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Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:44 am
by Mesmer
Soundman2020 wrote:
Mesmer wrote:Ah great,

here's the link to the SketchUp file of my pentagonal room with inclined ceiling.
Mesmer Room 2017 6.6MB

best regards,
-h
... And here's the link to the same model, cleaned up, organized in layers, and with the speakers and mix position geometry situated correctly for that room ... :)

http://spartanew.digistar.cl/SayersForu ... 3d-S05.skp


- Stuart -

You are such a treasure to these forums.
Thanks so much, will be taking a look right now!

minor update: I just ordered "Graphic Guide to Framing" and "The Very Efficient Carpenter" and a third one about Windows and doors. With those books and your collective guidance hopefully in a month's time or less I can start rolling up my sleeves and making the ultimate investment in this other half of my trade.

best regards,
-m

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:08 am
by Soundman2020
I just ordered ... With those books and your collective guidance
Do you also have "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais? If not, then get those too. Those are arguably the two best books available for home studio builders.


- Stuart -

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:54 pm
by Mesmer
Soundman2020 wrote:
I just ordered ... With those books and your collective guidance
Do you also have "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais? If not, then get those too. Those are arguably the two best books available for home studio builders.

- Stuart -
Greatness, I'll have to pick them up too!

So my head is still spinning from chasing down infinite details across so many threads and links. It'd be boring if I listed all the topics here, so I'll focus on the three giving me the most body-CPU over-heat issues:

ONE
So, I would summarize the Soffit collective knowledge about building approaches to them along 3 main lines:
  • Build an extremely sturdy, solid inner wall with a shelf or drawer in it, your speakers will be fixed in/on-top-of this. Then Build your outer wall leave. Sheet that outer wall, leave a reasonably wide (there are formulas) empty space were your "bevel" made of really solid dense material will frame your actual speaker. The bevel is just tall and wide enough for your specific speaker. Gaps between speaker and bevel should be no bigger than 5mm.
  • Build a Box out of solid dense material, use resilent channel and/or isolation clips and/or all other tricky joinery gadgets to decouple that box (where your speaker will be) from your front wall.
  • Using monitor stands inside the front wall, and making the solid box out of poured concrete inside the front wall were mentioned ... but let's leave that for the *really* nutty people. Not use we're *completely* sane. yes sir.
So in all, you stuff most of the available space inside the cavity that you create with fiberglass-type absorption material. BUT also make sure to leave a "convection" column that leads to venting holes near the lower part of the front wall for ingress and near the top of the front wall for egress.
Did I miss something important?

TWO
Following from going for Soffits, it seems I'll have to forgo having a fancy entry door-plus-window, and re-install the existing one shifted to the left as seen by someone entering the room. Long story short, the front 16" of the front wall are used up for the Soffit wall construct, which leaves aprox 30" for fitting a functional door.
Did I pick up your cues correctly?

THREE
The flat back wall is a fickle thing. That corner were the single pane glass window and the other windows meet ... Could a 2' diagonal superchunk style construct work there?... from my initial review it seems that gaps between the triangles and the enclosing surface affect negatively the response ... this means maybe/probably the single pane glass has to go from that corner. But also the other windows have to go? or maybe get covered like the single pane window... then the superchunks can make good solid contact with the enclosing surface?

just sharing where my headspace is at, at the moment.
best regards,
-m

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:19 pm
by Mesmer
Hey guys,

here's the Pics as requested. I've read 2 of the 3 books on carpentry I received, plus John's book cover to cover as well. I was heartbroken to read in the manual for my DSM-2 monitors that they shouldn't be Soffit installed and it's highly not recommended. I had already started to design the framing for that front wall as the sketchup I'll be uploading in the next post shows, but have to leave that aside as after considering the renovation budget I couldn't justify a Monitor upgrade at this time.

I'll have to live with that, as John says in the book. For the time being at least.

