Is there a magic size?

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Soundman2020 »

Of course modes are usually detectable in inadequately treated rooms. But how significant relatively?
I think maybe I didn't explain the point very clearly...

It's not an issue of weather or not modes are detectable, but rather the simple fact that the modes themselves (not the ringing! Just the mode...) are what shape the frequency response of the entire room, and the entire spectrum. Absorption is largely irrelevant here, since it doesn't change the modal response: it just damps the ringing.

I'm not sure if you have Kleiner and Tichy's book on small room acoustics, but they explain the issue quite clearly:
TICHY--Modal-contribution-to-room-response.jpg
The overall steady-state frequency response is determined by the modal response. And damping doesn't do a lot to change that:
TICHY--Effect-of-damping-on-room-response.jpg
Even with high damping (lower graph) the frequency response is not getting flat: In other words, the modes are still there still making their effect "present", even though the might be highly damped, and not ringing at all. The modes are "detectable", regardless of weather the treatment was "adequate" or not.

Hence, there's no such thing as "no modes in a room". It's certainly possible to have a room where the modes don't ring: that can be done in any carefully designed room of reasonable size). But the modes are still there: the modal response still has a large effect on the overall frequency response of the room, even if the time-domain response is smooth, with no modal ringing.
I wouldn't hazard a guess as to what level of mode is 'significant'
In the second graph above, I'd say that the remaining modal "ghosts" (to coin a term" are very much significant, despite the damping: there's still wild swings on SPL, over a range of 30, 40, and even 50 dB.
...bigger is generally better, particularly as it can include treatment.
Yup! For sure! You can get more of the spectrum above the Schroeder frequency, and into statistical territory. That's always a good thing.
the Back Wall is typically the biggest factor at play, and most often inadequately treated.
Yup. Many first-time studio builders greatly underestimate the effect of the rear wall, and can't understand why you need a meter or so of treatment back there, wanting to put up one inch of foam instead... :roll:
the almost absurd practice of placing the listener Mid Width AND Mid Height.
Yup! If only architects would be back to building ten foot ceilings in houses, or at least 9 foot ceilings! It would make things a lot easier. Or maybe persuade engineer to start mixing while crouching down low, sitting on a 6" kiddie chair... or sitting way up high on a bar stool! :) Not much we can do about side-to-side, but vertically it would be nice to have more options.


- Stuart -
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Waka wrote:With regards to isolation you need to know what you dB you produce first, then minus what you need it to be outside.

For example:
If you make techno music at 80dB, you need that to be down to 34dB at the closest neighbours boundary. (It could be legally you're allowed more than 34dB, it depends where you are. Basically measure the ambient noise on a quiet evening, if it's above 24dB (it will be) then add 10dB to that for the legal limit in your area).

So you would be looking at 46dB of isolation needed if you worked at 80dB. You can take 6dB off that for each doubling of distance to your room.
For example:
Neighbour's boundary is 1m from the closest studio wall, take away nothing.
Boundary is 2m away, you can take off 6dB.
Boundary is 4m away, take off 12 dB.
And so on.

This gives you your legal isolation requirements. You would definitely want to be have a bit more than this though just in case.

Dan

So i took a reading on the plot of land where the new studio will be. I went out when it was generally a quiet time, 9pm - At my neighbours fence it read 45dbc (i used an spl meter app on my phone with it set to slow and 'c' rating)

I measured what i work at in my studio and its generally around 80dbc

I am not concerned with sound coming into the studio as i am not mic'ing/recording anything inside and its generally quite quiet outside.

My main thing now is i'm looking at building about 0.5m from the fence - so we can save space down there, but i think to do that i am going to need to get planning permission. As i understand it if you come in 2m from your borders then you don't need planning permission up to a certain degree.
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

elastic wrote:So i took a reading on the plot of land where the new studio will be. I went out when it was generally a quiet time, 9pm - At my neighbours fence it read 45dbc (i used an spl meter app on my phone with it set to slow and 'c' rating)

I measured what i work at in my studio and its generally around 80dbc

I am not concerned with sound coming into the studio as i am not mic'ing/recording anything inside and its generally quite quiet outside.

