Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to Amaze

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

I think so. Your SketchUp design will clarify all of that for us.
Cool, thanks. My father-in-law (who owns the home) is a carpenter too, so that will be helpful.
I don't have revision 2 of Rods book, but version 1 doesn't mention silencer boxes, so you'll have to look them on the forum here.
Revision 2 does have some info on silencer boxes, and I've read a bunch already on here. Gonna just keep researching and see what I can work out.
You seem to be reading at a decent rate, and you have a grasp on SketchUp now. I'd say you have a good chance of having a layout completed in that time. From there, you could start the tedious beef-up process. But before any framing starts, make sure your design is 100% complete. I've been slowly digging away at my own design for 9 months and I'm still changing my framing at things get adjusted! Your soffit design alone could take weeks!
I'm trying! And thanks for the words of wisdom...I read through most of your studio thread I believe, and it looks awesome!
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

OK, minor HVAC update, which is unfortunately still very incomplete but I'm on a bit of a roller coaster here trying to figure this out, and wanted to run a few things by y'all.

I spoke with the contractor and he said zoning is not possible and that it's not a multiple stage, variable furnace. The AC unit is a 2 ton unit. The current plan is to only have a duct going into the studio room - no exhaust, and no fresh air. This plan was made with the contractor before we knew exactly what we were doing with the basement - basically just carving it up into rooms.

Any thoughts are appreciated but I guess what I'm wondering now is a little bigger picture. I would say the vast majority of the time I am going to have two people in there writing and recording vocals, for 3-4 hours, once a week. The actual time that we are recording is much lower than the time we are writing and hanging out. I will be doing longer mixing sessions, but very rarely over 4-5 hours. The bathroom and (more importantly) beer fridge will be outside the room, so we will be opening up to the rest of the basement probably every hour or so. Am I in danger of making a terrible mistake to think that this would be sufficient for letting in fresh air and removing the stale air from the room, and that as long as the current system can adequately heat and cool the space I should be ok? I know I still have more math to do, but from what I can tell, we will be generating in the neighborhood of 8,500 btu in a normal session, which the contractor says should be no problem. I guess I also wonder if it would be possible to use a portable air conditioner if, for example, I had some people over to jam. I wouldn't care how much noise it makes, and that will happen so rarely that I don't want to factor that in to the room for normal use. Drumming would happen more frequently, but again, I feel like I could use a portable AC and/or a fan for those times. I could also run a dehumidifier in there while I'm not using the room, which will be like 95% of any given week.

I apologize if this is moving backwards, but I feel really stuck on this and keep going back and forth with my lady because she already thinks I'm being insane about the whole project. The contractor is great but has no idea about studio needs or design. If I need to tell them to do something different, they will do it, but I'm worried about spending thousands of dollars and probably delaying a crucial part of the overall basement renovation over. And I still don't know what to tell them. I could also partially or fully close the vents, leave the doors open, etc. while the studio is not in use.

If the answer is "quit whining, do more work, and do it right," then that's what I'll do...but the more I got back and forth over this, the more it just seems like getting heating and cooling from the existing system is the simplest solution, and then augment with portable AC/dehumidifiers/space heaters if it's a problem. Thanks as always and please be gentle :)
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Soundman2020 »

The current plan is to only have a duct going into the studio room - no exhaust, and no fresh air.
:shock: Think about that for a second: The studio is basically a hermetically sealed box: totally air-tight. And you are saying that there will just one duct coming in, with nothing going out.... Think it through... :) Firstly, why would air even decide to move through that one single duct, into your room? Can you blow through a straw if you are holding your finger over the far end? :lol: That's the situation: the duct is basically like a straw that COULD send air into your room, but since your room is a tightly sealed box, the air can't go in! It has no place to go. You MUST have a return duct! This is very, very basic, and I'm really surprised that your HVAC expert did not figure this out for himself... If there is no return duct, then there is no place for air to get out of the room, so it is impossible to put air into the room...
This plan was made with the contractor before we knew exactly what we were doing with the basement - basically just carving it up into rooms.
Normal rooms are not air-tight: there are gaps and cracks all over where air can leak, and normal rooms also usually have return registers somewhere, in the floor, wall, ceiling, door, etc.. Your studio CANNOT have gaps and cracks, and it cannot have ordinary return registers. It needs a proper return duct that goes through a silencer box, just like the supply duct.
I would say the vast majority of the time I am going to have two people in there writing and recording vocals, for 3-4 hours,
Figure out the O2 needs for 2 people working moderately, but more important figure out how much CO2 those two people will be expelling, and how much humidity. If there is no HVAC, then that CO2 and humidity cannot leave the room, so it builds up and up and up... as do the various other smells, odors, and other unpleasant things....
so we will be opening up to the rest of the basement probably every hour or so.
If you have a duct coming in, and you open the door, then there MIGHT be a return path through the doorway... but you cannot track and mix with the door open, and that won't properly control the levels anyway.

