Page 3 of 3

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:29 pm
by Soundman2020
The layout looks reasonable. I think it should work OK. Very nice size, too! Half the house is your studio. Nice! :)
I understand the advantages of soffit mounting. But I'm considering the Barefoot MM27.
Soffit mounting the Barefoot is not a good idea due to the subwoofers design.
I would suggest asking Barefoot himself about that, but I'm pretty sure you are correct: With a side-firing sub in the box, I don't see any way that it could be soffit mounted, and I doubt that it would even benefit from soffit mounting: it isn't designed for that at all.
What happens if I want to soffit mount another pair of speakers to have another option?
You can do that, yes. In that case, you need to mount the two sets of speakers so that they are not in front of each other, and do not interfere with each other. I would arrange them with one set angled at, for example, 28° and the other at 35° (or whatever fits), taking care to avoid reflections from the surfaces of the set that is not soffit-mounted.
May be is incompatible to have the Barefoot MM27 and a second pair of monitors soffit mounted behind them due to the hard surfaces in the soffit, that will create reflections.
It's no different than just having an ordinary wall there: the effect will be exactly the same.

What I would do different from what you show in the picture, is to set up both sets vertically, not horizontally, for several reasons, but the main one being to be able to spread them wider more easily, to allow space for both sets.

Another is to have the soffit-mounted set a little higher than normal, and tilted down a few degrees, but that introduces a new set of issues, so that would have to be done very carefully...

- Stuart -

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:17 am
by molecula
The studio is half my house and half my life. At this moment my wife is ok with the plan, so let's keep on rocking :jammin:
I will be glad to see Barefoot commenting in this topic about the best front wall design for the MM27.

I'm not really sure if it will be good idea to compromise the design, introducing issues that will affect the final result.
If we make the design for a specific pair of monitors will be better than having 2 pairs of monitors with a lot of problems that will be imposible to resolve.

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:49 am
by molecula
the other thing that worries me is the height. I would like to achieve within L. W. Sepmeyer: 1: 1.14: 1.39 and have at least 100 cubic meters. According to my calculations that would be 5.7 meters long by 4.68 wide by 4.1 meters high. Currently I could accommodate the length and width, but the height that I have in this moment is 2.6 meters.

Will I have a substantial difference in the room acoustics if I raise the roof?
Is there any way to accomplish something similar without having to raise the roof?

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:44 pm
by Soundman2020
Will I have a substantial difference in the room acoustics if I raise the roof?
In general, higher is better: rooms with higher ceilings tend to sound better than rooms with low ceilings.
According to my calculations that would be 5.7 meters long by 4.68 wide by 4.1 meters high. Currently I could accommodate the length and width, but the height that I have in this moment is 2.6 meters. - Is there any way to accomplish something similar without having to raise the roof?
If you can't get to Sepmeyer-1 easily, then try some other ratios. Sepmeyer-1 is great, but it's bot the only good ratio: there are others closer to what you have, the will probably allow you to keep your ceiling at 2.6 without sacrificing too much space.

- Stuart -

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:59 am
by molecula
Stuart:
I'd rather go the safer route and raise the ceiling height. I would not do all this effort to be stuck under a mountain of standing waves.
Maybe it will take more time and money to achieve but rather pay the cost.

I have not received any response from Barefoot on preparing the front wall for his MM27 but I will continue the design with a single pair of monitors soffit mounted, because this way looks safer to me.

One question that arises regarding the soffit is whether the hard surface is somehow affecting the behavior of the modes of the room. Is the length of the room up to the isolation wall or up to the soffit hard shell?
I want to understand this before proceeding with the sketchup design, because the soffit hard shell will have a lot of mass.

The other question is about the part that is between the soffits. Should I continue with the hard surface, a slot resonator or a cloth panel with insulation?

