Design of control room for project/home studio asymmetry..

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

Hi,
Sorry for posting so many things without giving chance to answer, but I don´t know how much time I will have in the next few days.

Soundman2020 wrote:Stacked concrete block is a cheap and easy way to do it.
I still have these:
stones_001.jpg
stones_002.jpg
stones_003.jpg
30x10 cm.

I could build a stand out of them, and if I don´t get the correct height, add some wood plate to the bottom.
Easiest way would be, to go 30 x 30 cm.
But maybe I would overdo it that way?
They would be really heavy, and quite hard to move around, i guess.

Should I search for some smaller stones?

Soundman2020 wrote:the acoustic axis of the speaker should end up 1.2m above the floor
The room is 2.44 m high, so this is very close to 50%. (1/2 room height)
Is that OK to do?
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

I still have these:
They would work fine, yes, as log as you can figure out a way to keep them stable. Maybe just mortar between them?
The room is 2.44 m high, so this is very close to 50%. (1/2 room height)
Is that OK to do?
Not ideal, but 1.2 m is the "standard" height for studios, since it is also average ear height for most people when seated. Measure the height of your own ears above the floor when you are seated at your console in your normal chair: that's the height you want your speaker acoustic axes.

If you are concerned about this being at half the room height, then you have three basic options: 1) lower your chair and speakers a bit, 2) raise your speakers a bit and tilt them down, or 3) build a hard-backed ceiling cloud above your mix position. Any of those will work.

- Stuart -
derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

Does it make sense to fill the little holes in the stones?


Soundman2020 wrote:3) build a hard-backed ceiling cloud above your mix position.


If I think about it, the ceiling over my speakers is allready angeled, and should bring this effect naturally, right?

But I think I`m going to need a cloud in my room, anyhow :roll:


I wrote some idea about putting my noisy computer into another room at the end of the first page of this topic, any idea on that??
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

Does it make sense to fill the little holes in the stones?
Not really, no.
If I think about it, the ceiling over my speakers is allready angeled, and should bring this effect naturally, right?
Right!
But I think I`m going to need a cloud in my room, anyhow
Yup! Since the ceiling is almost certainly a first reflection point, you do need lots of absorption on it.
I wrote some idea about putting my noisy computer into another room at the end of the first page of this topic, any idea on that??
If you can do that, then it's a great idea, but you'll need to extend all the cables, which means that you need to buy extenders for some of those. USB, for example, only goes to about 4.7m. After that, you need to use a pair of boxes to convert that, and some CAT5 cable to join them.


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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

Thanks for your reply, Stuart
Soundman2020 wrote:Yup! Since the ceiling is almost certainly a first reflection point, you do need lots of absorption on it.
Should I do soft back, or try hard back, and angle it, to send the refections to my rear wall to absorb them?
Soundman2020 wrote:If you can do that, then it's a great idea, but you'll need to extend all the cables, which means that you need to buy extenders for some of those. USB, for example, only goes to about 4.7m. After that, you need to use a pair of boxes to convert that, and some CAT5 cable to join them.
4.7 m is within reach.
Actually, I allready did the hole, and its working out fine. I just need longer VGA video cable to my computer monitor now.

And now that I don´t hear that noisy computer anymore, I suddenly realize how noisy my MOTU 24io is ^^ :horse:
But its ok, MUCH better than before!

The other thing:
I built my speaker stands (will send some pictures, when I have time ^^)

So I´m ready to start measuring now, but I´m not 100% sure what to go for.

Rod suggests not to use waterfall plots.
And I guess, checking symmetry between the speakers doesn´t make sense without the treatment,
its all about the lo freqency response of the room now, right?

So I gues I should do Bode Response curve?

I use Acoustisoft R+D

- Which frequency Range should I check? From the bottom of my speakers (around 30 hz) to where?
- what gate time should I use?
- NO octave smoothing, right?
- should I check left and right speakers?
- Rod suggests in his book doing average measurements around the listening position, should I do that? (I also marked exactly one position at the listening spot, to check my future treatment with repeatable measurements)

Any other things I should measure now?
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

I use Acoustisoft R+D
They haven't updated that software in years, and it is getting to be rather dated. I bought it too, years ago, but I have now abandoned it. I'm using REW now, which is free and much better, IMHO. You can download it from Home Theater Shack.
- Which frequency Range should I check? From the bottom of my speakers (around 30 hz) to where?
With REW, run the entire spectrum, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Then we'll just focus on the parts of the spectrum that need more detail, as needed.
So I gues I should do Bode Response curve?
- what gate time should I use?
With REW, no need to worry about that. Just use the standard settings and you'll get valid readings, for the vast majority of situations.
- NO octave smoothing, right?
Correct. But that's a display function, not an analysis function, so it doesn't matter what you set it to: you can always change that later as needed, to see your data in different ways.
- should I check left and right speakers?
Yes. Do one compete analysis for the left speaker, and another for the right speaker, then a final one for both speakers. REW allows you to overlay the data from multiple tests, any way you want. That alone can be very revealing.
And I guess, checking symmetry between the speakers doesn´t make sense without the treatment,
its all about the lo freqency response of the room now, right?
You'll be focusing on the low frequency end, for sure, but you still need to run the entire spectrum. The first test you do is your baseline, against which you will be checking all future tests, as you add treatment. This first one is a very important test.

