the neighbor and possibly the acoustic with the low volume stuff.

As long as you get to make music, that's all that matters man!

Greg

She does know you can remove one door if you want to sell the place, right?

Well, I think I got good news on my end. I left my wife know my neighbor, who also lives in a town house (obviously) thinks it would be a good selling point to have a sound reduced room in a town home. So between him and the contractor saying the same thing I think she is open to the inner leaf room. The only thing on my end is that will need to wait until the next round of funding!

As long as you get to make music, that's all that matters man!

Yes, that's never going to stop!

In the meantime, making progress on the ceiling. The subfloor was all sealed up then we installed the sheet rock between the joists. We'll have to seal that all up tomorrow.

Here is some custom cleat work as it is more of a truss than a joist: and here is it between the joists That orange foam is fire rated as there is a once inch gap between the framing and the firewall. I asked the builder what to use and if it was legal to actually use it. After that firewall is the neighbors firewall, then a one inch gap, then their framing.

Also framed out the soffit. Little compromise as my wife didn't want it so low for the rockwool that it was going to look stupid when opening the door so we'll see what we can do there. When we do the walls and solid core door the contractor said he'll cut it to the same height as the bottom of the soffit so it won't stand out/look strange.
If/when I go the inner leaf, you guys mentioned building inside out to save room. If we do that, then there will be insulation, then sheet rock, then insulation, then sheet rock again. In the Gervais book, it always shows sheet rock, insulation, insulation, sheet rock. Are these both the same thing with the same result?

Thank you

Well, I think I got good news on my end. I left my wife know my neighbor, who also lives in a town house (obviously) thinks it would be a good selling point to have a sound reduced room in a town home. So between him and the contractor saying the same thing I think she is open to the inner leaf room. The only thing on my end is that will need to wait until the next round of funding!

All I read was "I left my wife" and I thought to myself, "Damn dude, you really want your jam room, hey!??"

Here is some custom cleat work as it is more of a truss than a joist:

Good work. I cut thousands of those!

Remember to caulk the seals, not caulking the cleats. Let the caulk cure for a day, then remove the cleats, caulk where they were then put some caulk on the part of the cleat that pushes up against the drywall and re-screw the cleats into a different spot (over a few inches) from where it initially was!

If/when I go the inner leaf, you guys mentioned building inside out to save room. If we do that, then there will be insulation, then sheet rock, then insulation, then sheet rock again. In the Gervais book, it always shows sheet rock, insulation, insulation, sheet rock. Are these both the same thing with the same result?

No, because then you will have a 3 leaf system. Your ceiling needs to be:
Subfloor with beef up (which is what you're doing right now). Then the insulation that you'll stuff below that. Then your inside out ceiling drywall. That's it. Mass Spring Mass. That's the only way you should do it.

Greg

All I read was "I left my wife" and I thought to myself, "Damn dude, you really want your jam room, hey!??"

LOL! I hope that wasn't subliminal, I meant to say "let"!

No, because then you will have a 3 leaf system. Your ceiling needs to be:

I was referring to the inner walls. You had mentioned doing them inside out at one time. From what I understand that would be a two leaf system but it would be air, mass, air, mass as opposed to mass, air, air, mass. I was wondering if that was as effective because if not, I would rather lose some space but have it be more effective.

Also, regarding that space up top where you can see the purple firewall where the orange foam is, I was thinking of putting mdf in those rectangles to add some mass there. Would that be OK?

Thank you

I was referring to the inner walls. You had mentioned doing them inside out at one time. From what I understand that would be a two leaf system but it would be air, mass, air, mass as opposed to mass, air, air, mass. I was wondering if that was as effective because if not, I would rather lose some space but have it be more effective.

Without a diagram, I don't fully understand your description. Basically, for your walls, on your foundation side, it would be concrete (which is mass #1), then your frost wall framing section that is essentially just filled with insulation (which counts as your spring), then you would build an inside out room which would count as mass #2. Depending on how far your frost wall is framed from your concrete, you might be best off to just knock it down and build your inner room in it's place. As long as you have insulation there and your spring gap is large enough to provide you with the isolation you need (the formulas/calculator can help you determine this), then you're good to go! In my personal build, I have one section of frost wall framing I'm removing to increase the room size there.

Also, regarding that space up top where you can see the purple firewall where the orange foam is, I was thinking of putting mdf in those rectangles to add some mass there. Would that be OK?

So you want to box in the spray foam? I would say no. If the rim board behind it is very thin (like 3/8" osb), then something needs to be done. That something would be a bit of a nightmare (quite a few hours of annoying work) You would have to chip that out and properly add mass to the rim board. After that, you could spray foam a bit to help it seal and provide the fire block. However, if you seal it well with caulk and then have that cavity fully filled with insulation, I believe that would be your fire block (insulation is fire rated). Double check that though. I've chipped out a lot of that purple crap. It's not fun.

Greg

Without a diagram, I don't fully understand your description.

I'm not sure if you can tell from the above, but on the left is what is in the Gervais book. The inner wall with insulation, then a space, insulation, then the outer wall.

The inside out wall would be insulation, inner wall, then a space, then insulation, then the outer wall. So instead of the insulation facing insulation, a wall is facing insulation.