And about angled walls and RFZ:
jhbrandt wrote: There is absolutely no way to figure what your modal activity might be or if the operator will end up in a pile of standing waves. The angles are excellent for eliminating flutter and creating an RFZ, but this can be accomplished with treatment - thin panels or slats with trapping behind. Have a look at some of John Sayer's slant/slat absorbers... there are many ways to do this. - Also his inside out walls are good for this - but again, I do not recommend splaying the hard shell. - Use that otherwise wasted space for trapping.
I'm thinking in the ceiling: should I go ahead with the idea of ​​tilting the walls and ceiling or is best to not splay it and use the space for acoustic treatment?

I think that to calculate the modal activity is easier to work with a rectangular room, but on the other side with angled walls the energy is divided between more room modes, so there is less energy in each room mode. Is better to have several properly spaced modes than having one that concentrates all the energy.
In addition, if I tilt the roof I will lose volume, and one of my goals is to reach 100m3 as recommended for a standard control room.
What is the option that assures me the best result?
I fear that if I make the wrong decision in this area I will finish with problems impossible to solve even with acoustic treatment.

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:18 am
by Soundman2020
I'd rather go the safer route and raise the ceiling height. I would not do all this effort to be stuck under a mountain of standing waves.
You'll have the standing waves anyway! There's nothing you can do to get rid of them: modes are a fact of life, due entirely to the dimensions of the room. Changing the dimensions does not get rid of modes: it just moves them to different frequencies. The objective is to ensure that the modes are spread around the spectrum evenly, without having several of them bunched up close to each other, and also without large gaps between adjacent modes.

But yes, overall, a higher ceiling is general better, since larger rooms have more modes in the low end, which is a good thing (usually).
I have not received any response from Barefoot on preparing the front wall for his MM27 but I will continue the design with a single pair of monitors soffit mounted, because this way looks safer to me.
Smart move! You can always play around with a second set on stands, once the room is built, and see if you can find a good place for them that does not interfere with the mains.

One question that arises regarding the soffit is whether the hard surface is somehow affecting the behavior of the modes of the room. Is the length of the room up to the isolation wall or up to the soffit hard shell?
Yes. The baffles (front hard surfaces of the soffits) do indeed become the new front wall of the room, so you need to take that into account in your mode calculations. Take an average.
The other question is about the part that is between the soffits. Should I continue with the hard surface, a slot resonator or a cloth panel with insulation?
I would go with either a hard surface or a deep absorber, depending on how much total absorption the room needs (sabins), and how easy it is to get that much from the other surfaces of the room.
I'm thinking in the ceiling: should I go ahead with the idea of ​​tilting the walls and ceiling or is best to not splay it and use the space for acoustic treatment?
For RFZ, you almost always need to angle at least the front section of the ceiling, and also splay the front section of the side walls. The only way to determine how much (what angle) is to do some ray-tracing.
I think that to calculate the modal activity is easier to work with a rectangular room, but on the other side with angled walls the energy is divided between more room modes, so there is less energy in each room mode.
Not really, no. Angling the walls doesn't have much effect on the total number of modes: axials simply become either tangentials or obliques, depending on which surfaces are angled, and how much. And there is not necessarily any less energy in a specific mode due to their being a larger or smaller number of modes: The energy in any specific mode is determined by what type of mode it is, and the characteristics of the room surfaces that affect that mode. The effect that each mode has on the room also depends on the position of the speakers and the listener. So it's no as simple as saying that more modes means less energy in each... not really true.
Is better to have several properly spaced modes than having one that concentrates all the energy.
Not really. See above. It is quite possible to have a room where there are 20 modes below 200 Hz that all hit 90 dB peak, while a smaller room might only have 10 modes that hit 90 db peaks, or it might have 10 that hit only 80, or it might have 5 that hit 80 and 5 that hit 100.... The total energy in the room is not "shared" between the modes: each mode has its own energy profile, that is governed mainly by the location of the speakers with respect to the mode pattern, the materials that the affected surfaces are made of, and how they are treated acoustically. Since modes are a resonant issue, each one can have peaks higher than the total average energy put into the room.... :) (That one really confuses people, until you think about it....) so it is possible for your speakers to be putting out 85 dB SPL, but one (or more) modes to be showing levels above 90 db... :)
In addition, if I tilt the roof I will lose volume,
You only need to tilt part of the ceiling: just the section that causes first reflections to reach your ears.... And the space you "lose" inside the room can be put to good use outside the room, such as for your HVAC ducts and silencers, for example.... You have to lose space for them anyway, so you might as well lose it intelligently...
and one of my goals is to reach 100m3 as recommended for a standard control room.
Weeeellll.... There isn't really any such standard! If you check ITU, EBU, AES and other specs for control rooms, you'll only find minimum and maximum suggested ranges, based on floor area and volume. Minimum recommended floor area for normal stereo listening, according to both AES and EBU is 30 m2, while ITU says 20 m2. None of them specifies room volume as such. What they do specify is a series of equations that will lead you to a set of optimum volumes for any given floor area.

