Ro's Rehearsal/studio rooms. [stage: build]

[Ro]

Yeah, I believe Stepisol is called ISOFIX here in the Netherlands.
In this photo it's the green stuff on the wall (yup, photo of my OLD studio walls )

[AndreasB]

I dunno, this is what it looks like in sweden.

http://www.team-et.se/swedish/bygg.htm

best

a

[Ro]

exactly the same stuff !


Funny cuz I've used it so elevate my current studio control room (as seen on photo, me and my bandmate at the other side of the glas )
I've put a layer of Isofix/Stepisol on the floar and floated a 15mm MDF floor ontop, finished with some carpet.

Recently I opted the same technique on a improvised drumriser and a basscabinet riser, it does the trick well. Much more detailed sound now! (less low vibrations through flanking, less tremors)

Have considered to use that same technique again with the new floors I'm planning. (It's less work than building a complete floated floor, but evenly expensive)
Anybody have an idea on this?

[Eric_Desart]

The exact generic name for this stuff is rebonded, bonded or agglomerated foam.
There are posts about this stuff in the forum here.

It's made from grinded scraps from polyesters and polyethers, compressed to higher densities.
A lot of those things have very poor fire properties, hence one should check that.

[Ro]

True, it's not really fire proof
That's exactly why our current setup didn't pass fire code
(and another reason for total demolision.. )

That stuff has to be preperated in order to pass code. Hmm, gonna think on that one.
Thanks for the input, especially on this link:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... rated+foam

[Ro]

I'm still not sure what to do with the floors. But we'll get there.
Meanwhile I had some engineers come over to check my current building state and make me an offer for an accoustic measurement (to see where the weakspots are, and to keep the covernment pleased)

One of them noted something interesting about my roof. It's a single layer of wood directly on top of the building with tar on top of the wood (on the outside. dunno if tar is the right word here. it's roof finishing) He told me that attaching insulation directly underneath the roof (ON the wood) wasn't according to code. He noticed I had insulation materials attached on it.
It's be'coz of moisture that there should be a few inches of space between, just to ventilate.

I forgot to ask if it's okay to add wood or gypsym or whatever. (to add mass)
Have to check that out, else I have to redraw my roof plans
(and have less mass on the outer leaf)

* The picture ain't all to clear, but this is the roof on floor2 from the inside

[Ro]

Right,
Have been thinking about the floors a lot and decided to semi-float them with agglofoam (to cut flanking to existing floor). Atleast the floors on the 2nd and 3rd floor of the building.

It'll look something like the attached picture. Dunno which density of foam I've gotta get. Have to do calculations.... dunno dead load yet (yeah I know). Gonna get to that the next days. Still, if I know the dead and expected live load I still don't know how to choose the right density. Could not find much info on that regarding to the mentioned foam.

Eric, you've got some info on that?

ro.

[camistan]

Ro,
Is the underlayment under your floor a "soft" or "hard" material? Reason I ask is because we just finished an office in my basement next to my studio. We put a laminated floor in the office with a "soft" type underlayment (made for hardwood/laminated floors) under it. It doesn't "walk" well at all! There are some areas where you can feel the floor "give in" a little bit when you walk on it. This concerns me because I'm wondering if the laminated sheets will start to "buckle" when weight is added to them. The underlay material I used is suppose to help "quite" the floor. I'm wondering if the guys who put it in ran the underlayment perpendicular to the laminated sheets and it's possibly "giving in" where 2 different underlayment pads meet. This stuff may be made for Pergo (thicker) hardwood floors. When I do my studio I'm looking into having a "hard" surface under my laminated flooring along with butyl sheeting below that.
Check this post out if you like concerning this:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4845

Here's a post where Rod gives some good tips on flooring/prepping:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... e&start=45

Lastly, here's a link about a subfloor system that could be used under a laminated floor. (Check out the installation video)

http://www.subflor.com/ADVANCE/home.asp

UPDATE:
Uhhhhhh...The product in the link above may not be good for studio purposes...check this post out...

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6712

Anyway, just something to pass on so you or someone else won't make the same mistake I did

[Ro]

Thanx for the links stan, have read them. I've done flooring before and always used the green hard boards.

The picture above shows the (hard) board type (semi soft) underlayment under the finished floor. The green agglofoam, however, is SOFT foam. But there will be a MDF subfloor on top of that to have mass and a smooth floor (sub).

The Green board is just to keep the floor leveled and preventing "rattle" (wood on wood) and noise free (and stop some flanking, altho not much. that's what the agglofoam is for)

[Eric_Desart]

Thanx for the links stan, have read them. I've done flooring before and always used the green hard boards.