Projectwise I am still in the Design stage, although hopefully moving on to getting the hands dirty soon.
Again, as John says in the book, although I am highly eager to start building a small delay now in order to get things right is a really good investment with the best payoff. So I've just been programming a ray tracer for personal use. So the focus at the moment is 4 things:

1. waiting on some Green Glue (more on that next post)
2. getting the diagonal back wall big single pane window replaced with newer model and laminated glass (current one broken and inaccessible).
3. waiting on cheapo $50 usb calibration mike suggested right there in the REW software page to arrive (haven't got a useable OMNI in my mike closet)
4. developing an un-ambitious ray tracer for personal use (just keeps the mind busy and the emotions at bay).

all comments welcome
best regard
-M

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:13 pm
by Mesmer
Here's a Link to the latest Sketchup of the room!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/148 ... ottom9.skp

I tried to put as much information as possible in it, so many "improvements" proposed!
So guys, after all your feedback, comments and or inputs, if the design is the best possible scenario within what's reachable now ... I'm ready to begin building it. I think i'd do it in two stages:

Stage 1: take care of the back-wall. This means:
  • Demo out those miami glass windows (3 x 24") and close up that big 72" x 58" (1.82 m x 1.47 m) with triple layer of the heaviest Gypsum Board availalbe (bonded with Green Glue compound so as to make it single leaf). I'd nail it straight into the cinder blocks above and below, correct? ( I would love some confirmation on the correct install procedure here).
  • Reduce the visible area of the single glass pane in the corner, closing the hole up the same way as above but with single layer of heavy Gypsum Board. The objective is to get 2' x '2' solid corner in which to eventually put a Superchunk or regular Bass Trap as in the book.
  • Getting the diagonal window replaced (it's broken now, and the ironworks on the inside of it make it so that changing the glass is impossible).
Stage 2: hire reliable family friend contractor for help doing the cinderblock buildouts. This means:
  • Swapping the current Entry Door With Sidelight assembly for a really narrow 30" door, and shifting it "back" so that the resulting corner can be filled with cinderblocks and regular finished masonry. From the mix position this is the Front Right corner.
  • Domolition of the cornermost miami glass window panel on the opposite corner, and filling the whole up with cinderblocks and regular finished masonry. From the mix position this is the Front Left corner.
If anything I've mentioned doesn't ring true, or seems that it could be better or anything, please share your ideas with me.
This is a critical time where I'll start spending the real moneys! :shock:

The guiding principle with this design has been the initial help provided by Soundman, namely going for RFZ and making the back-wall as absorbent as possible. From this, placing broadband absorber assemblies at the early reflection points and being heavy handed in the back wall, Feels or Smells Like (yes that's what I'm going with :o ) it would be kind of a dead maybe lifeless room ... This is why I'm thinking of placing some fine wood paneling or real-brick tile on one of the open surfaces to try to liven things up in there.

Final comment: At the moment, I'm thinking about making the Broadband absorber panels be real 4" killers composed of 2" fiberglass semi rigid (very similar specs to 703) binded to 2" of UltraTouch recycled-jeans based insulation. I'd use 1" or 2" stand-offs to separate from wall too. Is this a good / brilliant / terrible / failure idea?

I'm providing some picture previews for anyone wishing to help out but not wanting to download the full sketchup. PS. The preview makes them load up in inverted order :-/ The picture previews make more sense when interpreted from the bottom up, then. Oh well.

best regards, and thanks for all your input,
-M

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:57 pm
by Soundman2020
I was heartbroken to read in the manual for my DSM-2 monitors that they shouldn't be Soffit installed and it's highly not recommended. I had already started to design the framing for that front wall as the sketchup I'll be uploading in the next post shows, but have to leave that aside as after considering the renovation budget I couldn't justify a Monitor upgrade at this time.
You do not need to upgrade your monitors: those are fine, and they CAN be soffit mounted!!!!

