John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Quick clarification -- Ridgeback's name appears on all the quotes in the previous post, but only the first two are his -- the rest are from me.

koberlin1 wrote:It sounds as though I should look for a similar description of garage water installtion codes for San Diego as your Camarillo link earlier... I believe in the description you sent me there were ventillation guidelines for ducted water heaters. I believe my heater has no ducted intake air source...it just pulls air in from a general opening at the pilot light area..

The point I was trying to make is that while your water heater ventilation plan may be kosher for the water heater itself, it is woefully inadequate for the studio. My water heater is very similar to yours, but it's in the garage that will remain garage when I'm done with my project.

Your Fantech's sole purpose is to feed fresh air into the studio and move old air out yes? The actual heating and cooling is done with your split unit?

That's correct. (Well, almost -- I'm planning to get a "cooling only" unit. I'll heat with a space heater when needed, and I suspect that will be close to never, given how well insulated the space will be.) That was the "aha!" that my climate control requirements and my ventilation requirements were separate, and as such, they could be addressed with separate systems. Prior to that I was so focused on finding an air conditioning system that could give me fresh air -- once I separated the two, I was home free.

My reasoning for starting without building permits was as follows: due to time constraints (as currently I have no studio to do my work in), as well as budget contraints (as you point out) I decided that working with a professional studio designer, contractor, HVAC installer, and electrician, avoiding any self installation work, would have to suffice for building to code.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "would have to suffice for building to code." Code is a pass-fail test. You can't be partially to code. You either are or you aren't -- and without building department inspections, you have no way of proving that you are to code. In order to get those inspections, you need a permit. In order to get a permit, you need plans approved by the city. In order to get plans approved by the city, your plans have to be drawn to demonstrate that code will be met. Merely having professionals doing the work does not guarantee that their work will be code compliant. (One could make the argument that having municipal inspections doesn't guarantee it either -- I agree, but then the city is on the hook for that.)

SO, in your opinion, and me being about 85% finished, and me losing some sleep over it, is it worth me approaching the city for a permit or is that totally unrealistic?

I think you owe it to yourself to explore the situation with your local building department. You should be able to visit them and get answers to your questions. You might be able to remain nameless and addressless in your research. If you come across as someone who jumped the gun, realizes that you have made a grave mistake, and truly wants to do things above board, you may find a sympathetic ear with advice on how to make your project legal -- although, depending on what you have done so far, you may have to undo or redo some things. I honestly don't know.

You may ultimately learn that what you are doing is illegal and can't be made legal. If that's the case, then you're pretty much screwed. You will then have to live with the consequences, which may be as minor as raised eyebrowse when reselling your home, or as major as punitive fines from either the city or the HOA or both, and possibly an order to demolish everything -- not to mention possible safety issues that could put lives in danger.

CC&Rs, and sometimes cities, generally prohibit full-on garage conversions because garages that can store no vehicles can put a burden on steet parking or common parking areas. It's quite understandable, really. I have lived in a place where garages were used almost exclusively for storage and all the cars were parked outside. It was not pleasant.

Bottom line, you may be trying to do this project in the wrong house. Contrary to popular (mis)belief, we can't do anything we want in/to our homes just because we own them. My wife an I literally sought out a house in our area that had enough garage space for me to do our project -- and even then I was lucky, because I had not done the preliminary research to confirm that it was even legal beforehand. Fortunately for me, it was -- albeit with limitations that made compliance a challenge on numerous issues that I have detailed in my thread.

You have my sympathies, sir... The reason I started that thread is because I really wanted to help people avoid the mess you're in right now. I'm sorry you didn't discover it prior to starting construction.

sharward wrote:Quick clarification -- Ridgeback's name appears on all the quotes in the previous post, but only the first two are his -- the rest are from me.

Yeah, it was like I grew an extra brain overnight! Either that or a few too many ales behind the keyboard

My bad Sharwood...I am still trying to get a hang of "quoting".

Thank you for all your insight. However, contrary to your feelings of my project I think I am far from having created a "mess" as you put it. I am very happy with the way it has turned out and look forward to finishing it up. I will deal with the consequences of my actions when they come.

Next studio I build I WILL go through the proper permit channels...unfortunately I am far to along and to much $$ invested to go back now. I am afraid that a sympathetic ear at the city office may be hard to find at this point..although I will see what friends I can make

Regarding the ventillation, what I have done will fill my immediate needs. If it does not workout, I can also add a duct system later. It is too elaborate for me to do what you have done without testing out my "minimalist" approach first. Besides you seem to have way more patience than me!