Am I in danger of making a terrible mistake to think that this would be sufficient for letting in fresh air and removing the stale air from the room, and that as long as the current system can adequately heat and cool the space I should be ok?
The answer is yes, you would be in danger of doing that.... :)
we will be generating in the neighborhood of 8,500 btu in a normal session, which the contractor says should be no problem
How much of that is latent heat, and how much is sensible heat? There's a difference...
I guess I also wonder if it would be possible to use a portable air conditioner if
Where would you run the exhaust line too? And where would the fresh air come from? Take a good look at how portable A/C units work.... DO you really want to be halting your sessions regularly so you can empty out the condensation bucket?
I wouldn't care how much noise it makes,
:) Try that in practice, and see how it works. That's all fine in theory, but what about practice? :lol:
Drumming would happen more frequently, but again, I feel like I could use a portable AC and/or a fan for those times.
How would those work with the door closed? And if the door is OPEN, then there's no isolation, and the acoustics are shot too....
I apologize if this is moving backwards
, :!: Yup...
The contractor is great but has no idea about studio needs or design.
... and therein lies your problem. Studios are rather different from ordinary houses, shops, schools, offices, etc.
the more it just seems like getting heating and cooling from the existing system is the simplest solution,
That's fine, as long as you don't plan to actually have PEOPLE in the room! :) People suck up oxygen. People generate CO2 and odors. People generate humidity. Heating and cooling does not deal with ANY of that. You need VENTILATION to deal with that. You need to move air through the room at a certain minimal rate, which depends on the size of the room, you need to dump a portion of that "moved" air overboard, sufficient to ensure that you are getting rid of the CO2 and odors fast enough, and you need to replace that "dumped" air with the same volume of fresh air. That is IN ADDITION to the heating and cooling. There's two parts to the story hear: One is the heating/cooling, the other is the ventilation. One without the other is no use. That's why it is called "HVAC" :)
Thanks as always and please be gentle
:thu: I tried Not sure if I succeeded....

- Stuart -
danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

Oof :)

I’m frustrated and anxious about this and probably should have held off on posting until I had some more research under my belt. Everything you say makes sense, and also makes clear that I have to keep figuring this out. The past week has been crazy but I can focus on this for the next days and hopefully post again soon.
:thu: I tried Not sure if I succeeded....
Sometimes the truth hurts :) you were great and I appreciate the reality check.
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Gregwor »

I’m frustrated and anxious about this and probably should have held off on posting until I had some more research under my belt. Everything you say makes sense, and also makes clear that I have to keep figuring this out. The past week has been crazy but I can focus on this for the next days and hopefully post again soon.
You were posting at just the right time. The reality check is what will get you an awesome studio in the end! Just keep slugging away and don't hesitate to ask questions. I think we all know the frustration when you can't find a simple answer after looking for like 6 hours. Don't give up.

Greg
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.
danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

I really appreciate that, thank you :)
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

OK, obviously still trying to figure this out but having trouble with a couple of basic issues.

1. For "fresh air", should I actually have a vent to the outside, separate from my supply and return vents? The contractor said that the conditioned air coming in to the room is not "fresh" so I'm trying to figure out how that works.

2. For the return vent, should it be tied into the rest of the HVAC system, or should the studio air be dumped elsewhere? Does it matter?

FWIW, one wall of my studio would be shared with an entrance-way with a door to the outside. This is only for storage, so in theory, I could get air from there, and dump the stale studio air into there, and it wouldn't be to a habitable space. Apologies again for the super basic questions, but I may have mentioned that this part of the build in particularly confusing to me :)
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Soundman2020 »

Fresh air is supposed to be fresh! :) Bringing in air from other rooms means that it isn't very fresh.... quite stale, actually. HVAC regulations in general frown on sucking air from one room into another, and also frown on dumping air from one room into another...

Yes, the HVAC system generally recirculates most of the air through the house/office/school/mall/whatever, but at some point it needs to dump a certain percentage of that stale air to the outside, then bring in the same volume of "make-up" fresh air from the outside world. Houses used to be leaky enough that it wasn't such a big deal, but as regulations (and common sense) have tightened up on leakage for energy efficiency, there's more and more need for correct handling of fresh air intake and stale air dumping. Since a studio is the ultimate example of a totally sealed, "leakless" room, it takes this concept to the extreme...

Do the math: figure out what volume of air you need to move through your room, based on the normal guidelines, then figure out what percentage of that needs to be fresh air intake / stale air exhaust, and work from there to figure out your flow velocities, duct sizes, silencer box dimensions, AHU air capacity, static pressure, etc.

- Stuart -
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Gregwor »

1. For "fresh air", should I actually have a vent to the outside, separate from my supply and return vents? The contractor said that the conditioned air coming in to the room is not "fresh" so I'm trying to figure out how that works.