My question was do they both provide the same isolation or is the first one better.

If the rim board behind it is very thin (like 3/8" osb), then something needs to be done.

In the picture below you can see the firewalls all the way on the left. They're pretty thick, I think at least an inch.
It's too late now to do anything anyway as the insulation is already in place and the first layer of drywall is up on the ceiling.

Thank you

My question was do they both provide the same isolation or is the first one better.

Depending on how you build them, either could be better! Or worse. What matters mostly is the mass on each leaf, and the depth of the air cavity, as well as the insulation that fills the cavity. If both of the above were built such that they had the same mass on each leaf, the same depth of the cavity, and the same insulation in the cavity, then they would perform the same way. Isolation would be the same too. From the pure isolation point of view, it does not matter which side of the sheathing you have your studs. But it DOES matter for other reasons, such as the installation of acoustic treatment inside the room itself.


- Stuart -

And try to avoid having any "air" gap as that entire cavity should be completely filled with insulation.

Greg

Hey, just wanted to give an update on this.

So, basically we just did the ceiling and the soffit for now. It sounds like it was just a little bit, but it took two weeks of solid work and we were exhausted afterwards.

Total cost just for this part was about $3700. I'm going to have to take a break for a few months before funding the rest of the project.

We (contractor and I) were so sore I don't think we would be able to continue without a break anyway!

To sum it up, we sealed up the place, installed drywall (with green glue in between) on the subfloor (ceiling) with cleats, filled that up with three layers of Roxul safe n sound, put up isolation clips and hat channel, put up two layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. We (he) also boxed out the soffit with MDF, also on isolation clips, and put a layer of 5/8" sheet rock on that with green glue in between the mdf and the drywall. We also removed the light and electrical box and replaced that with track lighting.

He also removed the a/c duct that was in the ceiling and moved it outside the room. We started building the baffle box (below) but did not get to installing it yet. I do have to research what is supposed to go in it. I know I can search the threads here and find out. We'll build another one for the output.
We also put up one layer of drywall in the sump pump room and the HVAC room.

Remember, this is really only supposed to be for the electronic kit (that is an acoustic kit converted) and the low volume heads and cymbals on the other acoustic kit.

My wife said she was still hearing it, although muffled.

So, I had my wife play (I'll use that term loosely. She's great, but why does everyone that sits down at a drum set loose all control and feel they have to play crazy, hitting the rims and everything else?), I told her just hit the floor tom and the bass drum. As I mentioned, these are full size drums with mesh heads so you still get some tone and more bass on these two.

I went upstairs and listened. I was happy to hear that the sound was really coming from a vent that is located in the sump pump room. There is no door to that room right now. The other vents left in the drum room lead upstairs to the master bedroom, bathroom, and closet. Those are buried in insulation. While she was still playing I went upstairs and put my ear to the vents and couldn't hear a thing.

I'm sure by insulating that duct in the sump pump room, getting a solid core door, and closing up the ceiling between the drum room and sump pump room, I'll eliminate that issue.

When I'm in the basement part I can hear the bass from the subwoofer on the TV upstairs. If I stand by the sump pump room with the drum room door closed, I can still hear it, but a little less. If I walk across diagonally to the far corner, I can barely hear it if I try.

So, for what I need, I think we're off to a good start. I saw the neighbor after I had only played one time but he says he doesn't hear anything. I don't think he will hear anything regarding what I'm playing now.

The next step is doing the walls. I don't want to lose anymore real estate, so we'll go with the isolation clips there and the two layers of drywall with the green glue and more roxul safe n sound. The sump pump room and HVAC room will get another layer as well as the adjacent basement wall. We'll extend the outlets and put putty on them. We'll add two solid core doors, one for the drum room one for the sump pump room. We'll close up the ceiling above the wall in the sump pump room and HVAC room (as much as possible, there's a lot of pipes of wires there), and we'll add the baffle boxes and vents. I'm probably leaving out something, but we'll do whatever that is too!

On a side note, as I'm typing this on the second floor there is a painter here painting the basement who is also a drummer. He wanted to check out the electronic set and was playing with headphones and I couldn't hear him at all.

Thanks for all of the help and advice!

We started building the baffle box (below) but did not get to installing it yet. I do have to research what is supposed to go in it. I know I can search the threads here and find out. We'll build another one for the output.

You need to line it with duct liner. I recommend Owens Corning QuietR Rotary duct liner. 1" thick. Looking at your box, it seems that your baffles are too long and your cross sectional area around the ends of the baffles gets really small. That will introduce a ton of static pressure to your system. I'd chop those shorter if I were you.

I'm glad to hear things are shaping up for you. And good work! Reading how much you did in 2 weeks gave me anxiety.

Greg

cross sectional area around the ends of the baffles gets really small.

I understand the first part, the baffles too long, but I'm not sure about the cross sectional part. Is that the area where the baffles end? If we cut down the baffles will that address both issues?

Regarding the Owens Corning, I'm only seeing a couple of sausage shapes packages on ebay, everyone else wants a quote request. I don't think I need that much. If I cannot get this, is there another product that would come close?

Thank you,

Merp