Steel Stud and RC framing question..

[Innovations]

Thanks for the update.

An idea that has running through my head ties in with how much isolation do you need between the main live room and the iso booth? Have you considered not having the wall between the iso booth and the sound lock? The room would be a sound lock most of the time, but it gives more space for when it is used as an iso booth. I recall on another site Rod once posted an image from a first class facility where such a system was used.

Well, having the sound lock and the iso room be one and the same I don't think saves a lot of money, because with the sound lock you need only one door from the iso booth to the sound lock, whereas if the iso booth and the sound lock were the same you would need a double door from the CR to the soundlock/iso-room and a double door between the Live Room and the iso-room and a double door between the iso-room and the entrance. And in my personal experience, no matter how they swing them I have never found a double door on spring hinges that wasn't a pain to use, particularly if I was also having to carry something like an instrument or mic stand. With the sound lock you don't have to be holding the one door open while opening the second.

Ther may be some other minor advantages. One might be that the mics in the iso room are not exposed to accidental damage from people going back and forth between the other rooms. Another thing is that if somebody from the entry carelessly comes into the soundlock it is possible, if they haven't been noisy about it, to not have spoiled something being tracked in the iso room.

[AVare]

Well, having the sound lock and the iso room be one and the same I don't think saves a lot of money, because with the sound lock you need only one door from the iso booth to the sound lock, whereas if the iso booth and the sound lock were the same you would need a double door

Double doors are not necessary, depending on the amount of isolation required. Have a look at Joe Egan's Studio in the Studios Under Construction section. Single doors between piano iso and control room and single leaf sliding doors between piano iso and main studio room. It comes down to a question of balancing:

cost,
isolation required, and
benefit of larger iso booth.

With regards to someone walking in and ruining a take, that is what "Recording" lights are for outside the door.

Another consideration within the idea is to put glass in the door(s) removing the need for constructing separate windows. I haven't noticed, or remember how visual communication is going to be made between the iso booth and the main live room.

Actually, as I write this, the idea of the single iso/sound lock with a window in the door to the main live room seems very attractive!

The nicest thing is that talk is cheap!

BTW great ideas you have made in this thread.

Andre

[Travelreview]

It's sunrise here in Montreal so I though I would add in a quick reply and a few questions just before I head off to sledgehammercrowbarland (my newly coined term for demolishion)...

For visibility between the Iso and CR, no matter which approach I end up using for the soundlock, I will have glass doors (or at least doors with large tempered glass window panels) custom made at my brother-in-law's door and window factory. I just wish he could make me a few special sliding glass door units, but his factory is not tooled for that fabrication process.

Here's a few more questions......a rough existing ceiling view is attached, but this diagram is from memory only and is not at all exact or to proper scale, but it will hopefully give the general idea of the joist and beam orientations.

Any thoughts on how I can achieve the proper attachment of the RSIC-1 mounts, and create a 12 degree ceiling splay, (and still maintain structural stability of the new ceiling) if the overhead ceiling joists are running the wrong direction (and are also obstructed by a few 6" high steel I beams supporting them from below)????

Also, If I put the steel wall frames up first, and then create the ceilings using the RSIC-1 mounts with furring to suspend the gyprock within the inner CR walls, what material should I use to hold up the Roxul insulation that I'll pack into the joist cavities above the new ceiling, without creating a third mass layer, perhaps wire mesh???

Finally, if using double walls, must this RSIC-1 suspended isolated ceiling be continued in non spl producing areas such as the spaces behind the CR and in the gaps between inner and outer wall frames???.

- RON

[dave downunder]

How about bringing the ceiling level down to underneath the 6" steel beams by suspending the RSIC-1 clips from the joists using hangers. Then run the furring channel parallel to the steel beams so the sheets just clear the lower edge of the steel beams.

You could vary the height of the hangers to create a slope.

Then just lay the insulation on top of the furring channel - use wall batts (stiffened) rather than ceiling batts or use wire mesh.
(later thought... or even string would be sufficient to hold the batts in place until you get the sheets on - then the batts are supported by the sheets.)

Your equivalent Canadian supplier to Rondo here in Australia will have all the gear for hanging the clips including adjustable hangers. Have a look in this PDF http://www.rondo.com.au/rondo/documents/duo.pdf and others on the Rondo site - you'll see pics of this sort of set-up.

Sorry this is rushed... Dave

[AVare]

Great stuff going on here. Please be cautious as you do your construction per advice you read here. Try and wait at least a day after something is posted for it be reviewed by other people here. Everyone, including myself makes mistakes, whether it is based on knowledge, or not clear writing. The time lets suggestions be proof read.