2. For the return vent, should it be tied into the rest of the HVAC system, or should the studio air be dumped elsewhere? Does it matter?
Check out this picture. It should answer your question:
Stale Out Fresh In.jpg
You should aim for between 25 and 30% fresh air into your room. In order to actually move that air though, you'd need inline fans. And on very hot or cold days, you'll be wasting a lot of conditioned air. That's where an HRV comes into the picture. It have fans AND it keeps most of your thermal energy inside your home. Sadly, they're quite expensive. But, personally I would rather spend the money and save the energy.
FWIW, one wall of my studio would be shared with an entrance-way with a door to the outside. This is only for storage, so in theory, I could get air from there, and dump the stale studio air into there, and it wouldn't be to a habitable space.
Dump stale air and get fresh air from outside. Period.

Hopefully that helps!

Greg
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.
danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

Thank you! That makes sense to me, I just want to make sure I'm not working from flawed premises.
Do the math: figure out what volume of air you need to move through your room, based on the normal guidelines, then figure out what percentage of that needs to be fresh air intake / stale air exhaust, and work from there to figure out your flow velocities, duct sizes, silencer box dimensions, AHU air capacity, static pressure, etc.
So I did *some* math...whether it's *the* math is my next step :)

Here's what I have so far, from trying to find these calculations in other threads and Rod's book. If there is a comprehensive post somewhere, that would be very helpful, and I apologize if it's staring me in the face and I just haven't found it. Anyway...

Caveat - I know these are relatively rough since I don't even have my layout done yet, but since the HVAC guys are coming next week, I need to figure it out. Even if it's telling them to hold off on my room, which I would greatly prefer not to do. But I think this is a pretty accurate ballpark, if that even makes sense :)

So...

CFM = 160, I believe. I did this by using 6 air changes an hour x 1600 cubic feet of air (200 ft2 of studio x 8 ft high) divided by 60 minutes.

I saw in Rod's book that you need about 15 cfm per person (saw 22 on another post here) - am I understanding correctly that this would be the amount needed to dump overboard? So if I almost always have 2 people in the room, I would need to make up 30-44 CFM, or about 20-30%?

From a few posts back:
HVAC: Basically, the issue is doing some math to start with! Figure out how much are volume you need to move through the studio and cool/heat/dehumidify in CFM (CFM = cubic feet per minute), and how much of that needs to be dumped overboard and replaced with fresh air. Once you have those two numbers, you can check that against your existing basement system, to see if there's enough capacity in it to be able to handle that. That's the first sanity check. If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) )
So how would I check this against my current system? Ask the contractor if it can handle an additional 160 CFM? And if we add a return (tied into the existing system?), if it can remove 30-44 CFM?

Also from a few posts back:
Second sanity check comes later.... Next step is to figure out, based on the above CFM data, your duct sizes, based on the air flow speed (not rate! Speed. Don't confuse them), in FPM (FPM = Feet Per Minute). You must ensure that the speed (or more correctly, velocity) is less than 300 FPM at the registers, so figure your register size based on that. Then work backwards, to figure the sizes of your silencer boxes, assuming that the cross-sectional area needs to suddenly change to at least twice/half the area, in at least a couple of places.
OK, so if we go with 160 CFM, and say we want 200 FPM at the register, it appears to me that I would want my registers to be about .8 ft2 (160/200), which is about 115 in2. So register size would be something like 16"x8", which seems to be common enough. I don't know what options I have yet on duct sizes, but I think the existing ductwork is 8"x8", so about 50 in2. So I'll need to obviously do some more math but that seems to be in an ok ballpark to build the silencer boxes and double the air volume, if I'm understanding this (somewhat) correctly. I should have options on where to put them so I think I can worry about these particulars later.

Again:
Then, based on all of the above, estimate the static pressure drop that your system will create. Now for the second sanity check: if you decided that your current system CAN handle the flow rate for your studio, now you must also check if it can handle that static pressure. Right now, it is handling a certain amount of static pressure from the rest of the house, and it has a limit, a maximum rated static pressure that it can handle. If adding your studio system static pressure would take it past that limit, then you cannot use the existing system, and we get back to the same comment as before: "If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) )."
OK, I'm having trouble figuring out how to calculate the static pressure. I'm seeing that you need to know the length of the duct run, but I will have some control over that. I'm thinking it would be roughly 20 total feet with one 90 degree bend, but the calculators and search results I'm finding are like reading Greek. Any advice?

More:
That covers the actual air movement issues: Then there's the heat handling issue to deal with as well: You need to figure out what heat load your studio will produce, in terms of "sensible heat load" and "latent heat load". Sensible heat load means just the amount of pure heat put out by your gear, your lights, your equipment, your instruments, and the human bodies that will be inside the room PLUS the heat that will be in the replacement fresh air that you bring in from the outdoors.
I re-did the math, and I think a normal scenario would be closer to 7,000 btu from gear, lights, people, etc. I don't know how to calculate the load of the replacement fresh air...
The "latent heat" is related to the humidity in all of the air, that needs to be removed.
I can tell you that the numbers from the ASHRAE reference in Rod's book for Atlanta are 6.2 for latent and .9 for sensible. But I'm at a loss as to what to do with this information. I also plan on running at least one or two dehumidifiers in the basement, including one in the studio, pretty much no matter what (obviously not while tracking and mixing). I don't want to factor that in necessarily, but I figure the dryer the better in general.