Perhaps you are confusing the "standard" volume with the "reference" volume for RT calculations? That does, indeed, use a reference volume of 100 m3, but that is simply a mathematical necessity: there has to be SOME point of comparison, and 100m3 happens to be a nice round number. It isn't an actual recommendation for an ideal room volume: just a reference. In fact, the ONLY mention of 100 m3 room volume is in section 8.3.2 of the ITU spec, where its ONLY use is in order to determine the optimum RT times of any REAL room, using an equation that takes the 100m3 volume as the point of reference.

To get that for a 20m2 room, the ceiling would have to be 5m high...

So, just as the SPL scale uses 0.000022 pascals as the arbitrary reference point, so to do the Tm scales use 100 m3 as the arbitrary reference volume. They could just as easily have chosen 50m3 or 200 m3, but it turned out to be 100 m3. Personally, I don't know of any studios that are designed specifically to have exactly 100 m3 of volume.... Most designers here on the forum would tell you that 50 m3 is plenty for a good studio, and that you can even get by with much less than that if you have to.

As long as you have a decent floor area, and the dimensions all meet the three basic room dimension equations, then all you need to do is to take the Tm equation and use that to figure the optimum RT for each frequency band, using the hypothetical 100m3 as the reference.

Besides, if you make your control room 100 m3 volume, then your live room needs to be about 500 m3 volume.... I don't think you have enough room for that! :shock:
What is the option that assures me the best result?
Studio design is all about compromise: LR vs. CR, sight lines vs. speaker positions. Ratios vs. practicality. Form vs. function. And everything vs. budget! Some times it takes me days, weeks even, to fiddle around with all the bits and pieces just to find a basic layout that works, and can then be tweaked. It's not just the rooms themselves: there are also issues like HVAC, windows (sight lines), doors (no clashing), access paths, work flow, equipment location, cable lengths, treatment, etc. There are so many things that you need to consider that most people just don't even have on their radar, until they get started. For example, your basic layout is fine, but if you rotate your CR 90° (give or take) and re-arrange the rooms, you could have a direct view of the CR through a window between the soffits, and a partial view of the booth through an angled side window, instead of having to rotate your head 90° left, 90° right all the time to see what is going on! You'll end up with neck-ache pretty quick like that, in a fast,paced dynamic session....
I fear that if I make the wrong decision in this area I will finish with problems impossible to solve even with acoustic treatment.
Yep. Very true. That's why it is important to think through everything, and try out multiple possible layouts, then tweak each of the best few to see what makes the most sense.

As a very wise designer often says: "Studio building is 90% design, 10% construction"....

- Stuart -

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:08 am
by molecula
Stuart,
I just realized that you are now an administrator, CONGRATULATIONS!
your selfless contributions always caught my attention since I joined the forum.