Did you read what the manual actually says? Here is the text:
Do not soffit mount or otherwise install the
speakers in an enclosed space. The speakers
require free air flow around the back panel.
Let me repeat that with the relevant part highlighted:
Do not soffit mount or otherwise install the
speakers in an enclosed space. The speakers
require free air flow around the back panel.
Read it carefully: It does not say that you cannot soffit mount your speakers. It says you cannot soffit mount them in an enclosed space! That's a very different thing. They can be soffit mounted, as long as there is sufficient air flow around the rear panel. That's the only restriction. A badly designed soffit that puts them in an enclosed space would not provide airflow. A correctly designed soffit will ALWAYS provide sufficient airflow to keep them cool.

Take a look at this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 The speakers in those soffits are also not designed to be soffit mounted. The manual says the same thing. When I designed the soffits for those, I contacted the chief engineer at the factory, explained how I was doing it, and he agreed that there was no problem doing it that way. He even gave me some tips on how to do it better for that specific model. Those speakers are rated at 800 Watts each, meaning that they are producing about the same amount of heat as a small single-bar room heater! Yet there they are, running just fine. Because there is sufficient air flow around the rear panel. And look at the results...

So as long as your soffit is correctly designed, does not fully enclose them with no venting, and provides enough air flow, then they CAN be soffit mounted. Pretty much any speaker can be soffit mounted.

- Stuart -

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:23 am
by Mesmer
Well ok, cool I want it to be possible,
my sketchup has the bottom plates for a front wall and the soffit "shelf" strategy in place I think I could manage building them no problem, my concerns were:
  • Since they WILL end up surrounded with insulation, aside from that back channel column allowing the vertical movement of hot air, it seems like the heat would keep building up inside that semi enclosed box and eventually cook them (even if the back of the unit has fresh air flowing and is kept at good temp). Can I build an oversize box inside that front wall, and have the bevel be tight against the front face of the speakers like regular soffit recommendations? does it still behave like a normal soffit installation? I'm thinking 2x or 3x the size of the speaker...
  • The switch to turn them on and off is on the back of the unit. So I'd have to look into making some sort of jig-stick or something to poke into "some hole" (probably not the very slim opening between the the front of the speaker and the bevel (5mm iirc) ... or maybe some RC servo motor finger??? ... or maybe live with switching them on and off from an interrupter in their mains AC power supply (feels like it could damage them??)
    [*} Finally I examined them more closely and remembered that they are Ported (pretty big hole) in the back... It feels like that Port is part of their tuning and sticking the speakers inside soffit box would throw off their phase alignment or other important params. Alternatively one could say I could try plugging the Port, but what effect would that have on their sound?! If I had a line with the speaker designer/engineer like you did it would be great to consult on that one. As it is, I'd feel safer just playing it safe.
[/list]

Those were the reasons I abandoned the front wall build.

The good thing is the whole stage-2 stays the same, wether we build the front wall or not. If the frontwall(+soffit installed speakers) is built, I think the corner bass traps on the front become irrelevant (they're outside the room, technically). Then the room has only one bass trap, so ... maybe make up a horizontal superchunk to reside on top of the front wall, between a horizontal plane and the inclined roof (this would be less than 90 degrees, but seems like the best available choice....

So about the back-wall, does it check out?
Is attaching 3x 5/8" Gypsum boards green glued together directly into the cement above and below with long cement screws (I think they're blue) advisable? I'm just trying to create solid surfaces for the Absorber treatments.

