Studio design in a barn

[ward]

After all this time, thinking, dreaming and a lot of procrastinating,
I finally started building.
I hope you can see this album for some of the progress pics...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DEUQTtsr8H8mK6bs9

[Soundman2020]

I hope you can see this album for some of the progress pics...

Please read the forum rules for posting images (click here). You seem to be missing something important

- Stuart -

[ward]

*

[Soundman2020]

? Did you read the rules yet ?

[ward]

Okay, sorry for not following the rules.
Finally found some time to do this properly.
(And I found a nice way of resizing images for the forum:
http://www.gad.net/Blog/2017/01/18/batc ... automator/)

So, the progress....

I have a concrete floor 20cm thick.
Old brick walls 30cm thick, injected in the base for moisture.
A concrete ceiling.
Walls and ceiling are packed in Recticell PUR hard heat insulation.

I started building walls,
the studs are standing on reconstructed rubber strips of 1cm thickness.
(1st mistake, studs should be screwed/fixed to the floor.
I held them up with neoprene pads of 2,5cm squished between stud and ceiling.
(2nd mistake, some of them are too squished and could be flanking paths)
Walls

IMG_6188resize600.jpg

I made a double window to the outside world , different thickness glass layers, about 20cm air gap.
The outside window is fix, the inside can be opened to vent the air gap between the walls.

IMG_6189resize600.jpg

So, the walls have between 15 and 20cm air gap.
80 to 90% filled with knauf mineral wool ecose.
Varying thicknesses are used, from 100mm to 160mm) (I was able to buy overstock from a roof contractor for a good price.)
https://www.knauf.com/en/products-and-r ... eral-wool/

Then I put a moisture screen on the walls.
and after a layer of fermacell 12,5mm thick, 12kg/m2.
https://www.fermacell.com/fermacell_gyp ... d_1236.php

Then I started building the ceiling.
Structurally its made with finnjoist I-beams.
https://www.metsawood.com/global/Produc ... joist.aspx
On top of the beams is a layer of fermacell.
(3d mistake maybe?)
So from top to bottom the ceiling is
- concrete ceiling
- PUR hard isolation panels
- 1-2cm air gap
- fermacell
- I-beam
So no mineral wool in the ceiling .... I didn't wanna loose any more height from the ceiling.
As it is now I still have 2m85.

IMG_6269resize600.jpg

IMG_6377resize600.jpg

IMG_6190resize600.jpg

This is the double window between control room and musicians room.
- detail of the double window / ceiling

IMG_6286resize600.jpg

IMG_6190resize600.jpg

IMG_6378resize600.jpg

I got these panels for free from somebody and hope I can use them to make absorption panels.
Maybe somebody has other ideas ?
They're 6cm deep, 250cm on 120cm big.
- Wooden panels

IMG_6374resize600.jpg

Also I could get for free 120m2 of this material
https://www.rockfon.com/products/rockfon-sonar
I can't find much technical information on the site but I'm wondering if it's a useful material for tuning my room?

My goal is to tune this room best possible with the materials I have, which is more mineral wool in varying thickness, the rockfon material maybe, the wooden panels, I have fireproofed black cloth, I have two massive doors,
Since my budget is very limited I don't expect to get it perfect, but hopefully very usable to make some good recordings of various bands ... from pop to rock.

The whole barn is about 10m x 6m, without any walls.
Divided into control room and musician room.

CONTROLresize600.jpeg

MUSICresize600.jpeg

Oh, I made some skyline diffusers before I read here they're problematic for small rooms.

IMG_6186resize600.jpg

[Gregwor]

And I found a nice way of resizing images for the forum:

With an Apple computer, you can just do it in Preview. Go "Tools" --> "Image Size". Type 1200 pixels for your largest dimension. Save it. If it's still larger than 500KB, Save As as JPEG and move the quality slider down as little as possible. It should jump to way less than it's original file size. Simple, fast, and free!

Also, for 2D SketchUp renders, export them as ~4000px, then follow the same steps as above.

Okay, sorry for not following the rules.
Finally found some time to do this properly.
(And I found a nice way of resizing images for the forum:
http://www.gad.net/Blog/2017/01/18/batc ... automator/)

So, the progress....

I have a concrete floor 20cm thick.
Old brick walls 30cm thick, injected in the base for moisture.
A concrete ceiling.
Walls and ceiling are packed in Recticell PUR hard heat insulation.