My main thing now is i'm looking at building about 0.5m from the fence - so we can save space down there, but i think to do that i am going to need to get planning permission. As i understand it if you come in 2m from your borders then you don't need planning permission up to a certain degree.
A phone app isn't going to be accurate in any way really. So I would take that with a pinch of salt. 45dBC seems quite loud. You might want to try in the night to see what it's like without traffic. If the measurement is accurate then you could legally produce 50dBC at your boundary. You can easily get 40dBC of isolation in your studio. Just having seals on your (back to back) doors, sealing all the gaps in your wall leaves and adding a silencer box on the HVAC inlet and outlet can achieve that. So that would put you 10dBC below the legal limit, which seems a good target.

In the UK you don't need planning permission for an outbuilding in your garden, as long as you follow the "permitted development" rules. Check the planning portal website.
You may find (like me) that it's better just to get planning permission anyway (about £200) and then you can have a lot more freedom to go bigger etc.
Within 2m of the boundary limits you to a max height of 2.4m external height when building under permitted development rules. That includes eaves and roofing materials etc. You would have to dig down and have steps into the studio if you want a higher ceiling (aka. be silly). Just pay the £200 and then, providing the location for the studio doesn't block your neighbours light or view more than other surrounding trees/buildings it will be fine.

The biggest expense on the council side of things is building regs. You may not need the inspecitions though if it's just you using it and it's not having member of the public in it, check with the council.

For planning permission you need some basic drawings of the elevations and a location plan (you can draw these yourself), with dimensions, and the details about the facing material you'll be using.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Thanks for that Dan appreciate the help.

I will check at night with my app, there is no traffic where we live really, but will check again.

I would prefer to go closer to my neighbours fence, i was thinking about 0.5-1m away from the left and back fence. If we come in 2m - great its permitted development but we then lose a lot of wasted land around the sides of the studio as its kind of dead space then.

Great to know about the approx price. £200 is ok. I was skeptical about drawings though, i figured i would have to get drawings done by a structural engineer type person. I read on another website that planning permission had been rejected for someone because the drawings weren't good enough.

Yes it will just be me using it, no member of the public. Should i tell the council it will be a music studio, or just say it will be a man cave type of thing.

The studio will be far down the garden (about 35m from the houses) and my neighbour knows what im planning so putting it a bit closer to the fence should be ok, i will ask him first of course.

Here's a pic of the land - The plot ive got to work with is 10m wide 11m deep

I'm thinking of building with SIP panels, i wonder if i will need a room within a room type of thing or if a single skim wall will be enough for my needs? Also thinking the floor and roof to use SIP panels. Ever used or know anything about them?
Screen Shot 2019-05-22 at 21.42.56.png
Waka
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

elastic wrote:Thanks for that Dan appreciate the help.

I will check at night with my app, there is no traffic where we live really, but will check again.

I would prefer to go closer to my neighbours fence, i was thinking about 0.5-1m away from the left and back fence. If we come in 2m - great its permitted development but we then lose a lot of wasted land around the sides of the studio as its kind of dead space then.

Great to know about the approx price. £200 is ok. I was skeptical about drawings though, i figured i would have to get drawings done by a structural engineer type person. I read on another website that planning permission had been rejected for someone because the drawings weren't good enough.

Yes it will just be me using it, no member of the public. Should i tell the council it will be a music studio, or just say it will be a man cave type of thing.

The studio will be far down the garden (about 35m from the houses) and my neighbour knows what im planning so putting it a bit closer to the fence should be ok, i will ask him first of course.

Here's a pic of the land - The plot ive got to work with is 10m wide 11m deep

I'm thinking of building with SIP panels, i wonder if i will need a room within a room type of thing or if a single skim wall will be enough for my needs? Also thinking the floor and roof to use SIP panels. Ever used or know anything about them?
Screen Shot 2019-05-22 at 21.42.56.png
You can definitely go within 2m of the boundary (even within permitted development), but without planning permission you're limited in height to 2.4m.

I wouldn't worry about the drawings being too simple, it really doesn't matter for planning permission (it's more involved for building regs). Mine were really simple, you can view them here:
https://planning.sholland.gov.uk/Ocella ... &module=pl
I put music studio on my application, they just stipulated I shouldn't have opening windows.

