I don't expect you to understand...

[giles117]

I believe in god - he believes in me - no bible, no religion, no additional belief systems required.

The Real purpose of the bible is to merely give you a more complete knowledge of him and to understand what he really wanted for mankind.

I've read all the books and no religion has ever convinced me that you need some go-between like Jesus or Buddah between you and god. You can still find god without reading the bible - in fact I would suspect the bible has caused more people to NOT find god than it has people find god.

Yes you can find God without the bible. True believers in God can lead you to god without cracking the book open. And I know for a certainty that religious peopeles use of the Bible has turned many a person away from god.

More people have killed in the name of god that have not IMHO. It happens everyday in Iraq.

Both Mohammud and Jesus taught forgiveness if you are to believe the books written about them - NOTE - they didn't write them, others did after they died.- yet I don't see any forgiveness from the christians, nor the Islamics. Abraham taught Thou shalt not kill yet both christians and muslims believe in Abraham as a prophet yet once again they are out there killing each other.

James had an answer for that....

James 3:1-3

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.


The hypocrisy of it is that people still live old testament lives even though Jesus Came to set the record straight.

The Old testament was about living a strick, better not mess up or you're dead lifestyle. But it had to be included to show how patient God was with Israel. Everytime he gave them something or protected them from something they spit in his face and turned their backs to him till they needed something else.

Because they continually rejected God, God did what any person would do, he turned his back on them, but in his infinite love for them, he still provided a way for them to be brought back into right standing with him, but again they spit in his face, so he opened his saving grace up to every man. Of course it was always available to whomever chose to trust in him. Rahab the harlot in the book of Joshua, The Shunamite woman in I Kings and so on.

If people lived according to the cause of Christ instead of their own lusts who would have time to kill. But because we allow ourselves to be consumed by our own lusts, this is what we have. Death and destruction.

Back to the Commandment.

I John 3:23

And this is his(God's) command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Jesus is the go between for salvation. That is his job only because when Goid dealt with man directly he kept spitting in God's face and chasing other gods. To protect man from His Wrath, God sent his son to die for us to be that go between for salvation, once he is accepted, you then have the right to approach God face to face.

Romans 8:14-17 says it this way

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


See courtesy of Christ's Death we are made heirs of God, What heir do you know needs a go between? None and after acceptance of his son, we can go before him and KNOW for a fact that he responds to our needs concerns and cares.

Bryan Giles

I Pray as we continue to build studios that the revelation of God's Saving grace and eternal love for us is revealed to all who read this thread.

[John Sayers]

There you go again Bryan- you can only see god through the bible - what would you be doing if you hadn't been brainwashed by it?? would he still be there?? of course he would.

cheers
john

[giles117]

Well If I am brainwashed then I am guilty of Romans 12:2

Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing (brainwashing) of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I am more interested in pleasing God and being in his perfect will for my life than wondering what life would be like without knowing him or his character.

If I had never done some brainwashing where studio construction is concerned, there would still be mixes done by me but they would not be of the quality that I seek in my own personal space.

So Yes I chose to brainwash myself with the Bible. Romans 10:17 Says:

So then faith Comes by Hearing and Hearing (attentively listening) by the word of God.

the Bible is his Word. thousands of man hours during the early years of the church were put into the accuracy of the bible. We call it the Canon of Scripture.

I seek to please God, not man.


Psalms 118:6 says:

The Lord is On My Side, I WILL NOT FEAR: What can man do against me?

Psalms 91:7

1000 may fall at my side and 10,000 by my right hand but it shall not come near my dwelling..

Why??

Because I have sought to please him.

How would I truly know his character had I not sought to study who he is and what he is all about?

Nah... He'd Still be here, but it is also written in Hosea 4:6

My People are destroyed for a lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, i will also reject thee.

Well I'd rather have knowledge of who My God is and not be guessing or just having some general acceptance of his existence, just as I have taken the time to further my knowledge every day here on this Studio Design Site.

These 2 things are valuable to me so I Brainwash myself every day with God's Word and this Studio design site and all other additional resources that are available to me.