Regarding your comment on having the "wrong" house for the job, the main reason we bought this house was because of the separate third car garage and office across the hall, providing the perfect solution for my studio needs. The only other alternative was to have a home with a huge backyard to build a physically separate "facility"...not only would the required extra acerage cost a fortune here in San Diego but building an entirely new room would be $$$ as well...I would estimate around 30-40k. If my studio works out maybe we can afford a bigger lot next time. The garage provides a nice shell and allowed for a quick and very easily soundproofed installation...I am sure you would agree being that you are doing the same!

Thanks again for your attention to my questions...you have been very informative. Please don't get me wrong, I can appreciate your attention to proper code being followed...not only for leagal reasons but for safety as well, and will look at your post the next time I build.

No problem 'tall about the quoting, koberlin1.

Please promise me that you'll at least equip your space with a carbon monoxide detector and fire extinguishers. Carbon monoxide is odorless and can kill you. Your dependance on a wall panel that opens directly into your water heater controls and burner access for fresh air concerns me greatly.

Being mindful of real estate values down there (I have friends there, being from the area myself), I do understand and sympathize with your less-than-ideal situation.

As an aside, my sister-in-law suffered a rather unfortunate incident this week. She was at her boyfriend's house -- a construction worker who (among other things) hangs cabinets in new homes, mind you -- and was asleep in his bed at 3:45 AM when, all of a sudden and without warning, the shelving system mounted to the wall over the bed crashed down upon them. (Yeah. Don't get me started.) A stereo speaker hit her head and opened a wound so big that she had to be rushed to the emergency room, where after nearly six hours she got 4 interior stitches, 5 exterior stitches, 3 staples, and a chipped tooth. She's also lucky to be alive, able to walk and talk and see.

I'm telling this story for two reasons -- one, we need to be really really really really really careful when building/attaching stuff that our heads will be under (that includes ceilings), and two, even contractors make stupid mistakes.

I realize you hold your contractors in high esteem, but the fact that they're doing all this work for you sans building permits -- in California no less, a "sue me if you look at me funny" state -- leads me to seriously question their integrity and professionalism. Is any of them charging you more than $500 in labor and materials? If so, they'd better be licensed with the State Contractor's License Board or they should be arrested, just like this guy or this guy as a result of an unlicensed contractor sting operation that took place up here earlier this month.

As my final word on the subject, realizing full well that it's probably futile, I urge you to reconsider your plan. It is out of a sincere concern for the safety, wellbeing, and overall lack of deadness of you, your family, and your guests/customers that I even brought these things up.

No matter which way you go, I sincerely wish you the best.

--Keith

OK..let's try this quoting thing again..

sharward wrote:Please promise me that you'll at least equip your space with a carbon monoxide detector and fire extinguishers. Carbon monoxide is odorless and can kill you. Your dependance on a wall panel that opens directly into your water heater controls and burner access for fresh air concerns me greatly.

Yes, that is a very good idea. I will take those precautionary measures.

Being mindful of real estate values down there (I have friends there, being from the area myself), I do understand and sympathize with your less-than-ideal situation.

Yes, to tell you the truth, even with all the money in the world I would pobably never be totally satisfied with a house...just the way I am!

As an aside, my sister-in-law suffered a rather unfortunate incident this week. She was at her boyfriend's house -- a construction worker who (among other things) hangs cabinets in new homes, mind you -- and was asleep in his bed at 3:45 AM when, all of a sudden and without warning, the shelving system mounted to the wall over the bed crashed down upon them. (Yeah. Don't get me started.) A stereo speaker hit her head and opened a wound so big that she had to be rushed to the emergency room, where after nearly six hours she got 4 interior stitches, 5 exterior stitches, 3 staples, and a chipped tooth. She's also lucky to be alive, able to walk and talk and see.

Wow...I am so happy to hear that she is walking away from that horrible incident..what a nightmare.

I'm telling this story for two reasons -- one, we need to be really really really really really careful when building/attaching stuff that our heads will be under (that includes ceilings), and two, even contractors make stupid mistakes.

Yes, I have actually reviewed what my current contractor has done so far and am far from satisfied...quite a bit of shotty work..not using long enough screws to make sure all the drywall layers are fastened to the studs..doors not closing..etc. I actually told him I was not needing his services anymore this morning and have found someone else to fill his shoes.

I realize you hold your contractors in high esteem, but the fact that they're doing all this work for you sans building permits -- in California no less, a "sue me if you look at me funny" state -- leads me to seriously question their integrity and professionalism. Is any of them charging you more than $500 in labor and materials? If so, they'd better be licensed with the State Contractor's License Board or they should be arrested, just like this guy or this guy as a result of an unlicensed contractor sting operation that took place up here earlier this month.