So about the brick or wood treatment, good idea?


thanks for all your inputs, Soundman!
-M

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:41 am
by Soundman2020
Since they WILL end up surrounded with insulation, aside from that back channel column allowing the vertical movement of hot air, it seems like the heat would keep building up inside that semi enclosed box and eventually cook them (even if the back of the unit has fresh air flowing and is kept at good temp). Can I build an oversize box inside that front wall, and have the bevel be tight against the front face of the speakers like regular soffit recommendations? does it still behave like a normal soffit installation? I'm thinking 2x or 3x the size of the speaker...
The way I do it, there's about an inch of airflow space all around the bottom and sides of the speaker cabinet itself, plus about 3 inches behind the rear panel, fed by a huge hole up through the shelf. There's no shortage of airflow. I create a "suspension" system that "floats" the speaker inside the enclosure box using Sorbothane rubber pads for separation. I carefully calculate the tensions, pressures and deflections in the Sorbothane to ensure that the speaker floats down to very low frequencies, well below the cut-off (or cross-over, if I'm using a sub as well). So there's plenty of space for air movement all around the cabinet....

Like I said: "When done correctly...." :)
The switch to turn them on and off is on the back of the unit. So I'd have to look into making some sort of jig-stick or something to poke into "some hole" (probably not the very slim opening between the the front of the speaker and the bevel (5mm iirc) ... or maybe some RC servo motor finger??? ... or maybe live with switching them on and off from an interrupter in their mains AC power supply (feels like it could damage them??)
There's no need to invent any fancy way of turning them on and off. Just have an external switch for that, probably on your desk, along with all your other gear. Use something like a Furman power controller for that: Turn everything on and off from one point. Or just hard-wire them into the distribution panel, on their own breaker.
Finally I examined them more closely and remembered that they are Ported (pretty big hole) in the back... It feels like that Port is part of their tuning and sticking the speakers inside soffit box would throw off their phase alignment or other important params. Alternatively one could say I could try plugging the Port, but what effect would that have on their sound?!
Take a look at the thread I linked you to above, for Studio Three (previously called "Monstertrax"). Those are Eve Audio SC-408 speakers in there: they are rear ported, just like yours. And they are soffit mounted! And look at the acoustic response graphs for that room... It would be very, very hard to get better response than that! :)

The bass reflex port on a speaker is NOT part of the tuning of the speaker: It's actually part of the "de-tuning" :) The only purpose of a bass reflex port is to extend the lower end of the frequency response, such that the speaker seems to be able to produce frequencies lower than it actually can. It works because it is a tuned port: It is basically a Helmholtz resonator, in reverse. It resonates at a certain frequency, which was set by the designer. So for example, of the speaker by itself without the part was able to get down to 40 Hz (hypothetically), then the designer might choose to set the resonant frequency to the bass reflex port to 34 Hz (hypothetically), thus apparently "extending" the response by a couple of notes. The reason it works is because even though the "cut-off" for the speaker by itself was 40 Hz, it is still putting out substantial energy below that (the frequency response curve "rolls off" slowly), so there is plenty of energy to trigger the resonance at 34 Hz. And when that happens, the resonance "appears" to add even more energy, thus seeming to push up the volume at that frequency: it makes the tones below 40 Hz seem louder, and thus the speaker seems to have a better frequency response than it really does.

But it's all fake! I mean, it works, but at a cost! Since that is a RESONANT device, it takes a short amount of time for the resonance to be established, and it continues for a short extra time after the driver stopped producing that note. So in reality, it "smears" the note over time: It sounds louder, yes, but it loses "tightness" because there's a delay while the resonance builds, and another delay while it dies away again. The times are very short, yes, but still long enough to make a difference. That's why reflex speakers never seem to sound as "tight" in the low end as sealed speakers. In fact, many engineers complain that they can hear the resonance itself happening, and there's even a semi-technically term for that: "chuffing". It can also produce what many people call "one note bass", where all the bass notes seem to play at the exact same frequency; so as your bass player runs up or down the scale, it all sounds like one single note, repeated. And it can also sound "boomy".