So...my head is swimming even more than before, but please tell me I made some progress here :) Any help figuring out the rest would be greatly appreciated.

With all of that said, would a theoretical set up look something like this, provided the current system can handle my final needs?

1. Tap off existing ductwork with an appropriately sized silencer box and register to get air into the room
2. Have contractor install a return of the same size, with the same size silencer box and register, connected to the overall system (UPDATE after Greg's post - so no? I should install return and vent to the outside?)
3. Run a new vent outside (not connected to the existing system) to bring in roughly the same amount of air that is being removed from the return

Possibly an inline fan or two in this setup? Again, if I'm missing a clear explanation of all of this, I apologize, and please feel free to chastise me (while hopefully providing links) :)

UPDATE: Thanks Greg! I wrote this before I saw your post. I'm not sure if an HRV is an option or not yet.
danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

OK, I hope I haven't frustrated you guys into silence :)

One good update is that we are pushing back the HVAC guys, so they're not coming next week. That buys a few weeks, but unfortunately (for the studio project but fortunately for me!) we're going on a babymoon to Europe next week and the week after. So that will be awesome, then it's pedal to the metal for the next 5 months when I get home.

Any thoughts in the meantime would as always be appreciated. And I've started working on the Sketchup model in earnest, and it's coming along decently. Probably won't get one posted until I get back because I want it to be as well fleshed out as I can make it right now, with the caveat that there are some "known unknowns" still, and I'll be tweaking extensively.
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Gregwor »

Sorry about making you wait. I've been swamped!
CFM = 160, I believe. I did this by using 6 air changes an hour x 1600 cubic feet of air (200 ft2 of studio x 8 ft high) divided by 60 minutes.
:thu:
I saw in Rod's book that you need about 15 cfm per person (saw 22 on another post here) - am I understanding correctly that this would be the amount needed to dump overboard? So if I almost always have 2 people in the room, I would need to make up 30-44 CFM, or about 20-30%?
25-30% is what you should be exchanging :thu:
So how would I check this against my current system? Ask the contractor if it can handle an additional 160 CFM?
The CFM is one part of the equation (that's how much air your fan can move). However, the BTU rating of your system is what is really going to throw things for a loop.
And if we add a return (tied into the existing system?), if it can remove 30-44 CFM?
Here's another problem with trying to tie into an existing house system -- most homes are leaky, and older ones don't even have a designated stale air out system other than bathroom exhaust fans, which as you know aren't getting used very much. However, they provide yet another leaky spot in the home for the stale air to leave through. The home system typically has a fresh air intake that is FAR from 30% of the system CFM. So, if you wanted to tie into your system and have a true 30% fresh air intake, you'd have to upgrade your fresh air intake a pretty crazy amount. And if you aren't running your fresh air in and stale air out through an HRV, you'll be wasting a ton of conditioned air. An HRV that is sized for an entire home CFM at 30% will be very very expensive. Now, to rewind in my point a bit, I mentioned that older homes don't typically have a designated stale air out system. So, if yours doesn't, you'd have to implement one as your room is air tight!
OK, so if we go with 160 CFM, and say we want 200 FPM at the register, it appears to me that I would want my registers to be about .8 ft2 (160/200), which is about 115 in2. So register size would be something like 16"x8", which seems to be common enough.
:thu:
I don't know what options I have yet on duct sizes, but I think the existing ductwork is 8"x8", so about 50 in2. So I'll need to obviously do some more math but that seems to be in an ok ballpark to build the silencer boxes and double the air volume, if I'm understanding this (somewhat) correctly. I should have options on where to put them so I think I can worry about these particulars later.
You say existing ductwork -- is this existing work designated for your room area or is it going elsewhere?
OK, I'm having trouble figuring out how to calculate the static pressure. I'm seeing that you need to know the length of the duct run, but I will have some control over that. I'm thinking it would be roughly 20 total feet with one 90 degree bend, but the calculators and search results I'm finding are like reading Greek. Any advice?
This is annoying to sort out for sure. I have a pretty crazy process myself. It includes several different resources and a lot of annoying steps. The hilarious thing is that talking to several different "HVAC journeymen" they all say they never figure this out for their designs and just assume blah blah blah.
So, I bought an app called ASHRAE DFDB and in it, you can type in your elbows and such to determine their loss coefficients. This is extremely helpful for determining your loss coefficients in your silencer boxes which may have 90 degree corners with no vanes, beveled throats, rounded throats or radius heel. For our sharp 90 degree corners, I use ASHRAE fitting CR3-6. This app also gives you the air velocity through the elbows (in your case based off of the 160 CFM).
From there, I figure out the equivalent center distance of the length of duct or elbow.
From there, I also use a Rect duct to RD duct equivalent converter.
With this info, I can calculate the total friction loss, dynamic loss, and of course, adding those will give me the total static pressure. I can add up every chunk of the system. Then using the manufacturer specs, you can figure out the pressure drop across the filters and crap. Then you'll know your total in wg your fan will have to overcome.