So it is important to have your speakers set up exactly in their final location, perfectly symmetrical, and to also have the measurement mic set up in the exact location of the listening position. In other words, set up up where your head will be when mixing. And take several very careful distance measurements from the tip of the mic to the walls, floor and ceiling: you MUST get the mic back to that exact location, very accurately, for all future tests. If not, you won't be able to compare your new readings against your baseline. The readings will still be valid, of course: just no longer comparable, so you will not know what effect the treatment is having.
I also marked exactly one position at the listening spot, to check my future treatment with repeatable measurements)
Great! Don't lose the paper where you noted down the location of the mic!
Rod suggests not to use waterfall plots.
I'm not sure why that would be. Maybe Rod was talking about the Acoustisoft software: I never did have much luck with waterfall plots in that. But with REW, the analysis tools for waterfalls are very useful, and can reveal where your modal issues are. If you don't use waterfall plots, then it's not so easy to visualize the time-domain issues in the room.
- Rod suggests in his book doing average measurements around the listening position, should I do that?
You can if you want! You can take measurements in as many locations as you feel like, and REW will keep track of them all. You can then view them in many different ways, as needed. But once again, you must keep track of the exact location of the mic in the room for each reading, so that you can compare future readings against your baseline.


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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

Hi!
This is where my ables go to my computer ^^
setup_001.jpg
Was a good idea

This is how i built my speaker stands:
speaker stands_003.jpg
speaker stands_002.jpg
speaker stands_004.jpg
speaker stands_005.jpg
speaker stands_006.jpg
speaker stands_007.jpg
speaker stands_001.jpg
Didn´t want to use mortar, because my father didn´t want to make the stones unusable for future whatever :roll:

I just put some wood through the holes,
now they are heavy and solid,
but it´s still possible to deassamble and move them ^^

I will have to cut the top plates, to make them fit,
and then make some nice cloth or wood cover
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derpeter
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Location: Germany / NRW

Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

I did some measurements today.
See the last pic in the post above, for my setupt.

Mic at listening position
Speakers at 90°

The speakers are around 15 cm. from the front wall.

Should i put them more close, or more further away?
I heard different opinions on that.

They have a bass tilt, which can be switched to -2, -4 or -6 db.

I have -4 engaged at the moment. I also used this setup for the measurements. I guess thats OK, because I will anyhow have to use it, when the speakers are close the wall??


These are my results from REW

I made 3 tests:
left speaker
right speaker
both speakers (stereo)

This is the lo frequency response for the 3 graphs.
lo freq response listening position no smoothing.jpg
The really big issues are 50 hz and 80 hz

At 40 and 68 hz, there is a little difference between left and right speaker

Here is the response 20 - 20.000 Hz, with 1/12 octave smoothing:
whole response 1 12 smoothing.jpg
Most frequencies seem to be within a 5 db range, but
500 - 1.000 hz need to be brought down
100 - 200 hz need to go down
The big 50 Hz peak has to go down


Here is the impulse response of the left speaker
impuls response left speaker.jpg
I´m not really sure how to interpret this...

this is RT 60 reading:
rt 60.jpg
decay rate:
decay rate.jpg
And Waterfall for left, right and stereo:
waterfall left speaker.jpg
waterfall right speaker.jpg
waterfall stereo.jpg
Easy to see the ringing of the modes at 50 and 100 hz...

Please have a look and give me your opinion on this.
Is there anything else I should measure, or maybe change the time/freq range in the waterfalls, etc?

Peter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

They have a bass tilt, which can be switched to -2, -4 or -6 db.
I have -4 engaged at the moment.
I would set that to -6 dB and try again. Also, it seems that you are not doing the test at high enough volume: turn up the volume until you are getting at least 85 dBC, and 90 would be better: Measure that with a sound level meter, not with REW (unless you have already calibrated REW to a sound level meter).
Should i put them more close, or more further away?
I heard different opinions on that.
If you are not soffit-mounting your speakers, then the best place is to have the speakers at least 2 meters away from the walls (both front wall and side walls), but in your room that is impossible. The next best thing is to have them right up against the front wall, with just thick absorption between the speaker and the wall. However, yours are rear ported, which complicates things a bit: I would leave about 10cm between the rear of the speaker and the absorption panel on the front wall.