I started building walls,
the studs are standing on reconstructed rubber strips of 1cm thickness.
(1st mistake, studs should be screwed/fixed to the floor.
I held them up with neoprene pads of 2,5cm squished between stud and ceiling.
(2nd mistake, some of them are too squished and could be flanking paths)

So your walls aren't anchored to the floor whatsoever?!?!?!

I made a double window to the outside world , different thickness glass layers, about 20cm air gap.
The outside window is fix, the inside can be opened to vent the air gap between the walls.

Desiccant is all you should need to control moisture in that cavity.

What thickness and type of glass did you use?

Then I started building the ceiling.
Structurally its made with finnjoist I-beams.

This is my second major concern (short of your walls not being anchored to the floor). According to your pictures, you just put the joists on edge up against the wall and fixed them to the wall with screws. This is terrifying. The joists should be sitting on top of your double top plates. The way you have it now, if I am seeing your pictures correctly, is totally wrong and very very unsafe!

On top of the beams is a layer of fermacell.
(3d mistake maybe?)
So from top to bottom the ceiling is
- concrete ceiling
- PUR hard isolation panels
- 1-2cm air gap
- fermacell
- I-beam

Looking at your pictures, I don't see the drywall, only the Recticel insulation. Also, what are the absorption coefficients for the Recticel? I couldn't find those values using Google.

How did you get drywall mounted and sealed above your joists?

So no mineral wool in the ceiling .... I didn't wanna loose any more height from the ceiling.
As it is now I still have 2m85.

If the Recticel actually has the ability to dampen sound, then this would maybe be alright. Otherwise, this is in fact pretty bad. A 1-2 cm air gap with no insulation, then only a single layer of drywall would perform very very very poorly.

Okay, sorry for not following the rules.
Finally found some time to do this properly.
(And I found a nice way of resizing images for the forum:
http://www.gad.net/Blog/2017/01/18/batc ... automator/)

So, the progress....

I have a concrete floor 20cm thick.
Old brick walls 30cm thick, injected in the base for moisture.
A concrete ceiling.
Walls and ceiling are packed in Recticell PUR hard heat insulation.

I started building walls,
the studs are standing on reconstructed rubber strips of 1cm thickness.
(1st mistake, studs should be screwed/fixed to the floor.
I held them up with neoprene pads of 2,5cm squished between stud and ceiling.
(2nd mistake, some of them are too squished and could be flanking paths)
Walls
Attachment:
IMG_6188resize600.jpg
IMG_6188resize600.jpg [ 118.28 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]


I made a double window to the outside world , different thickness glass layers, about 20cm air gap.
The outside window is fix, the inside can be opened to vent the air gap between the walls.
Attachment:
IMG_6189resize600.jpg
IMG_6189resize600.jpg [ 59.9 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]


So, the walls have between 15 and 20cm air gap.
80 to 90% filled with knauf mineral wool ecose.
Varying thicknesses are used, from 100mm to 160mm) (I was able to buy overstock from a roof contractor for a good price.)
https://www.knauf.com/en/products-and-r ... eral-wool/

Then I put a moisture screen on the walls.
and after a layer of fermacell 12,5mm thick, 12kg/m2.
https://www.fermacell.com/fermacell_gyp ... d_1236.php

Then I started building the ceiling.
Structurally its made with finnjoist I-beams.
https://www.metsawood.com/global/Produc ... joist.aspx
On top of the beams is a layer of fermacell.
(3d mistake maybe?)
So from top to bottom the ceiling is
- concrete ceiling
- PUR hard isolation panels
- 1-2cm air gap
- fermacell
- I-beam
So no mineral wool in the ceiling .... I didn't wanna loose any more height from the ceiling.
As it is now I still have 2m85.
Attachment:
IMG_6269resize600.jpg
IMG_6269resize600.jpg [ 46.31 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]

Attachment:
IMG_6377resize600.jpg
IMG_6377resize600.jpg [ 64.12 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]

Attachment:
IMG_6190resize600.jpg
IMG_6190resize600.jpg [ 98.39 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]


This is the double window between control room and musicians room.
- detail of the double window / ceiling
Attachment:
IMG_6286resize600.jpg
IMG_6286resize600.jpg [ 70.83 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]

Attachment:
IMG_6190resize600.jpg
IMG_6190resize600.jpg [ 98.39 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]

Attachment:
IMG_6378resize600.jpg
IMG_6378resize600.jpg [ 63.02 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]


I got these panels for free from somebody and hope I can use them to make absorption panels.
Maybe somebody has other ideas ?
They're 6cm deep, 250cm on 120cm big.
- Wooden panels
Attachment:
IMG_6374resize600.jpg
IMG_6374resize600.jpg [ 56.08 KiB | Viewed 4 times ]


Also I could get for free 120m2 of this material
https://www.rockfon.com/products/rockfo ... AndSamples
I can't find much technical information on the site but I'm wondering if it's a useful material for tuning my room?