Also, I can't remember every detail about you build, but you say you will only have one 90 degree bend? Are you saying you aren't going to have any HVAC silencers? In other words you aren't going to have any isolation?

IF you are wanting to build a room with isolation, you'll need a total of 4 large silencer boxes per room. Each one having at least 3 baffles in it. So, even if you come in either end of the silencers, you will have SIX 90 degree bends per silencer, so a total of 24 90 degree bends. If you come in and leave the top and bottom of each box, that adds another 2. So 4 boxes with 8 90's in them will be a total of 32 90 degree bends. Trust me, this adds a TON of static pressure to the system. Your best way to alleviate the static pressure caused by these bends is to have a massive cross sectional area. With this comes size of course. So, it's a catch 22! You have to design your system with as little static pressure as you can because as you can see, your in wg sure adds up fast!
I re-did the math, and I think a normal scenario would be closer to 7,000 btu from gear, lights, people, etc. I don't know how to calculate the load of the replacement fresh air...
Welcome to the party. This topic in particular is such a challenge because every site or person I've talked to lands me with values that are half or double the last calculation I did. I'm actually going to meet up with a company which will hopefully give me a legit answer on this. However, the most convincing method I've used is on this site (follow the steps):

http://www.tombling.com/cooling/heat-lo ... ations.htm

Note: their online calculator didn't work for me so I did it manually.
I also plan on running at least one or two dehumidifiers in the basement, including one in the studio, pretty much no matter what (obviously not while tracking and mixing). I don't want to factor that in necessarily, but I figure the dryer the better in general.
Not necessarily. From what I've learned, for a studio, you want to aim for around 40% relative humidity, not as dry as possible. I know a lot of people prefer like 27% or whatever, but with a properly designed system, you should be able to tweak this number to whatever you want.
So...my head is swimming even more than before, but please tell me I made some progress here :) Any help figuring out the rest would be greatly appreciated.
At least your head is swimming. My head feels like it's under water drowning every day hahaha

You're doing great!
1. Tap off existing ductwork with an appropriately sized silencer box and register to get air into the room
Balancing dampers, ductwork, 4 silencer boxes. Also, upgrade your system to provide 25-30% fresh air into it's system -- this means the entire house get 25-30% fresh air which means you're dumping a lot of conditioned air overboard so you should get a expensive ass HRV. This HRV would also serve as a designated stale air out mechanism.
2. Have contractor install a return of the same size, with the same size silencer box and register, connected to the overall system (UPDATE after Greg's post - so no? I should install return and vent to the outside?)
Returns would tie into your existing system's returns and then off that return, you'd tap in an HRV system as per the diagram.
3. Run a new vent outside (not connected to the existing system) to bring in roughly the same amount of air that is being removed from the return
It would connect to the existing system as you need your supply air to have fresh air in it. The only way to condition fresh air is to have it enter your air handler unit via the return air. So, like the diagram, you'd put an HRV in the return path.
Possibly an inline fan or two in this setup? Again, if I'm missing a clear explanation of all of this, I apologize, and please feel free to chastise me (while hopefully providing links) :)
Having multiple fans work in unison is apparently as difficult as winning the lottery. It seems the best bet is to use an HRV as their supply and return fans are in sync.
UPDATE: Thanks Greg! I wrote this before I saw your post. I'm not sure if an HRV is an option or not yet.
If you're able to find a solution that works, please share it. After many discussions and research, it seems this is about the only option that will efficiently do the job :?

If it inspires you, I'd like to share that I went to check out yet another commercial studio for me to cut drums in while I build my studio and like all of the others, it is built so incorrectly that their rooms don't even have return ducts in them. The owners say the supply ductwork is "sound proofed" yet you can hear things coming through the ducts from the other side of the building. Within 10 minutes of being in the control room (the acoustics of these places is a different story!), it felt stuffy and uncomfortable. Don't cheap out on your HVAC. If you want the most easy (but not cheap) solution, get a ductless mini split and an HRV. The ductwork is small (remember, only 25-30% of your CFM) and your HRV will take care of it!

Greg
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.
danieljvogel
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

Sorry about making you wait. I've been swamped!
Oh man, please do not apologize! The amount of help y'all are providing is just amazing, and I feel honored to receive any replies at all :)

Thanks for the clear replies to the first couple points!

Next:
Here's another problem with trying to tie into an existing house system -- most homes are leaky, and older ones don't even have a designated stale air out system other than bathroom exhaust fans, which as you know aren't getting used very much. However, they provide yet another leaky spot in the home for the stale air to leave through. The home system typically has a fresh air intake that is FAR from 30% of the system CFM. So, if you wanted to tie into your system and have a true 30% fresh air intake, you'd have to upgrade your fresh air intake a pretty crazy amount. And if you aren't running your fresh air in and stale air out through an HRV, you'll be wasting a ton of conditioned air. An HRV that is sized for an entire home CFM at 30% will be very very expensive. Now, to rewind in my point a bit, I mentioned that older homes don't typically have a designated stale air out system. So, if yours doesn't, you'd have to implement one as your room is air tight!
My house is definitely old and super leaky, and I'm almost certain it doesn't have a stale air out system. So OK, sounds like you are steering me towards an HRV :) Depending on price, that might be a solution I could afford, but I'm wondering if a single room "ERV" is an option. The one below looks damn near perfect - I could install myself, and it's not crazy expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-FV-04V ... B000XJNZ1Y

