John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

congrats on restarting a 7 year old thread LOL

I think you're right though - a lot of modern style churches dont need a very live room - it depends on the nature of their music ministry mainly I think - the more traditional the more live and the more modern generally the'll want it a bit less live esp if they've got a large band with drums and electric instruments which most of the larger new ones have - intelligibility of the preaching is a major concern and those large old style churhes with stone walls which were great for choirs are not great for intelligibility of spoken word.

congrats on restarting a 7 year old thread LOL

Thanks! ! There's a reason for that: The comment I responded to appears to be from a drive-by troll, who pops in once a year or so, on average, and posts ungrounded, provocative comments for no apparent reason. He/she did it again recently, which is why I went back over the previous comments, and replied to some that needed it, such as this one, to set the record straight and hopefully prevent people from being mislead by incorrect "information" in the future.

Everything you said is spot on! I do a bit of acoustic and sound consulting work for churches, and I teach seminars for them, so it's an area where I have some familiarity. It's great to see someone else that gets it, too! The only thing I'd add is a response to this:

esp if they've got a large band with drums and electric instruments which most of the larger new ones have -

Even smaller churches these days have full contemporary worship groups with drums and electric instruments. I regularly come across churches with attendance in the range 50 - 100 people that have acoustic drums, electric guitars, bass, keyboards and suchlike. The "traditional" church with cathedral-like acoustics is fading. That's actually a pity, because for some types of music, that acoustic is fantastic... but it's also terrible for speech intelligibility. And since most people go to church to hear a message with spiritual substance to it, that can affect their lives positively, it's understandable that those people actually want to be able to understand the words, rather than just hear ringing, reverberant, honky, boomy noise that vaguely resembles human speech, but is totally unintelligible.


- Stuart -

wow - mental about the troll thing -

yes you're right - of course there's plenty of congregations with even 30 people who have a full band some times - and really if there's drums electric guitars and a congregation singing , and even kids playing and babies crying in the mix what engineer wants to deal live room acoustics on top of all that

What did you guys do in your church in the end, Bob? How did this work out?

It would be great if you could update the thread with actual results!


- Stuart -

What did you guys do in your church in the end, Bob? How did this work out?

It would be great if you could update the thread with actual results!

Sadly nothing as regards the traps themselves, and no acoustic treatment at all. The job became a nightmare in the end - I would come in and "things" would appear ( like a row of large glass windows about 2 feet behind the desk - thanks for that ) and the official opening got pushed forward by a month or two. I nearly lost my marbles ... but we did get a very nice stage designed with proper channels to the desk and I did the lighting too. In the end the acoustics took a very big back seat with people convincing themselves that it all sounded "fine" ... it reallly didn't sound that fine at all but anyway ... and of course a bathroom sounds "fine" if you say it does. As you may have guessed I attend a different church these days -

Ce la vie.

That's actually rather sad, but not uncommon at all. I see similar situations regularly, in the consulting and seminars that I do. So much so that I now made that the main part of the introductory session in the seminar. Pastors, elders, and deacons and other church leaders do tend to be there for that first session (perhaps just to show their faces), then skip the rest, so it made sense to put that up front. There's an interesting statistic that goes up on the screen, in digits the full height of the screen: 17%. That's the percentage of people that a typical church loses each year due to bad sound. Not because the room was a bit too hot or too cold, or because the stage lighting wasn't spectacular enough, or because of the color of the paint on the walls, or even because of doctrinal issues. Just due to bad sound alone. If pastors would be as concerned about getting the sound right as they are about the flower displays, or the decorations in the lobby, or the color of the carpet in the hallway, they might actually see larger numbers in their churches on a Sunday morning.

At the start of the seminar, I point out, in exactly the above terms, how important sound is. If the people in the congregation cannot clearly hear and understand the message that the pastor preaches, then all of that investment in beautiful buildings, wonderful lighting, comfortable seating, attractive decorations, etc. is totally worthless, and meaningless, and will produce exactly zero results. If people come in to the building expecting to be able to hear the words of the songs, and join in the singing, and hear the words of the message, so they can take them to heart, then they get VERY frustrated if the sound is too loud, too soft, unclear, garbled, or just plain unintelligible, which is how it is way too many churches. People will be far more upset by the inability to hear what the pastor says, than they will be due to ugly flowers, poor lighting, hard seats, or no artwork in the lobby. None of that matters at all.