I'll keep the idea of ​​raising the ceiling height. At the end will be a matter of money of course.
I will also go ahead with the idea of ​​a RFZ control room with all that this implies, using the ray tracing method to determine the angles, absorption, etc.
Now I understand a little more about the volume of the room and I'll play around with the location of the control room to see advantages and disadvantages.
These are the options that come to mind:
Option 1
Positive: -Direct view of the live room and the booth from the control room (less neck-ache)
-Direct view between live room and booth (musicians are less far apart between them)
Negative: -If a person goes out the studio (going to bathroom/kitchen/smoking or something else) must cross the live room and the booth and viceversa to return.
Option-1.jpg
Option 2
Positive: - Direct view of the live room from the control room (less neck-ache)
Negative: -Musicians are far apart between them when using the booth and the live room
-More neck-ache because the booth is in the back of the control room

Better than Option 1 is that If a person goes to the bathroom must cross only through the booth.
Option-2.jpg
Option 3 This is my original idea
Positive: - better use of space, bigger rooms sizes
Negative: -neck ache due to live room and the booth at the sides
-Musicians are far apart between them when using the booth and the live room

Better than Option 1 is that If a person goes to the bathroom must cross only through the booth.
Option-3.jpg
I love option 1. I discarded it a while ago because of the problem of having to interrupt when someone has to enter or exit the studio. But maybe that's not so bad, people will normally concentrate on the job and normally they are side by side with me glued to the computer monitor, and they don't want to loose time going to the bathroom. Furthermore, we are not always recording. I have more musicians coming with recorded projects in their own homes and we are dedicated just to mix.
Maybe is worth paying that price in relation to the benefits.

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:19 am
by molecula
another point in favor of option 3 is that the isolation between the booth and the live room is greater because they are far apart

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:19 am
by Soundman2020
Stuart,
I just realized that you are now an administrator, CONGRATULATIONS!
your selfless contributions always caught my attention since I joined the forum.
:oops: Thanks for the kind words. The Admin thing is a surprise that John sprung on me a few weeks back. Both humbling and also an honor, I guess. I'm just trying to not play with the controls too much, so I don't cause any harm! :)
If a person goes out the studio (going to bathroom/kitchen/smoking or something else) must cross the live room and the booth and viceversa to return.
Not necessarily: you could put in a couple more doors, to provide alternative paths. In fact, that's a good idea for safety, too: in the event of an emergency, it's nice to have another way to get out!
Musicians are far apart between them when using the booth and the live room
Yep. That's a big problem. I would go with the other option plus more doors.
I love option 1.
Yup! Me too! :)


- Stuart -

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:24 am
by molecula
Stuart:
Here in this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =0#p123456 you recommended to center the speaker at 2/5 of the width of the soffit front panel.
You are talking about centering the speaker box or the acoustic axis of the speaker?
I make this question because I'm considering the ATC SCM150 ASL for main monitors, and they take the acoustic axis at the mid frequency driver that is not located at center of the box width.

Thanks

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:34 pm
by Soundman2020
Right. Always with reference to the acoustic axis of the speaker, not the geometric center.

2/5 doesn't need to be spot on, either. Just like the 38% "rule", it's just a guideline.

- Stuart -

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:02 am
by Scavneck
Soundman2020 wrote:Right. Always with reference to the acoustic axis of the speaker, not the geometric center.

2/5 doesn't need to be spot on, either. Just like the 38% "rule", it's just a guideline.

- Stuart -
2/5 as in two fifths? And is it towards the centre or towards the side walls?

Re: Molecula Studio design phase

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:26 pm
by Soundman2020
2/5 as in two fifths?
Correct. But that isn't a "law of the universe!" It's just a good starting point. To find the optimum position, you really should do the calculations or run a simulation. And there are other factors that might change the location, too.
And is it towards the centre or towards the side walls?
It doesn't really matter, acoustically, but there are usually practical reasons for preferring one over the other in most studios.

- Stuart -