For visibility between the Iso and CR, no matter which approach I end up using for the soundlock,

I was referring to visibility between the iso booth and the main live room. Helps the musicians play together and get the feel of the performance.

With out quoting your post. Safe n Sound etc are available in widths that can be friction between the joists, with the friction being sufficient to hold the material in place until the gypsum board is installed.

Sorry no useful ideas on your other questions.

Andre

[Travelreview]

Thanks for the great advice Andre, I appreciate your point about waiting at least a day or two before following any suggestions posted on the thread, to allow for debate and further verification from other forum members. I am currently about 3 days away from completing the demolishion, so I have a built-in lead time of several days between reading the replies and actually doing anything that is advised in them.

As far as DownUnder Dave's suggestion about using "Hangers" to drop or suspend the RSIC-1 clips, here's my thoughts.....

The link to the Rondo site was very interseting indeed, but I am more than a bit uncomfortable about the stability of suspending the RSIC-1 clips and the furring and 2 layers of gyprock from what is essentially a Tee Bar grid system similiar in design to the ones that hold up acoustic tiles.

Perhaps there is a more robust way to extend (downward) the overhead ceiling joists past the bottom of the steel I beams via bolting 2"x4" and 2"x6" and 2"x8" and 2"x10" wood (perpendicular???) to these existing 3" x 11" joists and creating the splay in that process, once the RSIC clips/furring/gyprock are attached to the underside of these proposed added wood "extenders"???

I am not, as of yet, at all sure if this will provide nearly enough structural integrity to support the load properly, and I also realize the splay may not reach the desired 12 degrees in this manner, but I guess some splay is better than no splay. Is this a possible solution and will adding these "extenders" create a sturdy enough base to properly support the load?

Any advice on alternative methods of securing the RSIC-1 mounts/furring/sheetreock to my ceiling would be greatly appreciated!

I also have another question...
If the wall framing goes up before constructing the new ceiling, and the wall's steel studs' tracks are attached directly to both the floor and the ceiling joists for stability, will the wall frame itself short-out the isolation that I am trying to achieve by using the RSIC-1 system in the first place???

Any thoughts....

- Ron Charles

[dave downunder]

I am more than a bit uncomfortable about the stability of suspending the RSIC-1 clips and the furring and 2 layers of gyprock from what is essentially a Tee Bar grid system similiar in design to the ones that hold up acoustic tiles.

I wasn't suggesting you use a grid system designed for acoustic tiles. Of course that's unlikely to work. The main idea being offered was to hang the ceiling below the steel beams rather than between them. The reference to the pictures in the PDF were to illustrate the idea and see the components involved in building a suspended ceiling.

If you have a close look through the various Rondo PDF's - http://www.rondo.com.au/rondo/rdo_liter ... 1&status=1 - you'll see there's all sorts of systems described including ceilings you can walk on. A supplier like Rondo, just offers all the components - it's up to you to select the parts most suitable for your application.

Suggest you call the supplier of the RSIC-1 mounts, explain you want to suspend them from the joists at varying heights and ask if they have any suitable adjustable hangers or know anyone who does. This is a common situation - you won't be the first person who wanted to suspend RSIC-1 clips - the parts must exist in the U.S. or Canada.

You could use timber, but it's fairly cumbersome to work with in this situation - you need some adjustment to get the furring channels in the same plane - whether it's sloping or flat.

For my own suspended ceiling, I used steel brackets from the hardware store. They're actually framing brackets designed for joining timber underneath decks and so forth. They have a slot as well as holes for screws. So initially I fix them to the joist with one screw in the slot of each bracket, slide them up and down until the furring channel is level, then screw them firmly to the joists with additional screws through the holes in the bracket. The Gyprock resilient mount then attaches to the foot of the bracket with either a screw or bolt.

But a purpose built hanger will most likely have several components - a bracket that screws to the joist, a threaded rod that passes through this bracket and fixes with a nut, and another bracket to go on the other end to which the RSIC-1 clips can be screwed or bolted. This will give you fine tuning of the furring channel height over a large area.

If you have a look on page 5 of the PDF referred to above, http://www.rondo.com.au/rondo/documents/duo.pdf you'll see some 1/4" steel suspension rods and various brackets designed for attaching to joists and to the rod . Also have a look at pg3 of this PDF of the Rondo Walkabout system - http://www.rondo.com.au/rondo/documents/WlkA2002.pdf - the 129 and 308 furring channel fits the Gyprock Resilient Mount and they use an 8mm (5/16") suspension rod.