I definitely wouldn't go with SIP panels. They're just OSB either side of polystyrene insulation. That will give bad isolation.
If you go single skin you would want to go for brick, it may be difficult to deal with condensation, in this case though. If you only want 40dB of isolation, you might be able to get away with a single timber frame with resilient channel for the inner leaf. Or you can go with a semi decoupled timber frame by using a 150mm sole plate and head plate and then using 100mm studs staggered.
The best is room within a room as you know though.

In the end, if I was doing 40dB isolation, I wound go with resilient bars, and do it all DIY to guarantee there aren't mistakes by builders screwing through to the framing instead of just the bars.
That would be cheaper and save floor space over room within a room. But would be possibly 10x (10dB) less isolation with the same sheathing materials.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Dan you're a gent, seeing your application was great. Thanks for that. My size is similar to yours. I'm looking at about (internal) 5.5m x 3.5m with 2.5m height minimum

I've started my application online, completed a load of it already, just need to finalise my design and get the drawings done (finance is going to do them).

Its the walls im struggling with lol SIPs not looking good, i like those resilient bars idea but i don't like the lack of isolation. I don't want brick. I think i like the idea of a 2 leaf system.

Would i be right in thinking with a 2 leaf system, you basically build 2 stud walls, stuff them with rock wool, then for best practice put acoustic plasterboard on the room side stud and on the outer stud.
Still not 100% sure on it all but eagerly learning as i go!

This picture is the wall i am aiming for. 2 layers of plasterboard on each outside face of both walls.

(i don't pay much attention to STC ratings as they are calculated based on the frequency range of human speech not music) - but you get the idea.

Edit - just reading about these RC1 and RC2 bars. Interesting stuff. Imagine if you did a 2 leaf wall system then added the resilient bars as well. less space but big isolation surely? I won't do that but just intriguing.

Screen Shot 2019-05-24 at 23.05.21.png
Waka
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

elastic wrote:Dan you're a gent, seeing your application was great. Thanks for that. My size is similar to yours. I'm looking at about (internal) 5.5m x 3.5m with 2.5m height minimum

I've started my application online, completed a load of it already, just need to finalise my design and get the drawings done (finance is going to do them).

Its the walls im struggling with lol SIPs not looking good, i like those resilient bars idea but i don't like the lack of isolation. I don't want brick. I think i like the idea of a 2 leaf system.

Would i be right in thinking with a 2 leaf system, you basically build 2 stud walls, stuff them with rock wool, then for best practice put acoustic plasterboard on the room side stud and on the outer stud.
Still not 100% sure on it all but eagerly learning as i go!

This picture is the wall i am aiming for. 2 layers of plasterboard on each outside face of both walls.

(i don't pay much attention to STC ratings as they are calculated based on the frequency range of human speech not music) - but you get the idea.
Screen Shot 2019-05-24 at 23.05.21.png
No problem 8). For decoupled room within a room you build two free standing rooms. The outer frame has 4 walls and roof trusses/joists sitting on it. The inner frame has 4 walls and ceiling joists sitting on it, and doesn't touch the outer framing at all, at any point.
You would want 2 layers on each leaf yes, but the first layer wants to be structural, eg. OSB3 or ply wood, to prevent horizontal movement.
I used 18mm OSB3 and 15mm standard plasterboard (not acoustic) as it's similar mass to 12.5mm acoustic plasterboard but cheaper. Inner leaf needs polythene vapour barrier behind the OSB3 and outer leaf needs a breather membrane on the surface of the OSB3 (I put the outer leaf plasterboard between the studs tight against the OSB3 as it's not for exterior installation).
I decided to go with a timber cladding for my outer facing material (yes it's technically a third leaf) as it was the simplest option that controlled moisture by allowing the OSB3 to dump the moisture in the ventilation air gap behind the cladding.
There are other possibilities for facing material, but this one seemed simplest to me.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Soundman2020 »

Interesting stuff. Imagine if you did a 2 leaf wall system then added the resilient bars as well. less space but big isolation surely?
If you have a decoupled two leaf wall, then there's no benefit from decoupling again with resilient channel. Well, there IS a benefit: but it's for the pocket of they guy who sells you that stuff! :) There's no acoustic benefit for you. That would be sort of like swimming down to the bottom of a swimming pool to get very wet, but taking a hosepipe down with you to get you even wetter.... :)

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elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Haha brilliant Stuart!! Well explained :)

Great advice Dan, thanks for that. Some things to think about for me.