So what happens if you damp that port? What happens if you put some insulation in the end of it, such that the resonance is killed? Well, what happens is nothing! :) The resonance does not happen, there is no "smearing" of the bass, and the frequency response returns to roughly what it would have been if the bass port was not there at all. So you lose a bit of intensity in the low end... but that's no big deal at all if you soffit mount your speakers! One of the major benefits of soffit mounting is that it restores the power imbalance, increasing the entire low-end response by 6 db! And it does so naturally, without any resonance, smearing, or "chuffing" or "booming". The reason for this is also interesting:...

For any object, tones where the wavelength is significantly smaller than the object will get reflected off it, and notes where the wavelength is significantly larger than the object will be partly reflected and partly wrap around it: For a speaker, that means that notes where the wavelength is smaller than the dimensions of the box will only go forwards, into the room, and notes where the wavelength is larger than the dimensions of the box will go out on all sides. So high frequencies will be focused in one direction, like a spotlight shining at you, and lows will go out in all directions, like a balloon expanding around the speaker. But what does that mean in terms of power? It means that ALL of the power put out by the speaker in highs goes towards your head, but only HALF of the power in the lows goes to your head: the other half goes behind the speaker: it wraps around "backwards". So there is an inherent "power imbalance" between highs and lows. Only half the lows get to you. In decibels, that means that you get 6 dB less in the lows than in the highs (half the power). The point where things change over from "spotlight beam" to "expanding balloon" is governed by only one thing: the smallest dimension of the front panel of the speaker, which is technically referred to as the "baffle". The wavelength that corresponds to the width of the baffle is the mid point: all shorter waves shine forwards, and all longer waves wrap around backwards. So, since there is a jump in the frequency response curve at that point, this whole effect is called the "baffle step response", because it looks like a "step" in the frequency response. Actually, it's not really a "step": just a change in the curve.

To compensate for the "baffle step response" problem, all speaker manufacturers put twice as much power into the lows as the highs, and they have a cross.over circuit that carefully applies just the right amount of power to each driver, following the exact opposite curve of the "baffle step response" curve.

But soffit mounting does that for you! It solves the power imbalance problem naturally! It removes the baffle step completely, since the front panel of your soffit acts like a giant baffle that is bigger than all the wavelengths. Technically, it is called an "infinite baffle". And since it solves the problem naturally, there are no drawbacks, only benefits. And since you no longer need the complicated circuitry and double-extra power inside your speaker, you can turn that off. That's why most good speakers have a control on the back, called something like "room correction" or "bass roll-off" or "bass tilt" or something like that. It allows you to remove the correction that the manufacturer had to put inside, since you don't need it any more. It also means that the speaker runs cooler, since it does not need to put out twice as much power in the low end.... :)

As I mentioned, the Eve SC-407s in that thread I linked you to are not rear-ported, and are not even supposed to be used that way, in soffits. But I spoke to the chief designer at Eve Audio, explained how I intended to do it, and he agreed with me that it would work just fine. He did not object, and even gave me some tips on how to do it more efficiently. A very helpful guy. And fantastic speakers.

So that's the looooooong explanation: You can soffit mount rear-ported speakers, if you do it right. You need to allow for sufficient cooling, but since the power amps only need to run at a lower level due to the power imbalance correction, they will be running cooler anyway. And if the bass reflex port is on the back, you need to damp it, in one way or another (not "plug" it! Just damp it). That's the only difference, as compared to other speakers. The only speakers that you cannot soffit mount, are ones that have extra drivers on the sides, top or bottom.