Your link comes up with a 404 error. Sorry.

My goal is to tune this room best possible with the materials I have, which is more mineral wool in varying thickness, the rockfon material maybe, the wooden panels, I have fireproofed black cloth, I have two massive doors,
Since my budget is very limited I don't expect to get it perfect, but hopefully very usable to make some good recordings of various bands ... from pop to rock.

I'm sorry, but treating your room is the last thing you should be worried about right now. Your walls and ceiling are built incorrectly and are a major safety hazard. You need to address that immediately. Did you not get a building permit? If you did, what did the inspector say when he came to look at your framing? The permit and inspector is only in place to ensure safety. That is all.

Oh, I made some skyline diffusers before I read here they're problematic for small rooms.

I'm sure you could easily sell these on your local online buy and sell!

I hope I didn't bum you out. It's not too late to fix your problems.

Greg

[ward]

So your walls aren't anchored to the floor whatsoever?!?!?!

How could this be fixed? With L-brackets ? Or something else ?

Desiccant is all you should need to control moisture in that cavity.

Okay, the windows are what I had.

What thickness and type of glass did you use?

If I'm not mistaken, 6mm and 4+4with a foil in between.

This is my second major concern (short of your walls not being anchored to the floor). According to your pictures, you just put the joists on edge up against the wall and fixed them to the wall with screws. This is terrifying. The joists should be sitting on top of your double top plates. The way you have it now, if I am seeing your pictures correctly, is totally wrong and very very unsafe!

They fit into each other, then they are glued and screwed. It feels pretty sturdy. How would you fix it ?

Looking at your pictures, I don't see the drywall, only the Recticel insulation. Also, what are the absorption coefficients for the Recticel? I couldn't find those values using Google.

The drywall is there, Im showing in progress pics to better show the structure and the layers.
I have no idea about the absorption coefficient of this specific material.
For isolating sound I assume its about as good as just air ?
I found these generic numbers for building materials, 50mm PUR foam is on the 4th page.
http://www.acoustic.ua/st/web_absorption_data_eng.pdf

How did you get drywall mounted and sealed above your joists?

The drywall should be sealed to the joists.

If the Recticel actually has the ability to dampen sound, then this would maybe be alright. Otherwise, this is in fact pretty bad. A 1-2 cm air gap with no insulation, then only a single layer of drywall would perform very very very poorly.

Hmmm, I thought so, thats bad but I don't see how to fix that.

Your link comes up with a 404 error. Sorry.

Fixed it, thanks!

I hope I didn't bum you out. It's not too late to fix your problems.

Just a little but thats okay. Thanks for taking the time.

[Gregwor]

How could this be fixed? With L-brackets ? Or something else ?

If they are indeed sitting on some sort of rubber, you could try prying them up and removing the rubber. Then anchor the sill plate in a normal fashion. Ex: Tapcon

If I'm not mistaken, 6mm and 4+4with a foil in between.

If you only have 1 layer of 5/8" drywall, then the 6mm glass should be fine. I'm not sure what you mean by 4+4 with a foil though.

They fit into each other, then they are glued and screwed. It feels pretty sturdy. How would you fix it ?

The joists should be sitting on TOP of your walls so that the walls hold the weight properly.

If I were you, I'd saw the wall studs to the correct height, install two top plates and then rest the joists on top of them. Not a super easy fix, but not hard either.

The drywall is there, Im showing in progress pics to better show the structure and the layers.
I have no idea about the absorption coefficient of this specific material.
For isolating sound I assume its about as good as just air ?
I found these generic numbers for building materials, 50mm PUR foam is on the 4th page.
http://www.acoustic.ua/st/web_absorption_data_eng.pdf

Why didn't you use insulation batt that has some acoustic performance? A cheap fluffy pink insulation would have done the trick. Using this type of insulation would have allowed you to have a proper MSM gap between your outer leaf roof and your inner leaf drywall mass.