And John as I concurred with Barefoot....

The Heavens and all creation show forth God and his majesty through his works....

Bryan Giles

[John Sayers]

The Heavens and all creation show forth God and his majesty through his works....

now that I can agree with :)

cheers
John

[cadesignr]

Whew! Can I go home now please?

[Eric Best]

Wow, this reminds me of a Thursday night. Me and all of my musician friends meet every Thursday night, they meet at 7:30 for a bible study and I come over at about 9 when the brainwashing is over (that's what I tell them and they know I'm kidding and so should all of you) and we drink beer for the rest of the night. And of course having previously been a science teacher for 10 years we naturally come back around to this and a great fun with the argument. There are two rules, no explainations based on faith and no scripture quoting (I can't quote Darwin either)

These rules make for more creative thinking for both sides.

To use studio design as an analogy:

Accept that F. Alton Everst (old testament) is God and Tom Hidley is Jesus (I know John belives the second to be true) and that John being a good little disciple has written his religious works (the Recording Handbook). Now, we also have Phillip Newell who is also a disciple of Tom Hidley and has written his books. We will refer to the followers of this group as the Hidlians. There are two sub sects called the Phillipians and the Sayerists.
The Sayerists and Phillipians agree on most things but have some minor differences (such as, do I use sliding glass door or window) so they feel each other are good people but in some ways are a little odd.

Now the Altons believe only in the original book and are still waiting for the great wise one to come along. They look upon these others as upstarts, it pains them that some of their great writings are questioned. While these other things might have some merit the Altons are still looking for the truth and their savior.

A little later comes along the evil Auralexians who both the Hidlians and the Altons find evil even though the Auralexians say that have very similar ideas but have evolved in a superioir way based on the Prophet Eric Smith and the first disciple Curt Foster. But the Auralexians worship at altar of foam (which is a violation of the 125hz commandments) so they are inherently evil.

(this whole thing is getting way out of hand, but I'm on a roll).

We also have other splinter groups such as the Life End after Deaders (led by the propets Davis and Davis) and the Ethanianans, sometimes known as "The Church of the Bass Trap" and dare I forget the Knights of the Fly who pray at the altar of the USG.

Even though all can be traced back to the same "god" there is great dissention between them.

That being said:

This covers about 70% of studio design philosophies (that I know of, please add if you know of others).

Back to the topic at hand.

Assuming you are a Sayerist (aren't we all), a person asked you a question about acoustics and your response is to quote the Recording Manual, they ask you another question and you again quote the Recording Manual. This is repeated ad infiniteum and stated as the Absolute Truth. This does nothing to add to the growth and learning of the giver of information and only makes the student search for a different teacher who is not so limited with their information source or their ability to reason for themselves(John, this is no negative crack on the the Recording Manual because it is the Absolut Truth )

This is why quoting scripture is not the way to entice the non beliver (they keep giving me beer, but that hasn't worked yet either, but I tell them not to give up). Quoting scripture also does nothing to strenthen ones own belief or to sway the non believer when being used as an argument, thus the rule of not quoting scripture. (I am jokingly referred to as the heathen, and I think they only love me for my recording skills)

When you bring faith into the argument, the arqument is over, because faith can not be debated so we will have none of that nonesense.

My friend Andy says that he has learned a considerable amount about his faith and God based on these debates with these rules, but he also says that if I ever become a Christian any of his slightest doubts of the existance of God and Jesus as his son will be erased forever.

So continue in good "faith" with the debate, you might wish to consider these rules to add to learning experience and not to take offense to anything that is not intended to be so (I don't think anyone who posts here would do that).

Sorry for my ramblings

Eric

[knightfly]

"dare I forget the Knights of the Fly who pray at the altar of the USG. " - Kinda wish you woulda... 'sides, that's only when ppls ask about USG's stuff - I figger who better to ask about milk than a cow...

All in all, Eric, pretty funny stuff - so how much beer was that doin' the talking?