The picture above shows the (hard) board type (semi soft) underlayment under the finished floor. The green agglofoam, however, is SOFT foam. But there will be a MDF subfloor on top of that to have mass and a smooth floor (sub).

The Green board is just to keep the floor leveled and preventing "rattle" (wood on wood) and noise free (and stop some flanking, altho not much. that's what the agglofoam is for)

Even the lowest 60 kg/m3 bonded foam is acoustically rather dense (not mechanically) for just a topfloor in MDF (but better than fiberglass or rockwool).
I have this data somewhere in my archives.
This is measured by the Belgian WTCB (Wetenschappelijk Technisch Centrum Bouwbedrijf) very long ago for Agglorex in MOL (Belgian producer) which in the Netherlands is distributed by .... damnit name escapes me now .....
Found it: Akousticon
But be careful with their advice. Very recently they advised a very heavy multi-leaf floor for rock bands (even with quality concrete top floor system) and it became a costly disaster for their client, typically resulting from a heavy but stupid designed multi-leave system.
That project was a very typical example of the risks of multi-leave systems. They really used the principle the heavier and the more leafs the better and at the end the drums came through at > 60 to 65 dB (can't remember) at residential neighbors.
Check those links (All Dutch):
http://www.prikpagina.nl/read.php?f=130&i=6215&t=6211

I think if you go for a lightweight top floor, that your better off with a structure as with those Auralex beam things or whatever comparable, and fill it up with wool, and control the drum skin effect with Green Glue between double layer.

But as always: it depends on what you expect from it.
A floating floor/construction varies between a couple of mm polyethylene foam to 1 foot high steel springs.

The standard MSM principles apply to floating floors as often described here in the forum and by Steve. There are no magic materials capable of changing physics.

Eric

Edited: Ro I noticed that you're going to build your wall on top of that floating floor? Then you need different densities and someone must calculate that for you. Maybe Acousticon will? I don't know.
I find it risky with this bonded foam in the long run (material fatigue). You only speak about mainly standard polyethers here. I don't know how this behaves in the long run. It's not a matter of density, because there is bonded foam extremely dense.
For standard floating floors it's used a lot (even with concrete top floors) and resilient skin walls too. But for more technical applications my guts wonder a bit here... This isn't a NO, but an "I don't know, I should be careful".

[Ro]

Even the lowest 60 kg/m3 bonded foam is acoustically rather dense (not mechanically) for just a topfloor in MDF (but better than fiberglass or rockwool).
I have this data somewhere in my archives.
This is measured by the Belgian WTCB (Wetenschappelijk Technisch Centrum Bouwbedrijf) very long ago for Agglorex in MOL (Belgian producer) which in the Netherlands is distributed by .... damnit name escapes me now .....
Found it: Akousticon
But be careful with their advice. Very recently they advised a very heavy multi-leaf floor for rock bands (even with quality concrete top floor system) and it became a costly disaster for their client, typically resulting from a heavy but stupid designed multi-leave system.
That project was a very typical example of the risks of multi-leave systems. They really used the principle the heavier and the more leafs the better and at the end the drums came through at > 60 to 65 dB (can't remember) at residential neighbors.
Check those links (All Dutch):
http://www.prikpagina.nl/read.php?f=130&i=6215&t=6211

I think if you go for a lightweight top floor, that your better off with a structure as with those Auralex beam things or whatever comparable, and fill it up with wool, and control the drum skin effect with Green Glue between double layer.

But as always: it depends on what you expect from it.
A floating floor/construction varies between a couple of mm polyethylene foam to 1 foot high steel springs.

The standard MSM principles apply to floating floors as often described here in the forum and by Steve. There are no magic materials capable of changing physics.

Eric

Hai Eric.
The Auralex solutions (u prolly mean beams with u-boat rubbers, right) was my initial plan, but transmission isolation between floors is not realy what my goal is with them floors. It's more to keep flanking at minimum. I've been searching for more solutions but this looked like the easiest and best so far. But again, I'm not sure yet.
IF I go for the agglofoam with woodfloor (1x15mm is lightweight indeed, might consider that again) isn't a more dense material beter when mass increases? That's what I've been wondering all along, what if I calculate the dead and expected live load. HOW to choose the right density?

Edited: Ro I noticed that you're going to build your wall on top of that floating floor? Then you need different densities and someone must calculate that for you. Maybe Acousticon will? I don't know.
I find it risky with this bonded foam in the long run (material fatigue). You only speak about mainly polyethers here. I don't know how this behaves in the long run. It's not a matter of density, because there is bonded foam extremely dense.

Yes, again... it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Asked about options in this very thread with little results however. Why on top of the floor? It's to keep my walls from the existing floor. Thought about the weight and all, hence the questions above. Still looking for a good solution.