The drywall should be sealed to the joists.

How though? The way drywall is installed on TOP of joists, implementing John's inside out technique, is achieved by installing "modules" up into your joists. There's no other way to properly fasten the drywall to the top of your joists and ensure good sealing.

Hmmm, I thought so, thats bad but I don't see how to fix that.

Take down the drywall (which you will have to do anyway to fix your ceiling joist issue). Pull off the foam panel crap you have up there and fill that cavity with fibreglass insulation

Just a little but thats okay. Thanks for taking the time.

The contributing members of this forum aren't here to make you feel like a idiot or make you change your design for no reason. We are here to make sure you build your spaces safely, as cheap as possible while ensuring you get the results you're looking for! I just hope you're not type to tuck your tail between your legs and run off never to be heard from again. I hope you actually rectify any problems and continue to share your progress with us and ask for help. There are a ton of veteran studio designers that visit this site. It's crazy to have them look over your shoulder for free! I know I sure am grateful for them!

Greg

[ward]

If they are indeed sitting on some sort of rubber, you could try prying them up and removing the rubber. Then anchor the sill plate in a normal fashion. Ex: Tapcon

If I understand this right?, it seems impossible with the fermacell in place ? So it means tearing down the wall.
I don't have the budget to buy my drywall again.

If you only have 1 layer of 5/8" drywall, then the 6mm glass should be fine. I'm not sure what you mean by 4+4 with a foil though.

I have 1layer of 12,5mm fermacell, that's actually 15kg/m2, I mentioned 12kg/m2 before, that was wrong.
It's laminated glass, two layers of 4mm laminated with a thin flexible foil.
For example like this one .... (second page SR44.1)
https://www.guardianglass.com/cs/groups ... 031841.pdf

The joists should be sitting on TOP of your walls so that the walls hold the weight properly.

In Belgium its common practice to hang a floor like this ...
So, not on top, but hanging on the vertical studs.

15111618415284resize600.jpg

If I were you, I'd saw the wall studs to the correct height, install two top plates and then rest the joists on top of them. Not a super easy fix, but not hard either.

I'm afraid it's impossible to do without taking the ceiling down, which is glued, so the materials will be destroyed.

Why didn't you use insulation batt that has some acoustic performance? A cheap fluffy pink insulation would have done the trick. Using this type of insulation would have allowed you to have a proper MSM gap between your outer leaf roof and your inner leaf drywall mass.

1. stupidity
2. the PUR was put there some time ago to heat insulate the building, I didn't wanna lose height, and I didn't wanna take it off.

How though? The way drywall is installed on TOP of joists, implementing John's inside out technique, is achieved by installing "modules" up into your joists. There's no other way to properly fasten the drywall to the top of your joists and ensure good sealing.

It seems possible to me?, the drywall lies on top of the I-beams, you push it up and glue, drop it... and then make a seal from drywall to beam.

Take down the drywall (which you will have to do anyway to fix your ceiling joist issue). Pull off the foam panel crap you have up there and fill that cavity with fibreglass insulation

Taking down the drywall will mean destroying it, I don't have a budget to buy it again.

The contributing members of this forum aren't here to make you feel like a idiot or make you change your design for no reason. We are here to make sure you build your spaces safely, as cheap as possible while ensuring you get the results you're looking for! I just hope you're not type to tuck your tail between your legs and run off never to be heard from again. I hope you actually rectify any problems and continue to share your progress with us and ask for help. There are a ton of veteran studio designers that visit this site. It's crazy to have them look over your shoulder for free! I know I sure am grateful for them!

I get that and I'm grateful for anybody's time and help offered,
doing it right from the start is the way to go.
Unfortunately I didn't.

What I can do is
- fixing my walls to the concrete floor without tearing off the fermacell.
- reinforce the connection between I-beams and the wall.
The loss of sound insulation caused by stupidity, I think I'm gonna have to live with that.

[Gregwor]

If I understand this right?, it seems impossible with the fermacell in place ? So it means tearing down the wall.
I don't have the budget to buy my drywall again.

You could maybe cut holes in the Fermacell where you would need the anchors then patch the holes after.

I have 1layer of 12,5mm fermacell, that's actually 15kg/m2, I mentioned 12kg/m2 before, that was wrong.

Formable looks like awesome stuff. Apparently there is a distributor on the other side of my country. I bet it's expensive though!