It's also supposed to be very quiet, but maybe I would still need to do a silencer box on it somehow? It's rated up to 40 CFM, so that is 25% of my 160 CFM, and it's rated to work well in Atlanta since it shuts off when it freezes, which it rarely does here. Thoughts?
You say existing ductwork -- is this existing work designated for your room area or is it going elsewhere?
When I finally post my layout this will make more sense, but there is ductwork coming off the furnace/AC that goes upstairs, and our plan would be to tap off of that, so that we don't have to run much more ductwork.
This is annoying to sort out for sure...
Oh man. That app is $130, which I could justify potentially as it is relatively inexpensive given the overall cost of this build, but I'm worried I will do all this work and since I don't know what I'm doing, end up with meaningless numbers because my math is wrong. Need to think and research more on the pressure issue.
Also, I can't remember every detail about you build, but you say you will only have one 90 degree bend? Are you saying you aren't going to have any HVAC silencers? In other words you aren't going to have any isolation?
I said the 90 degree bend because that's in the existing ductwork that we intend to use, mentioned above. Definitely planning on whatever silencers I need, but didn't think to include those as 90 degree bends.
IF you are wanting to build a room with isolation, you'll need a total of 4 large silencer boxes per room.
OK, I'm a little confused here. So is it 2 large silencers each for the intake and return? One on each leaf of the wall? I guess I was thinking it could be one large silencer per vent, but I'll do whatever the correct thing to do is.
Trust me, this adds a TON of static pressure to the system. Your best way to alleviate the static pressure caused by these bends is to have a massive cross sectional area. With this comes size of course. So, it's a catch 22! You have to design your system with as little static pressure as you can because as you can see, your in wg sure adds up fast!
I may be overly optimistic, but I think I can figure out a way to get pretty large silencers without giving up too much space, by putting them in dead zones or "outside" the room, basically taking up space from a planned non-studio storage area or the foyer. Again, this will make more sense as my layout develops. But by and large, if I don't feel confident in my pressure calculations, is it a reasonable safeguard to build very large silencers with huge cross sectional areas to minimize pressure problems?
Welcome to the party. This topic in particular is such a challenge because every site or person I've talked to lands me with values that are half or double the last calculation I did. I'm actually going to meet up with a company which will hopefully give me a legit answer on this. However, the most convincing method I've used is on this site (follow the steps):
Awesome, thanks! I will give that a shot when I have some time.
Not necessarily. From what I've learned, for a studio, you want to aim for around 40% relative humidity, not as dry as possible. I know a lot of people prefer like 27% or whatever, but with a properly designed system, you should be able to tweak this number to whatever you want.
Gotcha. I guess my point here, and with some of my other comments and issues, is that I will not be in this room 90%+ of the time, and it's definitely an option to leave the doors open to the rest of the basement while I'm not there. So everything I'm doing will be to make it safe and comfortable for while I'm in there. I feel like if I'm keeping temperature and humidity at appropriate levels while I'm not in there, the equipment will be happy and any moisture/smell/etc. issues will be minimized, because it won't be an airtight space most of the time. Is that a reasonable thing to think?
At least your head is swimming. My head feels like it's under water drowning every day hahaha

You're doing great!
:D Thank you! Swimming may be optimistic...but at least I have this site for a flotation device, to torture this metaphor ;)
Balancing dampers, ductwork, 4 silencer boxes. Also, upgrade your system to provide 25-30% fresh air into it's system -- this means the entire house get 25-30% fresh air which means you're dumping a lot of conditioned air overboard so you should get a expensive ass HRV. This HRV would also serve as a designated stale air out mechanism.
OK, I think that makes sense. I'm interested to hear what y'all think of the ERV thing I linked to above. Seems like if that could work, then I basically need to build silencer boxes for the air coming in from the existing HVAC system, and the ERV would take care of the return and fresh air component. I'm really hoping that's an option :) If not, I will ask the contractor about a whole house HRV. If it's under let's say $1,500 or so installed, I could probably swing that.
If it inspires you, I'd like to share that I went to check out yet another commercial studio for me to cut drums in while I build my studio and like all of the others, it is built so incorrectly that their rooms don't even have return ducts in them. The owners say the supply ductwork is "sound proofed" yet you can hear things coming through the ducts from the other side of the building. Within 10 minutes of being in the control room (the acoustics of these places is a different story!), it felt stuffy and uncomfortable. Don't cheap out on your HVAC. If you want the most easy (but not cheap) solution, get a ductless mini split and an HRV. The ductwork is small (remember, only 25-30% of your CFM) and your HRV will take care of it!
It definitely inspires me to know that lots of people trip up over this stuff too! ;) I'm hoping to avoid those very problems, and one way or another I will get there. I know the mini-split is an attractive option, but unless all else fails, I don't think it's in the cards for me. Contractor quoted about $3,500, give or take, and I think that is just out of my price range for this part of the build.