.... so much questions.. so much to consider. thanx for your expertise so far Eric. I will look into the link you gave me. I've been on the akoestikon site before, gonna check'm again.

[Eric_Desart]

1) IF I go for the agglofoam with woodfloor (1x15mm is lightweight indeed, might consider that again) isn't a more dense material beter when mass increases? That's what I've been wondering all along, what if I calculate the dead and expected live load. HOW to choose the right density?

Yes, again... it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Asked about options in this very thread with little results however. Why on top of the floor? It's to keep my walls from the existing floor. Thought about the weight and all, hence the questions above. Still looking for a good solution.

.... so much questions.. so much to consider. thanx for your expertise so far Eric. I will look into the link you gave me. I've been on the akoestikon site before, gonna check'm again.

Ro,

Ask the supplier, if you speak about densities and deflection. I told this is measured, hence they should find that, being able to help you.

Ro these are relative cheap and relative good materials.
I know this material very well from very long ago (before akoesticon was even established).
But I'm on the net to share principles, not doing individual project calculations.

If you just use it for a lightweight floating floor the 60 kg/m3 is OK.
Depending on the thickness your floor will really feel a bit springy then. Hence you can't go lower, while at the other hand the MSM will still be too high for pro results. Hence it's ALWAYS good to make that top floor as heavy as possible, and make the live load relative insignificant versus the dead static load.

Those materials are not tested for critical applications in the long run as e.g. Sylomer, but which costs a multiple as well.

Edited:
Just copied part of another post of me here since the basic principles are equal.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The basic principle: The higher deflection under load the lower the resonance frequency = the better decoupling.
But if by bringing the deflection to a frequency point where vibration levels are dominant than you introduce a problem yourself.

For linear springs the relation deflection/resonance frequency =
Metric
fo = 15.8/sqrt(d)
d=(15.8/fo)^2
fo = resonance frequency
d= deflection in mm

Imperial
the same in imperial:
fo = 3.13502/sqrt(d)
d=(3.13502/fo)^2
fo = resonance frequency
d = deflection in inches

Note that depending on material this can deviate somewhat. The above assumes linear springs, but is a good rule of thumb.

Some materials are made just to improve high frequencies (impact noise).
They have there resonance in an unhealthy spot, but since rather damped don't cause practical trouble and below that frequency that material doesn't work as a decoupling anymore.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Ro]

For testdata I will consult the manufacturers. Also found other products which, indeed, are much more expensive. And that's something too consider too since my bank account is not endless

Is it wise to consider 2 different densities, one for the floor middle part and one for underneath the walls (the outside rim of the floor) ? Since there's no beam structure in this drawing, forces will not be balanced. Pressure is mostly at the outside areas of the floor.

I could also redraw the plan and NOT having the walls on this floor, but I need some decoupling material underneath my frame. Altho I've seen many ppl here make use of just some rubber strips, it was always on a concrete floor. Mine's wood for the 2nd and 3rd floor. What impact do these walls have (flanking wise?) if I have them resting on the original floor?

Have to do the calculations for the deadload one of these days.. darn, where's time when you need it

[Eric_Desart]

For testdata I will consult the manufacturers. Also found other products which, indeed, are much more expensive. And that's something too consider too since 1) my bank account is not endless

2) Is it wise to consider 2 different densities, one for the floor middle part and one for underneath the walls (the outside rim of the floor) ? Since there's no beam structure in this drawing, forces will not be balanced. Pressure is mostly at the outside areas of the floor.

3) I could also redraw the plan and NOT having the walls on this floor, but I need some decoupling material underneath my frame. Altho I've seen many ppl here make use of just some rubber strips, it was always on a concrete floor. Mine's wood for the 2nd and 3rd floor. What impact do these walls have (flanking wise?) if I have them resting on the original floor?

4) Have to do the calculations for the deadload one of these days.. darn, where's time when you need it

1) Commonly known problem ....

2) You MUST consider 2 densities with this design. If not this floor is bad.
If using high density to carry the walls the MSM for the floor becomes much to high. If using a density calculated for the floor, your deflection underneath the walls becomes too high (mechanically bad).
At least this must be calculated.
It could be possible to work with cut pieces, but the shape factor for this material can only be guestimated, and what you safe on material cost, cost much more on study cost.
Basically what you have to do is obtaining a common MSM over the floor and edges. Since this MSM is related to deflection, which is why I gave the formulas in my previous edit, you could experiment with it yourself if you like.
I have the feeling you didn't wonder why I entered those formulas, isn't it?

3) There are more ways to obtain a goal.
A related thread:
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... 3afc7ae9fd
+ everything you can find in this forum.

4) Also commonly known problem.

Success

[Ro]

Thanx Eric, will read more on this and start with calcs these days. Who said this was gonna be e.z. (not me)