I used to think that it was impossible to soffit-mount rear ported speakers. Then later I thought it was just a bad idea and really hard to do. But now I know better: it can be done, and it's not that hard, once you understand the issues. The proof that it works extremely well is right there in that thread: Look at the acoustic response graphs, and you'll see how well it works! If you can find a room that has better, flatter, cleaner response than that, then I'd love to see it! And yet those speakers are rear-ported, and meant to be mounted horizontally, not vertically... :)
If I had a line with the speaker designer/engineer like you did it would be great to consult on that one.
I'm here! John is here! Glenn is here! Andre is here! Others are here! :)
If the frontwall(+soffit installed speakers) is built, I think the corner bass traps on the front become irrelevant (they're outside the room, technically).
Nope! The bass traps above an below the speaker section are NOT outside the room! The SPEAKER is outside the room, but the bass traps are not. The center section, where the speakers are mounted, constitutes the infinite baffle that puts the speaker outside the room, but the rest is still inside. There's a very large air gap down next to the floor, normally 12" or so high and the full width of the soffit, which exposes the hangers to the room. That's also where the cooling airflow comes from, under the speaker. And there's another large space above the speaker, which can be used for additional bass trapping.
Then the room has only one bass trap, so ... maybe make up a horizontal superchunk to reside on top of the front wall, between a horizontal plane and the inclined roof
It's a small room: it will need LOTS of bass trapping. As much as you can fit inside, in fact. The smaller the room, the more bass trapping you need. It is impossible to put "too much" bass trapping in a room. In Studio Three (which is a fairly large room) there's a huge amount of bass trapping above the soffits, an along the side walls (wall/ceiling corner), and in the vertical corners, and on the rear wall, and under the raised platform where the client couch is.... And even then, it's not enough. I would have liked to put more in, but there's no more space!
Is attaching 3x 5/8" Gypsum boards green glued together
:shock: Nope! despite the name, "Green Glue" is not glue. It is not adhesive. You cannot use it to stick things together. That is NOT what it is for! It is an acoustic damping compound. Technically, it is a visco-elastic polymer that acts as a constrained layer damping material between two layers of drywall (or plywood, OSB, MDF, etc). But it is not glue.
directly into the cement above and below with long cement screws
Why do you want to put drywall on your cement walls? For what purpose?
I'm just trying to create solid surfaces for the Absorber treatments.
The cement is not a solid surface? What is that wall surface like now? If it is cement, then that's all you need. Paint it with masonry sealer ("sellante de cal") to seal the porous surface, and you are done.

The rear wall of your room will never be seen again: You will have very large superchunks in the corners, floor to ceiling, and the rest of the wall will be covered with 6" of fiberglass or mineral wool insulation: It does not matter what the wall looks like behind that... :)

- Stuart -

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:24 am
by Mesmer
Great!
thank you Stewart for putting so much passion and energy into your responses.

Regarding the flush mounting soffit assembly, I was threading along very old memories from my DSP class some 10 years ago. My very hazy memory spoke to me about the speaker cabinet design, I seemed to remember that whole "radiators push out the same wave going out to the front, inverted in phase towards the back" and long story short those contrarian waves bounce around inside the speakers. When they are ported, as you explained in the form of resonators, then that was a consideration in the design of that bouncing around. Such that plugging it (which you very clearly explained is not the right approach, more like dampen it so that the resonance can't trigger) messes with the intended designed bouncing around inside the cabinet. I'm just trying to explain to you where my hesitation was coming from.
Anyway this is a moot point, since, you have very professionally dismantled all those points, so I am now building them and no one's gonna stop me!

There are two things I think got lost in the translation, and I'd like to clarify.

1. About the bass traps in the front of the room. The space I was thinking about is the front left and front right corners. As I proposed they'd be made 2 feet in length, cinder blocks each side of the triangle. Then I'd fill them with UltraTouch or Roxul or the best available fiberglass either in superchunk fashion or like the ones in the book. What I was now trying to work through was this: Those corners would now be behind the Gypsum/Sheetrock of the front wall, behind the frame for the whole thing including the Flush mounting soffits. So I was thinking, since the resulting room corners are now the ones between the new Gypsum/Sheetrock and the door on the right and the Gypsum/Sheetrock and the windows on the left, then does it still make sense to fill the original corners with insulation, if they are no longer in the room?