Good "sue-happy" point...I am assuming that about 90% of these "contractors" actually do sub work most of the time and with side jobs like this just take them on without the proper licensing...

As my final word on the subject, realizing full well that it's probably futile, I urge you to reconsider your plan. It is out of a sincere concern for the safety, wellbeing, and overall lack of deadness of you, your family, and your guests/customers that I even brought these things up.

Thank you for the concern, I am looking into the best way to possibly approach the city with my concerns without losing all that I have done.

No matter which way you go, I sincerely wish you the best.

Thank you!

Keith,

Well, per your noted concern, I am starting to worry about getting proper ventillation in/out of the studio (I pictured myslef editing then waking up 8 hours later not knowing what had happened). I looked through your wonderfully massive thread but could not find your "silencer" recipe. They look beefy!

Is the main purpose of them to keep unwanted sound from travelling out of your studio via the ducting and to the outside world as well as unwanted sound coming INTO the studio from outside the studio environment? Looks like you doubled up on each as well..

All sound isolation works in both directions, even though it would seem that air flow would make one direction less effective; keep in mind though, that sound travels (at sea level) approximately 1130 feet per second, so if ventilating air were traveling at anywhere near that speed you couldn't hear anything over the air noise.

Meaning, that whether sounds are traveling "into the wind" in a vent system, or "with the wind", only makes a difference of maybe 5% of the speed of sound. The most this could cause in one direction vs. the other, would be a slight pitch change due to the doppler effect... Steve

My recipe per se isn't drawn yet. I'm basically going to build them in place. The surfaces of the silencers that are visible from the room (or garage, or laundry room) will be essentially equivalent thickness of the walls and ceiling they're attached to, with a couple of zig zags and lined with insulation.

knightfly wrote:Meaning, that whether sounds are traveling "into the wind" in a vent system, or "with the wind", only makes a difference of maybe 5% of the speed of sound. The most this could cause in one direction vs. the other, would be a slight pitch change due to the doppler effect...

Makes sense!

sharwood wrote:My recipe per se isn't drawn yet. I'm basically going to build them in place. The surfaces of the silencers that are visible from the room (or garage, or laundry room) will be essentially equivalent thickness of the walls and ceiling they're attached to, with a couple of zig zags and lined with insulation.

Got it. It sounds as though the silencers will blend in aestheically with the room very well.

Let me pick at your brain a little more here (although I am gessing my "consultation" tab is getting rather large)...I was talking with my (new) contractor and we were thinking of maybe going up through the studio roof into a bathroom and pulling/exhausting the air into there to/from the studio. This would keep sound leakage to the "outside world" to a minimal (and would only annoy whatever guest is using that bathroom at the time)

How about running them up from the studio ceiling into bathroom, at the cabinet, using metal vents on both ends, with filters...maybe I should draw this...

(3 hours later)

OK! That took WAY too long but I think I am onto something...

The problems that pop out at me are:

- Having the exhaust air being blown into the same room where the fresh air comes from.

- Having the vents only 5 feet apart

- Having the minisplit so close to the vents. Maybe the exhaust vent would suck up all that nice warm/cold air before it could get to me at the other end of the studio.

- I would need a switch IN the studio...ideally near other switch plates next to entrance... to turn the fans on/off.

- Actually implementing this...

The limitations I have are:

- the storage room has a vent (behind the H20 heater) going from the inside of the storage room out to the outside world for a fresh air supply in their. Would the new holes for the vents poked into the studio walls allow for sound to somehow travel out to the vent to the outiside? Hopefully my silencers would helpout..It would be hard to stomach cutting two new big holes in this tight "shell" I have built...but seems necessary.

- I cannot put the vents anywhere else in the studio but on that back wall. There is basically 3" of space B/T the studio cieling and garage cieling.

A few more questions:

- what size/type of ducting would you recommend.

- I am thinking of building the "silencers" that will be in the storage area out of 1/2" particle board with fiberglass insulating the insides...how big should these boxes be to be effective you think?

- What type of fan units? I have a nice large/quiet/heavy duty computer type fan that blows air out of my computers isolation box...maybe that would be suffice in a slightly larger form...

"Fresh" air isn't fresh if it's coming from an adjacent room. Code is really clear about this. It has to come in directly from inside.

That's why windows are on the exterior of a home and not in hallways.

Therefore, "ixnay" on the "air exchange with the bathroom" idea.

