New studio build, preplanning research

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by Soundman2020 »

I'm interested in plain old cement sheeting (called "blueboard" here), rendered for a nicer appearance.
Is that something like fiber-cement board? Comes in panels the same size as drywall, but twice as heavy, and is a grayish color? If so, that will work very well. It is much higher density than drywall (probably around double), but it is a bot more expensive. It's a good choice, though, since you can get away with thinner panels for the same amount of isolation (or the same thickness, for more isolation!).
Also, with regards to roof space, I have read that the absense of a ceiling (ie leaving the roof trusses and so forth exposed) throws out all the ratio calculations.
Probably, but not necessarily. Depends on the slope of the roof, and other things. But if the roof slope is not too steep, and the overall room shape is still approximately rectangular, then you can use the average dimensions to get a rough idea of modal behavior. The axials for width and length will still be accurate, but the axials for height, plus the tangentials and obliques will not be so accurate.
I'm interested in leaving the roof space at least partially exposed (for appearances, mainly, and I can fit a ceiling later on if needs be). Any thoughts on this?
That will blow your isolation plans out of the water! If all you have up there is the roof itself, then your total isolation for the entire room, will probably be somewhere in the mid 20's. Maybe around 25 dB, if you are lucky. That's not much at all. Less than a normal house wall. That depends on the roof itself, of course: it might be a bit higher or a lot lower, depending on how it is built.

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stk
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stk »

Soundman2020 wrote:
I'm interested in plain old cement sheeting (called "blueboard" here), rendered for a nicer appearance.
Is that something like fiber-cement board? Comes in panels the same size as drywall, but twice as heavy, and is a grayish color? If so, that will work very well. It is much higher density than drywall (probably around double), but it is a bot more expensive. It's a good choice, though, since you can get away with thinner panels for the same amount of isolation (or the same thickness, for more isolation!).
Yep, that's the stuff. Great to hear it's a good choice. Not the nicest looking finish but can be painted or rendered. Also pretty affordable here, and easy to hang.
Soundman2020 wrote:
Also, with regards to roof space, I have read that the absense of a ceiling (ie leaving the roof trusses and so forth exposed) throws out all the ratio calculations.
Probably, but not necessarily. Depends on the slope of the roof, and other things. But if the roof slope is not too steep, and the overall room shape is still approximately rectangular, then you can use the average dimensions to get a rough idea of modal behavior. The axials for width and length will still be accurate, but the axials for height, plus the tangentials and obliques will not be so accurate.
I'm interested in leaving the roof space at least partially exposed (for appearances, mainly, and I can fit a ceiling later on if needs be). Any thoughts on this?
That will blow your isolation plans out of the water! If all you have up there is the roof itself, then your total isolation for the entire room, will probably be somewhere in the mid 20's. Maybe around 25 dB, if you are lucky. That's not much at all. Less than a normal house wall. That depends on the roof itself, of course: it might be a bit higher or a lot lower, depending on how it is built.
Interesting stuff.
As mentioned previously, not so concerned about isolation (honest!). I think we will give it a try with ceiling trusses in place, but no ceiling, and if the acoustical performance suffers I can fit a ceiling in later.

Thanks again.

Skye
relgycandy
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by relgycandy »

I've answered your questions inline, to the best of my abilities.



[SPAM SIGNATURE DELETED BY MODERATOR - AND NOTED THAT SPAMMER IS A PARROT!]
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by cryptonym »

Great thread thanks soundman2020! Skye I am also looking at durrapanels which you mentioned for a backyard type studio. FYI soundman, they are using them in lots of large projects listed on their website, but also in cinemas (& iMax) specifically for their acoustic properties apparently. There is a downloadable infosheet on the cinema wall page which contains a graph of sound absortion at different frequencies with a single (50mm) leaf wall, so not completely flying in the dark. They recommend double leaf. Certainly ticks the 'green' box!
http://www.ortech.com.au/durra-panels/durra-panel
cheers
ps I'm not a rep!
durra graph.jpg
Soundman2020
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by Soundman2020 »

Interesting. How does it compare in price vs. 2 layers of 16mm drywall?