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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

Thanks for the fast reply Stuart,
you are a great help!
Soundman2020 wrote: Measure that with a sound level meter, not with REW (unless you have already calibrated REW to a sound level meter).
I did that, but only to 75 db, I think I read that number somewhere :oops:

I will do a new measurement tomorrow.
Soundman2020 wrote: I would leave about 10cm between the rear of the speaker and the absorption panel on the front wall.
OK, so lets say 10cm to give room to the rear port bass, and maybe 10 cm for additional absorption,
so somewhat around 20 cm should be ok?
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

I did that, but only to 75 db, I think I read that number somewhere
85 dB is the "standard" calibration point (if there is such a thing!) At least, that's what modern cinema speakers are calibrated for. It's also the recommended listening level for control rooms, and figures prominently in ITU and EBU documents.

You could use 75 dB, if your room was really, really well isolated with an NR curve below about 25. But that is unlikely to be the case. The reason is simply that the impulse response measurement (on which all the others are based) needs to have a good, clean decay on it for at least about 30-35 dB below the initial level, in order for all the rest of the time-domain readings to be valid. If you start at 75 dB, then you need a noise floor below about 40 dB. If not, then the quiet end of the decay gets lost in the noise: Not just the ambient room noise: mic noise, pre-amp noise, digitizing noise, the noise you yourself make in the room, the noise made by the equipment you use to measure, HVAC noise, etc. 1/2 dB there, 1 dB here... They all add up. But if you start at 85 dB, or even higher (wear hearing protection, of course), then the software can "see" a good decay from that point until well above the noise floor, so the time domain readings are a lot more accurate.
OK, so lets say 10cm to give room to the rear port bass, and maybe 10 cm for additional absorption, so somewhat around 20 cm should be ok?
Yup! :)

The "mush" on your graphs in the low end is most likely due the untreated room itself. I guess it sounds a bit "boomy" in there right now? That should change once you start putting the treatment in place. But don't expect astounding results: the room is small and has a strange shape, so it won't be perfect. There are physical limitation about what can be accomplished in there. But it sure can be a lot better than it is now!


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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

OK,
REW suggested to calibrate the software to a spl meter at 75 db, but the actual measurements should be done louder ^^
Soundman2020 wrote: But don't expect astounding results
I expect it to be at least better than last time, when I treated without any measuring, just hoping for the best ;-)

And I expect to learn a lot in the process, so I can use this knowledge when I build a "real" room somewhere else in maybe 5 years or so... 8) :mrgreen:


I did some new measurements, I hope these are more usable?

I also have a desktop tilt, for compensating reflections by desks, etc., working around 160 hz.
I activated it on some measurements (see graphs). The response between 100 and 200 hz seems to be a little bit more flat this way. But strangely, the highs seem to roll of a little stronger with the switch engaged :?
lo freq response listening position no smoothing_k.jpg
whole response 1 6 smoothing_k.jpg
rt 60_k.jpg
impuls responsestereo_k.jpg
waterfall stereo_k.jpg
waterfall left speaker_k.jpg
waterfall right speaker_k.jpg
waterfall stereo_tilt.jpg
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

Something just doesn't look right on those waterfall plots: They decay seems to be linear, which is really hard to explain! I suspect that there is something not being done right. It's also hard to explain why you would be getting 500ms RT-60 times at 8 KHz.

Please can you post the actual data file from REW, so I can download it and take a closer look.

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derpeter
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by derpeter »

:?
This really seems to be wrong....

please try to download the file here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/26udpbml4u9x9 ... 012.k.mdat

Thanks for your help, Stuart!!!
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Re: Design of control room for project/home studio asymmet

Post by Soundman2020 »

Yeah, there's definitely something wrong: the impulse response graph is showing that your ambient level is about 100 decibels below the impulse level, which is VERY hard to believe! There's no way that your room has a noise floor that low, and there's no way that those Genelecs are producing such extreme levels as to account for this.

REW is also showing straight-line linear decay across the entire spectrum, which is just as hard to believe, especially when the RT-60 graph shows the exact same time for 100 Hz and 2 kHz.

The only thing that looks reasonable is the simple frequency response curve. Everything else is strange.

Did you do the calibration procedure for REW? Are you sure that you kept the mic and speaker in exactly the same position in the room for all of the measurements?

I'd suggest that you carefully check your signal path, mic, cables, interface, routing and everything else.

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