Only way to argue faith that I know of - "I believe." "No, you don't" "Yes, I do." "Prove it." "I believe." "OK, you win..."

[cadesignr]

The only thing I can add to this, is its amazing, this bbs is built on faith. In you guys. Hmmm.

[John Sayers]

Eric - that was beautiful - I can relate to all that :D....... if beer makes you write like that - have one on me

You know......... I've never read Alton's or Phillips books, I read the personal experience of living with Dean Jensen for 3 weeks in '74 where we argued and debated the principles behind Tom's rooms. Dean just quietly let me work it out for myself. I've done that ever since. We can theorise forever but to design it, build it and finally experience it....... is the only way I know.

Same with my attitude to god

cheers
John

[giles117]

Eric

I Love your analogy... and you have desribed the Modern Day church pretty well.

We have so many denominations built on mis-interpretations of the bible, or one guy grabbed one scripture ran with it and built a whole doctrine on it.

Me I just study it in it's entirety. That which I do not readily understand, I dig deeper, just like acoustics, when you guys tell me something I don't understand, i pull out all those old reference materials and study till It makes sense.

And yes for some quoting scripture will never lead them to Christ.

I Like what one man said years ago, for some your life is the only "testament" they will see.

I could never say I have lived such a pure life, but when I decided to turn my face back to God, I watch life become effortless for me.

There is a certain "rest" we get when we seek after God and his ways.

Ooops, I gotta quote one scripture.

But seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these THINGS shall be added unto you.

I Have watched so many christians get blessed then leave God. just like the isrealites. then when they hit tuff waters they wanna run back. I did the same. But when I found out that not leaving him means more blessings. Peace, Health, Joy, etc... I chose to never turn my back again.

I have watched God take a seemingly horrendous situation and turn it around for my good because i was faithful to trust in him and lean on him.

May make me brainwashed, but my fruit shows he is real.

Bryan Giles

[Eric Best]

Bryan, (see I spelled your name right this time)

I am one that turns a deaf ear to quoting scripture, but when people talk about how their religion makes them feel, and the inner support that their belief in god gives them to help them through their life I'm all for it. My family had a bad experience with our church when I was young and I've been kind of jaded towards organized religion ever since.

Steve,

No implication with the USG, it just kind of popped into my head. Hey, you're the first one I talked to on the bulliten board at RO that actually knew what a sabine was. You had also written off the the people at HR as "still thinking that putting up egg cartons is sound proofing" and I said there's this guy over there named John Sayers that seems to know what he is talking about, so you gave it a try, and the rest is history.

John,

You should give both of those books a read, just to clarify you what you know, kind of like all Christians should read the Koran and all Muslims should read the Bible. Everest's book is a pretty easy read and you can get it on Amazon for about $30 US. Phillip Newell's books are a bit more and a little more work to read, but also have good stuff in them. They probably won't change your design philosophy but more of re-affirm what you are doing.

Being a coach I like to have other coaches look at my athletes from a different perspective it helps me learn, even though I know everything

Eric

[barefoot]

I guess you can tell that I like a good philosophical debate. I was hoping, however, that things would be a little meatier. Some of you might be skilled at arguing the particular details and interpretations of your religion, but you don't seem to be accustomed to arguing its fundamental validity.

I read everyone's posts carefully, but none of the biblical quotes and admissions of faith offered address the basic questions I am raising. For your arguments to hold any weight, one must agree with your basic premise that the universe is indeed created and governed by an omnipotent creator god. I don't agree with this premise.

I could claim, for example, that I wrote the novel Ulysses, that everything in the book is completely true, and that I deserve all the royalties since its publication. Now, if I hired any of you "lawyers" here to argue my case, you would be in imminent danger of being fired if all you could come up with are arguments based quotes from the book.

• "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, listen to this!
  
  "Woodshadows floated silently by through the morning peace, from the stairhead seaward where he gazed. Inshore and further out the mirror of water whitened, spurned by lightshod hurrying feat, the white breast of the dim sea. The twining stresses, two by two, a hand plucking the harp strings merging their twining cords. Wavewhite wedded words shimmering on the dim tide."
  