I also point out that if the people can't hear his words clearly, then all the hours he spent carefully preparing the sermon are totally wasted, as are the years he spent in seminary, learning how to do it. It's all just a colossal waste of time if the message does not get understood, due to poor sound.

Your story is not atypical: it is the norm. In most churches, the people who actually do understand the issue, very frequently go unheard, or get ignored, or are overruled, or sidelined, because sound is not tangible, and the leadership does not have a clue how important it is. They can't look around the sanctuary and "see" how the acoustic panels are working to keep people coming back every Sunday. They can't boast about that to visitors, or point to the speakers and say "Just look at how those expensive, carefully chosen, carefully located, carefully aimed, carefully calibrated speakers make it possible for the congregation to hear exactly what the preacher is saying! Can't you just visualize it?". They don't get it, because sound cannot be seen, and neither can the effects of the sound design, or acoustic design. It's all just voodoo-like mystery for them, and since they cannot comprehend what it really means, or how important it actually is, they don't even want to listen to those who do know, and instead direct the funding elsewhere. A lovely stained glass window in the front wall is something they CAN boast about, and an attractive color-coordinated design of the matching carpets, drapery, and seat upholstery is visible, tangible, and looks nice, as does the warm, even, smooth lighting, and the nice geometric artwork on the hallway walls... but none od that will do a single thing to help people hear and understand the message! So the things that really matter get neglected, or even actively rejected, in favor of the things that don't. (What a sad metaphor for the spiritual lives of most people).

Just yesterday (Sunday) I spoke in a nearby church where it sounded like I was speaking down a fifty foot long concrete sewer pipe! The room has no soft surfaces at all, the FOH speakers are on the platform, right up against the front wall, in the corners (facing directly into the stage mics...), the console was set up with all the lows and mid range of the mics boosted, and the graphic equalizer was sporting a "smiley face"... I'm not sure how many of the 40 or so people there actually could clearly hear what I said, but I'm guessing that 17% of them were not happy... The worst thing is, I was the one who originally designed, spec'd, installed and calibrated that system, just 6 months ago! But after I left, the pastor and P&W leader decided that the sound system was interfering with the visuals of the room, and didn't look nice, so they changed it to make it better... !sigh!...

So I share your frustration, and I feel your pain. I've been there, and done that, and spoken to way too many sound volunteers, musicians, praise and worship leaders, and even some deacons and elders, that are in your (our) exact same situation. It hurts, and I'm not in the least surprised that you moved on. I would also not be in the least surprised if you told me that the congregation in that previous church has not grown much, or that it has even declined, or that the demographic has changed drastically from what it was, with very few middle-aged and older people.... And I bet the leadership in that church still can't fathom why the congregation is struggling, after all that money they "invested" in making the church "look so nice" . . .

Fortunately, in the church I attend, our pastor does "get it", and I'm one of the elders anyway, so things tend to get done a bit better. We do have a few dozen acoustic panels on the walls in key places (designed by me, of course!), I was able to select, position, aim and calibrate the speakers myself, I did extensive acoustic testing "before" and "after" and showed the real, tangible acoustic graphs to the other leaders, to demonstrate that it did work. And best of all, we got positive feedback from some elderly members of the congregation, who are pleased that they can hear the message, and participate. Even so, when I started switching the musicians over to personal monitoring (headphones and in-ear), I did get some push-back from the pastor... until he realized that with the stage monitors turned way down low, the sound in the congregation was even cleaner, and better understood, and quieter!

So our leadership is actually aware of the issues, and does take them into account. But it's a long, steep road to get to that point, finally convincing the "powers that be" that sound is more important than carpets or paint schemes- There's still "not enough budget" to do the rest of the things that I want to do, but at least it is acceptable.

I truly hope that the new place where you are now will be a better experience for you, and that your expertise will be taken into account, and put to good use!

Sorry about the rant! But I just wanted you to know that there are many, many people like yourself, equally frustrated, and equally saddened...


- Stuart -

I laughed out loud in a few places there - I mean we're only talking about the Word of God LOL it's would be nice to think people could hear it properly !! Romans 10:14
that 17% figure is freaky - it's not that surprising to be honest - we were in a food place lately with our family and we stayed for longer and orderd more food and drink - mainly because of the nice atmosphere - and I'd say at least 60 or 70% of the atmostphere came from the acoustics - same thing with churches - nasty rooms you just cant wait to get out of - and sadly reverberant cathedrals don't work anymore really - yes the new church I'm in is much better thanks