Anyway, thanks as always!
Gregwor
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Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by Gregwor »

I'm wondering if a single room "ERV" is an option. The one below looks damn near perfect - I could install myself, and it's not crazy expensive:
To repeat what I said in my last post, I'm pretty sure you'd have to put the unit in front of the air handler unit. I don't think you can just run it into your room as it won't be pumping conditioned air back into your space. PLUS, this will eat up a lot more room than necessary. If you tap into your system AND make more holes in your walls for the ERV, you'd need a total of 8 silencer boxes. That is just unnecessary space and headache dealing with silencer boxes.
It's also supposed to be very quiet, but maybe I would still need to do a silencer box on it somehow?
The silencer boxes aren't there attenuate the sound of the unit itself. It's there to maintain the isolation of your room.
When I finally post my layout this will make more sense, but there is ductwork coming off the furnace/AC that goes upstairs, and our plan would be to tap off of that, so that we don't have to run much more ductwork.
This won't work. That duct work is sized specifically to provide the correct amount of air to your "upstairs". You can't just tap off a branch like that. If you did want to tap off of a branch, you'd have to upsize the branch between your tap and the air handler itself to accommodate the extra air flow. So in short, you'd have to rip out what exists up until your tap, and redo it the correct size. Now, in order to determine the needed size, you'd have to first figure out exactly how they designed the system. There are several different design methods and you'd have to use the method they did.
Oh man. That app is $130
The app I got is the HVAC ASHRAE Duct Fitting Database iOS App. It sells for $15.
OK, I'm a little confused here. So is it 2 large silencers each for the intake and return? One on each leaf of the wall? I guess I was thinking it could be one large silencer per vent, but I'll do whatever the correct thing to do is.
Think of it this way: You have a sheet of drywall. It is providing you with x amount of transmission loss. You cut a hole in it. You've now lost that isolation. To "patch the hole" you need to obtain the same level of isolation you had before. Problem is, you need air to still come and go all while stopping the sound from propagating in and out of your room! THAT is where the silencer box comes into play. The silencer box will provide x amount of insertion loss, matching your old amount of transmission loss.

So, to put this into practice, let's look at your room. If you build a room in a room, you have drywall (on outer leaf), insulation, then drywall (on inner leaf). That is TWO different masses of drywall you're cutting holes in. That means you need a silencer box on each one.

You have both supply and return holes in your walls. So, that means you need four silencer boxes. The most ideal way to design your room is to have the silencer boxes live between your inner and outer leaves.
I may be overly optimistic, but I think I can figure out a way to get pretty large silencers without giving up too much space, by putting them in dead zones or "outside" the room, basically taking up space from a planned non-studio storage area or the foyer. Again, this will make more sense as my layout develops. But by and large, if I don't feel confident in my pressure calculations, is it a reasonable safeguard to build very large silencers with huge cross sectional areas to minimize pressure problems?
Remember, for your inner leaf silencer boxes, they either have to live between your leaves, or inside your room. These are the problematic ones. Draw out one on paper and check out how large it is. Remember, they need at least 3 baffles and it has to zig zag back and forth at twice the cross sectional area as it's inlet/outlet. If you have the quite standard 2 layers of 5/8" drywall for your leaves, the smallest you can make the structure of your silencer would be 1" thick MDF. You need at least 1" thick duct liner inside of the silencer. So, as an example:

- inlet = 160 CFM

- based on a 0.1 friction rate, your inlet duct size would need to be an 8" round duct

- 8" round duct = 50.27 square inch cross sectional area

- cross sectional area of your silencer box = twice the inlet. 50.27 sq in X 2 = 100.53 sq inch.

- so as an example, the inside dimensions of your box could be a 10"x10" path.
if your 10" dimension can be assigned to the value "x":
The needed inside dimension width of your box = 2x+4 = 2 x 10 + 4 = 24".
Then add the 1" MDF and 1" duct liner on each side of that: 1 + 1 + 24 + 1 + 1 = 28" wide

- the height of the box is as simple as adding the MDF and duct liner to your 10" height. So that = 14"

- the outer length of the box would be:
(4x) + 11.5" = 4 x 10 + 11.5" = 51.5"
The 11.5" I derived from:
2" for the MDF and duct liner, then x as above, then 2.5" for 2" duct liner plus 0.5" of MDF for the baffle, then x, then the 2.5 again for the second baffle, then x, then 2.5 again for the third baffle, then x again, then 2" for the other side MDF and duct liner.