This is the sort of gear you are looking for. You're not hanging acoustic tiles nor intend walking on it. So calculate the load (add up your weight per sq/ft - 2 x 5/8" sheetrock plus insulation, lighting etc), work out the spacing of your RSIC-1 clips and the load per hanger, then call your suppliers and ask for an adjustable hanger suitable to carry that load and which has a bracket suitable to attach the RSIC-1 clips.

[Travelreview]

Thanks Dave,

Now I finally get the idea!. You have been a great source of simple solutions to my somewhat complex problems, and I thank you and Andre and Steve for all your help!

I will call my Canadian supplier for the RSIC-1 clips and see if something can be locally found (like a hybrid version of PAC Int.'s RSIC-1 Ext04 Extender and RSIC-1 Truss clips). I have a few other issues to deal with such as fire sprinklers and plumbing pipes, but the Architect will help me fiqure that out and also do the load calculations...

By the way, when I connect our upper steel stud frame tracks to the bottom of the existing ceiling joists, do I need a special iso bracket or can I perhaps sandwich in a layer (and drill straight through) something a bit less costly such as Neoprene between the wooden joist and the metal frame track to somewhat isolate the wall and ceiling???

- RON

[knightfly]

Ron, can you (re)post the size, spacing, and span of your wood ceiling joists? Then I can calc the likely amount of flex for a better answer - you do NOT want your walls to support the ceiling joists, especially if you're doing double frame walls - flanking will bite yer butt here if you're not careful... Steve

[Innovations]

Well you could try to direct attach the ceiling RISC-1 clips to the joists and then try to box around the beams Or you could suspend a ceiling of cold rolled channel and then use the clips intended for that purpose. like this
http://www.studandtrack.com/pdf_test/te ... _stc50.pdf

[Travelreview]

Thanks Steve and Innovation...

I will meet my architect later today to accurately survey the space and CAD out a more detailed diagram of the existing ceiling sturcture as well as the location of any obstructions such as pipes, HVAC and fire sprinklers. I will post this by Monday so Steve and others can assist in deciding the plan of attack!

I will avoid the cold rolled ceiling method (since there is a lack of local availability of those specially designed RISC1.5CRC clips for that specific application), but direct attachment of 100 or so RISC-1 clips to the bottom of the existing ceiling joists (along with intensive boxing around the beams) may be a good potential solution, once I can determine how to best incorperate a slope into the design.

I'll post the new data within 48 hours...

- RON CHARLES

[Innovations]

The RISC-1 clips attached to the bottom of the joists will be flat...because the joists are flat!

You might be better taking the approach of using some clouds or attached diffuser to keep the wall and floor from being parallel surfaces.

[Travelreview]

Hi Steve,

As per your request, here are the most recent architectural diagram of the exisiting ceiling structure.

I thank you for your kind offer to help me with the calculations and load capability of adding a suspended ceiling of dual layers of 5/8" type X gyprock on either 22 or 25 gauge furring mounted on the RSIC-1 mounts (100 of which arrived yesterday!) which we intend to attach either directly to the joists or to some sort of extenders fixed to the joists.

Please note the I beams that may require additional consideration as they may get in the way and cannot be moved!.

Please let me know if you require any additional data...

RON CHARLES

[Travelreview]

Thanks to all who have helped me get a much firmer grip on the aspects needed for the studio rebuild I am about to undertake! I have donated additional funds to help support this forum which has been so generous to me in my endevours.

In order to better organize my future questions about varoius specific aspects of the studio construction that I will need to request assistance for, DownUnder Dave has suggested that I start a few new threads that branch off from this current wandering collection of topics.

Each new thread will be with introduced a bit of background and a few quotes from this present thread, and also more detail about the advice, test results and consultations provided by local architects/engineers, John Sayers, and quotes of previous input from others such as AVare, Knighfly, Innovations, DownUnder Dave and others that have provided a wealth of information and resources to me thus far..

Please be patient and forgive me if you see any repeated info in any of my future specific threads asking for advice and/or clarification about floating floors, rc, steel framing, window design, speaker soffits, and acoustic treatments. I do not mean to duplicate my inquiries, but as Dave has correctly informed me, it may be a better idea to make each topic into a seperate thread and thus better improve the quality and quantity of responses from those other forum users that have more expertise or opinions in one specific topic of discussion.

Thanks so much to all, I really appreciate your time and encouragement...

Ron Charles
ParaMedia Studios
Montreal
Travelreview@Hotmail.com
514-572-3100

[knightfly]

Ron, haven't forgotten you just not enough time yet to consider all the facets of this - work hasn't been slow lately, nor home for that matter (nice weather, too many projects) - hopefully in the next couple of days... Steve