I will try and work out just how thick the walls will be by doing a two leaf system compared to doing a single leaf and resilient bars.
Floor space saved Vs Isolation

Did you put the door on the back/front of your studio for any reason? I'm looking at putting the door (single or double doors not sure yet) on the side. I hear the back wall is sacred and i will be working towards the front wall.
Screen Shot 2019-05-25 at 08.04.11.png
Waka
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

elastic wrote:Did you put the door on the back/front of your studio for any reason? I'm looking at putting the door (single or double doors not sure yet) on the side. I hear the back wall is sacred and i will be working towards the front wall.
I didn't :lol: that was an old design before I had researched properly. My door is in the side and I didn't install windows, I'm putting a window in the door though.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Haha that makes sense. I’m going to try and get as much light in as possible. Thinking a couple of floor to ceiling or quite long panels of glass windows along the side where the door is. Probably not where the first reflection points will be though, I guess it would be wise to avoid putting a window where your first reflection points are?
Waka
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

elastic wrote:Haha that makes sense. I’m going to try and get as much light in as possible. Thinking a couple of floor to ceiling or quite long panels of glass windows along the side where the door is. Probably not where the first reflection points will be though, I guess it would be wise to avoid putting a window where your first reflection points are?
Remember your glass will be very expensive, you'll probably need a pane 12-15mm thickness glass in each leaf. So I'd get a quote before you settle on anything.

With regards to first reflection points, you caaaan have glass there but you will be to angle it so it redirects the sound to the rear wall, so it might not be feasible.

I would have the windows just past the soffit wings (are you soffit mounting speakers?) and definitely not opposite each other on opposing walls. You could also have a window on the front wall above desk height in between the speaker soffits.

You might notice that it's best to fully design your studio before putting the windows in the design, to prevent you making a mistake in the location.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

Yes will be soffit mounting the speakers. Another thing I need to figure out ha!

Yeah I forgot to say I will have a window in between the soffits so I can look out there while I work.
No windows on the left wall as it’s going to be quite close to a fence so pointless and no windows on the back wall either.

So there’s no way of opening any windows in a two leaf system I imagine?

I’ve ordered my spl meter today. Went for this one -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Handheld-Measu ... B01M32WX3H
elastic
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by elastic »

So I took my reading with my new spl meter, slow and c rating -

In my current studio where I sit, it’s about 95dbc when I turn it up loud, generally I work between 80-90dbc but I will go with 95 as my reading as I do go to that level sometimes.

In the garden where the new studio will be built it measured 50dbc at 9pm - fair few birds chirping around and faint distant car hum from roads.

I’m in England and this is what the government website says -

The permitted noise level using A-weighted decibels (the unit environmental noise is usually measured in) is:

34 dBA (decibels adjusted) if the underlying level of noise is no more than 24 dBA
10 dBA above the underlying level of noise if this is more than 24 dBA

So would i be looking at about 35db isolation needed? (i did 50db plus 10 - then 95 - 60 = 35)
That doesn't seem much isolation to me?

Just struggling to get a grip on exactly what isolation I require. Apologies if this seems trivial or easy, I’m just not great at things like this.
Thanks again
Waka
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Re: Is there a magic size?

Post by Waka »

Did you measure on A-weighted or C-weighted, because the regulation says it needs to be measured using the A-weighted setting?

If 50dBA is the quietest it gets on your area then you would indeed be legally able to produce noise of up to 60dBA at your border, so 35dB isolation, which is super easy to get. Whether or not that would be acceptable to you is up to you. You can basically pick the level you want to isolate. You may want to isolate more than that to keep your neighbours on side, even if there is no legal reason to do so.

Dan
Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.
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