2. About the back wall.
Soundman2020 wrote:
Is attaching 3x 5/8" Gypsum boards green glued together
:shock: Nope! despite the name, "Green Glue" is not glue. It is not adhesive. You cannot use it to stick things together. That is NOT what it is for! It is an acoustic damping compound. Technically, it is a visco-elastic polymer that acts as a constrained layer damping material between two layers of drywall (or plywood, OSB, MDF, etc). But it is not glue.
directly into the cement above and below with long cement screws
Why do you want to put drywall on your cement walls? For what purpose?
I'm just trying to create solid surfaces for the Absorber treatments.
The cement is not a solid surface? What is that wall surface like now? If it is cement, then that's all you need. Paint it with masonry sealer ("sellante de cal") to seal the porous surface, and you are done.

The rear wall of your room will never be seen again: You will have very large superchunks in the corners, floor to ceiling, and the rest of the wall will be covered with 6" of fiberglass or mineral wool insulation: It does not matter what the wall looks like behind that... :)
It's not like that!
I'm speaking about the situation arising from removing the windows in the back wall. If I take the big hammer and demolish those windows, I'm left with a big square hole. The pics that show this are titled "windows_to_be_replaced_with_gypsum.jpg" and "back_wall_window_window_corner.jpg". What I am saying is that, as best as I can tell, the best approach after removing the windows is to take a couple of 4x8 panels and attach them to the remaining wall. This happens to be the 3' of cinderblock/cement below the hole and 2' above the hole. So as it currently stands, I'd take the correct screws (don't know which ones yet) and screw the Gypsum or Sheetrock panels directly to the available surface (above and below). The Green Glue compound in this case is just a minor provision to try to improve the isolation provided by the triple gypsum stack. Seen from the outside in, that same wall is one of the two walls forming the corridor entrance to the Whole House ... this is why aesthetics come into play and why the plants are there. So my original question was along the lines of, for the purpose of attaching the 4x8 and forming that solid back wall, is screwing into cinderblock the best approach? or maybe better with high powered nails? or maybe just Liquid Nails and be done with it?


Hey man, thanks for all your support regardless. Please don't misinterpret the wordiness for bad attitudes; ya know all these things are prone to have so many little details that just throws most everybody off in wrong semantics or directions. :D Again, thanks and hopefully some action shots soon!

-M

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:11 am
by sxx
I create a "suspension" system that "floats" the speaker inside the enclosure box using Sorbothane rubber pads for separation. I carefully calculate the tensions, pressures and deflections in the Sorbothane to ensure that the speaker floats down to very low frequencies, well below the cut-off (or cross-over, if I'm using a sub as well). So there's plenty of space for air movement all around the cabinet....
Hey Soundman2020 that's really interresting!
Could you please explain how do you calculate that?

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:54 am
by Soundman2020
Hey Soundman2020 that's really interresting! Could you please explain how do you calculate that?
Unfortunately, its a proprietary system that I have developed and refined over the years for my paying customers, and I'd really prefer not to just throw it out in public, for free! It also goes along with the soffit design that I have developed. The two are sort of interconnected, and work together.

I hope you understand why I don't feel comfortable giving away years of hard work like that.

But here's one room where it was used: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 That gives you an idea of how well it works.

The principle is simple: Sorbothane pads at strategic locations to support the speaker, and carefully calculated to provide the correct frequencies and isolation, plus an adjustable tie-down system for precision fine tuning.

- Stuart -

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:33 am
by sxx
Of course, I fully understand, actually I was expecting that kind of answer :wink:
BTW, the studio you realized is really awesome aesthetically and technically, congratulations for that!

Re: Analysis Paralysis -- Advice on Design please thanks

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:24 pm
by Soundman2020
BTW, the studio you realized is really awesome aesthetically and technically, congratulations for that!
:oops: Thanks! The final results are actually even better than you see on those graphs... We did a bit more work after Rod posted that... I really should update that thread with the final graphs.

- Stuart -