It's laminated glass, two layers of 4mm laminated with a thin flexible foil.
For example like this one .... (second page SR44.1)
https://www.guardianglass.com/cs/groups ... 031841.pdf

If you were using normal drywall, a third of 12.5mm would be just over 4mm. Since your using Fermacell that is pretty much 1.5 times as heavy, you'd need ~5.625mm of glass. So, your 8mm glass should be fine!

In Belgium its common practice to hang a floor like this ...
So, not on top, but hanging on the vertical studs.

Unfortunately you're basing your building practices off of the wrong side of the picture. The picture shows how you should have done your room, as an interior floor/ceiling joist on the left. It shows the joists sitting on top of the foundation/wall. On the right side of the picture, it shows a decking ledger fastened to the rim board. This is how you assumed you could do your ceiling joists. The difference between the ceiling joists and decking is that decks have multiple supports in the earth that allow the deck to have very short spans. Ceilings, on the other hand, do not.

I'm sorry, but you did it incorrectly/not safely.

I'm afraid it's impossible to do without taking the ceiling down, which is glued, so the materials will be destroyed.

That's a shame, but the way it is right now may/will fail any second and seriously injure you or someone. Since you clearly did not get a building permit, your insurance will not cover you. I believe, if you are one of the victims in the ceiling failure, your next of kin would be sued.

Again, combine the fact that your walls are not properly anchored with the fact that your entire ceiling is done incorrectly, this is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm actually scared for anyone who walks under your ceiling! You couldn't pay me enough to even step foot in there to disassemble it.

1. stupidity
2. the PUR was put there some time ago to heat insulate the building, I didn't wanna lose height, and I didn't wanna take it off.

I respect your contrition!

It seems possible to me?, the drywall lies on top of the I-beams, you push it up and glue, drop it... and then make a seal from drywall to beam.

Not how I'd do it, but okay.

Taking down the drywall will mean destroying it, I don't have a budget to buy it again.

Sadly, I think for safety reasons, you're going to have to do this anyway.

I get that and I'm grateful for anybody's time and help offered,
doing it right from the start is the way to go.
Unfortunately I didn't.

Again, I appreciate that you are recognizing the scope of the situation

What I can do is
- fixing my walls to the concrete floor without tearing off the fermacell.

- reinforce the connection between I-beams and the wall.

Redo this the correct way. Unless you can call your local inspector and get them to sign off on this, I don't think there's another way to resolve it.

The loss of sound insulation caused by stupidity, I think I'm gonna have to live with that.

Sadly, if you're not willing/able to change it, then that is the case. At least you know how you can fix it!

Greg

[ward]

In Belgium its common practice to hang a floor like this ...
So, not on top, but hanging on the vertical studs.

Unfortunately you're basing your building practices off of the wrong side of the picture. The picture shows how you should have done your room, as an interior floor/ceiling joist on the left. It shows the joists sitting on top of the foundation/wall. On the right side of the picture, it shows a decking ledger fastened to the rim board. This is how you assumed you could do your ceiling joists. The difference between the ceiling joists and decking is that decks have multiple supports in the earth that allow the deck to have very short spans. Ceilings, on the other hand, do not.

I'm sorry, but you did it incorrectly/not safely.

I'm sorry to go on about this, but here you see how the interior floor/ceiling was done in my house.

IMG_7515resize600.jpg

IMG_7573resize600.jpg

I hope it's clear the floor beams are hung on the wall, not on top of it.
Are you telling me this is a safety hazard ? I'm walking on that floor everyday.

[Gregwor]

I don't see fasteners on your build though! I see screws.

Fasteners.gif

As I mentioned before, ledgers are firmly anchored to rim board and then joists are fixed to the ledgers with fasteners.

That's the difference. If you don't use fasteners (like your build), your joists must sit on top of the wall.

Greg

[ward]

Please understand I have some resistance.
I'm thinking about how to take that ceiling down with the least damage to the materials,
maybe with two drywall lifts it could be done ...

[Gregwor]

I'm thinking about how to take that ceiling down with the least damage to the materials,
maybe with two drywall lifts it could be done ...

Hard to say, but if you do the math, you'll realize how much weight is up there. Drywall lifts around my area are typically only rated for around 300 pounds.

You may have to saw the drywall off in strips first.

Greg

[ward]

They're in strips of 1,2m on 5m, so that's 'only' about 100kg.