SO the dimensions of each silencer box would be:
W = 28" (note, this is over 2 feet wide)
H = 14" (note, this is over 1 foot wide)
L = 51.5" (note, this is over 4 feet long)

FOUR of those. That's a lot of space! If you want to for a nice low static pressure and air velocity, you could build them like Stuart does and Y split them. So, he basically builds 1 box long box that splits in the middle and off of this Y branch, he puts one of these big boxes (like I just mentioned above) off each side! This allows him to have half the static pressure, twice the cross sectional area, and half the air velocity. It's an awesome design, if you can fit them!
Awesome, thanks! I will give that a shot when I have some time.
I have a feeling that once you run these figures, you'll realize that your air handler is not designed to provide enough BTU. It's crazy, but as far as I've learned, HVAC dorks don't even calculate the basement in their cooling loads. And they aren't going to put in an oversized unit for several reasons, the biggest one being cost!
Gotcha. I guess my point here, and with some of my other comments and issues, is that I will not be in this room 90%+ of the time, and it's definitely an option to leave the doors open to the rest of the basement while I'm not there. So everything I'm doing will be to make it safe and comfortable for while I'm in there. I feel like if I'm keeping temperature and humidity at appropriate levels while I'm not in there, the equipment will be happy and any moisture/smell/etc. issues will be minimized, because it won't be an airtight space most of the time. Is that a reasonable thing to think?
Unless you're able to fully recirculate the air in your room (opening a door does not circulate air) 6 times per hour, then you're not following the ASHRAE guidelines for your room.
If it's under let's say $1,500 or so installed, I could probably swing that.
I'm not sure what things cost where you live, but an HRV costs that without installation here. It's easy enough to do yourself though.
I know the mini-split is an attractive option, but unless all else fails, I don't think it's in the cards for me. Contractor quoted about $3,500, give or take, and I think that is just out of my price range for this part of the build.
Like all of us, you might just have to save some pay cheques for a while and get your studying and design done. By the time your design is 100% complete, you could have that extra $3500 in your build out budget ;-)

Greg
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.
danieljvogel
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to A

Post by danieljvogel »

Man, just when I think I've figured something out, back to reality :D Sounds like the ERV is probably not an option...bummer.
This won't work. That duct work is sized specifically to provide the correct amount of air to your "upstairs". You can't just tap off a branch like that. If you did want to tap off of a branch, you'd have to upsize the branch between your tap and the air handler itself to accommodate the extra air flow. So in short, you'd have to rip out what exists up until your tap, and redo it the correct size. Now, in order to determine the needed size, you'd have to first figure out exactly how they designed the system. There are several different design methods and you'd have to use the method they did.
Apologies if I wasn't being clear but my understanding is that the contractor will be doing what you describe. They are redoing most of the ductwork in the basement, so I'll make sure for the run that we tap off of (assuming this is what we end up doing) that they start with a bigger duct so they can split off for the studio, and maintain the existing size for the rest of the run. I will not be doing this work - I'll be doing the silencer boxes and possibly HRV/ERV/whatever I end up with for that solution.
The app I got is the HVAC ASHRAE Duct Fitting Database iOS App. It sells for $15.


Thanks! I will check that out - I googled it and saw the $130, not sure what's going on there.
Think of it this way: You have a sheet of drywall. It is providing you with x amount of transmission loss. You cut a hole in it. You've now lost that isolation. To "patch the hole" you need to obtain the same level of isolation you had before. Problem is, you need air to still come and go all while stopping the sound from propagating in and out of your room! THAT is where the silencer box comes into play. The silencer box will provide x amount of insertion loss, matching your old amount of transmission loss.

So, to put this into practice, let's look at your room. If you build a room in a room, you have drywall (on outer leaf), insulation, then drywall (on inner leaf). That is TWO different masses of drywall you're cutting holes in. That means you need a silencer box on each one.

You have both supply and return holes in your walls. So, that means you need four silencer boxes. The most ideal way to design your room is to have the silencer boxes live between your inner and outer leaves.
Thank you for the clear description. That, plus the explanation of sizes and Stuart's design, is very helpful.
I have a feeling that once you run these figures, you'll realize that your air handler is not designed to provide enough BTU. It's crazy, but as far as I've learned, HVAC dorks don't even calculate the basement in their cooling loads. And they aren't going to put in an oversized unit for several reasons, the biggest one being cost!
So far he is saying it's not a problem, but I still need to run several new things by him. We shall see.
Unless you're able to fully recirculate the air in your room (opening a door does not circulate air) 6 times per hour, then you're not following the ASHRAE guidelines for your room.
I hear ya. I'm not sure how one would be able to calculate that, but fwiw there will be two doors/entrances into the studio, both into my supremely leaky basement, and certainly we're not figuring this stuff out for the rest of the basement...
I'm not sure what things cost where you live, but an HRV costs that without installation here. It's easy enough to do yourself though.
Gotcha. I'll have to ask the contractor, and it might be an option for me to do it myself. But just so I'm clear, and leaving out numerous factors, and assuming that the current system can handle it, a combination of a whole house HRV, plus supply and return vents into my studio into the existing system, with appropriate silencer boxes as you describe...that would pretty much be a high level description of the plan?
Like all of us, you might just have to save some pay cheques for a while and get your studying and design done. By the time your design is 100% complete, you could have that extra $3500 in your build out budget ;-)
Fair point :) Unfortunately my timeline and budget are not going to allow me to do this 100% how I would like, but it's gonna be the best I can do under my circumstances.
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