In theory (I sure hope, 'cuz this is what I'm going to do), if you have two beefy silencers on the inside of your studio, and then two equally beefy silencers on the outside of your studio, you'll cut down on your sound leakage. That's what Sir Woodlock did, and if it's good enough for him, then it's good enough for me!

Here's where I'll again encourage you to visit your municipal bureaucrats to guide you. Please don't take my advice or my plan's specifics and apply it without verifying that it's kosher in your town.

- what size/type of ducting would you recommend.

I dunno... Whatever the fans require to support the volume of air you are going to need to do the number of ACH (air changes per hour) that code requires.

- I am thinking of building the "silencers" that will be in the storage area out of 1/2" particle board with fiberglass insulating the insides...how big should these boxes be to be effective you think?

Multiple layers of MDF, right? You'll need it. They need to be at least as beefy as your walls/ceiling in order to keep up with them. And you'll want to use duct liner (insulation), not regular stuff, because you don't want fibers flying all over the place.

- What type of fan units? I have a nice large/quiet/heavy duty computer type fan that blows air out of my computers isolation box...maybe that would be suffice in a slightly larger form...

Have you checked out the Fantech heat recovery units? That's what I'm going to use (specifically, the VHR 1404). They're not cheap, but I'm impressed with what I see on the site.

--Keith

sharwood wrote:"Fresh" air isn't fresh if it's coming from an adjacent room. Code is really clear about this. It has to come in directly from inside.

Yes, I have thought it over a little more. Pulling air from inside the house was a way to avoid having to duct to the outside where I have to really worry about sound carrying through the ducting. I gave my HVAC guy a call and he also said that pulling air from the inside of the house would create negative pressure which is not good. When he comes to install the split sytem we will brainstorm.

Have you checked out the Fantech heat recovery units? That's what I'm going to use (specifically, the VHR 1404). They're not cheap, but I'm impressed with what I see on the site.

Yes, that unit looks very nice! How loud is it when functioning? I could put it out next to the split system compressor but figure that if both units were at around 40dBa..together they would be fairly loud...can't have my neighbors complaining

It is big added expense as well...not to mention all the ducting that needs to be done...UG!! Seems like everyday I find something expensive that I did not take into account...

Maybe I could use a bathrom exhaust fan inline with some exhaust ducting and keep things simple. Trust me, that Fantech looks like a fantastic unit...it is just $$, bulky, and I am limited on where I can put it..

BTW, the name's sharward, not sharwood.

Have you checked out the Fantech heat recovery units? That's what I'm going to use (specifically, the VHR 1404). They're not cheap, but I'm impressed with what I see on the site.

Yes, that unit looks very nice! How loud is it when functioning?

They're pretty quiet, and I think they have multiple fan speeds.

I could put it out next to the split system compressor but figure that if both units were at around 40dBa..together they would be fairly loud...can't have my neighbors complaining

First of all, the mini splits are really quiet -- especially the indoor unit. The outdoor units are louder but supposedly much quieter than "ordinary" outdoor units.

And the HRV does not go outside. It must be indoors. I'm thinking you should put it in your hot water heater closet type thingy. You will need to be able to access it to maintain the filters and such.

You should review the HRV installation instructions to get a better idea of what you're dealing with.

It is big added expense as well...not to mention all the ducting that needs to be done...UG!! Seems like everyday I find something expensive that I did not take into account...

I know what you mean... ...I went through the same thing. The only difference (a big one) is that I made all these discoveries before starting construction.

Maybe I could use a bathrom exhaust fan inline with some exhaust ducting and keep things simple. Trust me, that Fantech looks like a fantastic unit...it is just $$, bulky, and I am limited on where I can put it..

Maybe... ...You live in a climatic wonderland (occasional humidity notwithstanding), so you may not have to worry as much about energy efficiency. Again, check with your building officials.

Yes, I will continue to say that!

--Keith

Well I have been working in it for around 4 months. Mixed a few symphonies and CD's and recorded quite a bit of VO/instruments and it sounds good! Some bass does resonate at one of my walls where there is a 1 foot void B/T the studio wall and garage wall..working on that.

Goto www.koberlinstudios.com for up to date pics

My next project will be installing a pre-fabbed booth in the room across the hall.

I probably spent a total of 24 hours reading and asking questions here at the forum. Thank you so much for all your expertise!

Hey -- I see that you decided to use the Fantech HRV! I'm really interested in how that turned out for you. It seems you've achieved success with your mini split / HRV combo, but I'd love to hear more details and see lots of pictures, since that's almost precisely what I'm going to do on my project.

--Keith