  Surely this must be a true story, for how could such beauty of words and vividness of description be the product of someone's imagination? And surely my client must have wrote this, because everyone just knows that he is a brilliant human being!"

No, this sort of argument certainly wouldn't fly. You would need to point out evidence beyond the text of the book. You might believe that I wrote Ulysses, but the jury doesn't. You need to bring in physical evidence - names, dates, places, and witnesses. You need to prove that the mountain of evidence indicating that James Joyce wrote the book is false. You need to prove that both historical and present evidence clearly supports my claim above all others.

So, before we get into the merits of your particular religious interpretations, you need to give me some compelling evidence that world is indeed governed by who and what you claim. Otherwise, you might as well be quoting Ulysses - beautiful and poetic fiction. Prove to me that the laws of physics break down without your god in the equations. Prove to me that your god is the originator of the emotion of love, and that love and all other emotions are not abstract phenomena that emerge, like ripples on a pond, from complex physical systems. Prove the absolute necessity of your god in explaining anything.... ???

Bible quotes, purported miracles, and "If you felt what I felt, you would believe what I believe." arguments aren't compelling - or even very interesting. I think I'd rather just drop out of the discussion if these are all you have. It's not a debate. It's just unsubstantiated evangelism.

Come on guys. Were's the beef!!???

Thomas

[cadesignr]

Beef? I for one am not trying to convert you. Ha, that is impossible, for you are a scientist. And my replies are only intended to state my belief. You want substantiation. Proof.
Beef. Ther is no beef. Not that will induce you to change you view. And frankly, I don't care one way or another. The real issue here is FAITH.
What part of "faith" don't you understand. There is NO proof.
Only trust. Beef is for the non believer. Proof is for scientists. I need no beef. Just as I need no beef from from this bbs. I trust your word. I or others do not have the education, training and experience to doubt you. Do you not want people to trust your word and your mathimatics. Or you John, your experience. If you think people come here for fun, you are mistaken. Well, sometimes. What they do come here for is trust in your answers, which you back up with your training, experience, and education. Which translates to us having Faith. Faith and trust. Otherwise, this bbs means nothing. So why do you think people should not have other faiths. We ask for no beef from you. Because we have faith. Otherwise, we would not come here.
Hmmm, I wasn't going to continue, cause this is usually a dead end street. But noooooo, I have to open my mouth again. You fool Rick

[barefoot]

....We ask for no beef from you. Because we have faith. Otherwise, we would not come here.
Hmmm, I wasn't going to continue, cause this is usually a dead end street. But noooooo, I have to open my mouth again. You fool Rick.

No, see this is great stuff! I think you sort of stumbled into it Rick , but this is exactly the kind of thing that addresses my points!

You say you have faith that the moderators here provide good information about studio design, construction, acoustics, speakers and such. Why? What if you tried putting our advice into practice and it didn't work very often? Would you still have much faith in us? And just because you have faith in us, does that mean that the information given in other sources is wrong?

See where I'm going with this? Certainly Christianity, or any other religion I am aware of, doesn't show much history of "working". And clearly the Bible does not work as any viable roadmap to the history and workings of the physical universe. Even in the realm of human affairs, Christianity has a rather spotty track record. So, why the faith?

An even if you insist that Christianity does somehow "work", despite all it flaws. Why would you dismiss other religions? Certainly Christians have no corner on happiness, or sadness, peace, or war. The track record of other religions is at least as good, and bad, as Christianity. Why don't you grant them any faith?

Thanks for addressing my question!

Thomas

[cadesignr]

Christianity has a rather spotty track record. So, why the faith?

I place no faith in christianity. In fact, I feel as though as a religion, they should be ashamed. Especially the Catholic sect. My faith is in my heavenly father. Who is Jesus Christ.
Not Christianity. That is a labled set of people who profess to believe in the word of Christ. And the bible, as set forth as the documented word of god, and Jesus, and other human beings. My faith is not based on other humans word. Only the actions of god in my life. THAT my friend, is the only proof I need.