The graph is interesting, but doesn't show the actual wall construction or cost, and also the Y axis is marked with unusual units: Do you know how "Sound Reduction Index" relates to the more common "Transmission Loss"? 45 dB at 100 Hz is surprising.

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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stevev »

hey Skye,

I thought i'd add a few bit's of info as I live 'just up the road' from you. Mostly to do with budget. My build is in the final stages and is not much larger than yours and has come in at around 50K and that's with me doing the majority of the work myself all the way from excavation, concrete, carpentry, plastering etc. I understand that you don't need the isolation of a 'tracking' room and the neighbours aren't an issue, but I don't think 10K will get you there unfortunately.

I'd guess the concrete slab alone is in the 4-5k mark if you're getting a contractor to do it. Maybe 2.5K for a carpenter to do the external frame and trusses. Add 1.5K for the trusses themselves, and another 2-3K for a roofing plumber to do the roof and gutters and you're probably at around 10K. You still need external cladding and electricity before you can be weather proof and plug in any gear and even then you're basicaly in what will be a very cold shed.

I wonder whether a pre-fab steel shed is the go. The concrete slab doesn't have to be as industrial for one of those as it does for a 'normal' building. You might be able to get the shed and slab done for around 5K which would leave you with 5k to play with for electrical, heating/cooling, insulation and maybe even some internal acoustic treatment.

And just so you know, I put my build budget at 25K when I started :roll:
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stk »

Ah, so it's been a while (a baby in your life will do that, I've found!) but this project is definitely still on the cards.
I'll take a moment to say thanks to all who have offered their invaluable insight, especially Soundman2020 and stevev (good to hear there's a local here, would love to check out your build some time).

stevev, I have come to realise that my original budget was indeed hopelessly optimistic :)
Anyway I had a meeting with a draftsman recently who gave me a rough estimate more than my original budget, but less than your spend, and definitely doable.

Anyway my next question is regarding flooring. I understand that a concrete slab is the preferred approach, to avoid the resonant drum effect.
However, I am a little concerned about freezing to death - as my fellow Central Highlander will attest, it's been a frosty winter in these parts, and the idea of sitting on a refrigerated block for 12 hrs a day is less than appealing. My budget definitely won't stretch to in-floor heating, the family home gets preference over that!

A friend (who has done a lot of building, albeit not sound studios) suggested a plywood floor on brick footings, but glueing several layers of marine ply (and perhaps blueboard/cement sheeting) for rigidity/density. Is this a viable option? Just how many layers would you have to glue to get something that won't rattle and ping like a drum?

And while I'm at it with the questions - stevev, if you're around, how did you go about heating your studio?

Thanks again, and cheers,
Skye
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hey Skye, congratulations on that "baby in your life "!!!! Yup, they certainly do seem to have an effect on your plans... not to mention your sleeping schedule... :)
Anyway I had a meeting with a draftsman recently who gave me a rough estimate more than my original budget, but less than your spend, and definitely doable.
Excellent! A realistic budget is a key part of building a studio. and the general rule here is to take your original budget, add yesterday's date, multiply by a random number between 2 and 50, divide by a small fraction, then add a zero on the end, just in case. That normally gets you close.... :lol: :) :D :) :roll: :!:

More seriously, I'm sure your draftsman has a better grasp of costs than most people, but if he hasn't done a studio before then he's probably still underestimating a bit. There are "things" and "techniques" in studio design that aren't done the same way as for a typical house, office, shop or school. So I would add about 10% to 20% on top of what he suggested, and you'll probably be in the ball park. Not trying to scare you! Just being realistic.
I am a little concerned about freezing to death - as my fellow Central Highlander will attest, it's been a frosty winter in these parts, and the idea of sitting on a refrigerated block for 12 hrs a day is less than appealing. My budget definitely won't stretch to in-floor heating, the family home gets preference over that!
Then I would suggest a suitable laminate wood flooring on top of the concrete, fairly thick, with a good thermal underlay, also fairly thick. The underlay will probably be something like 5mm, and the laminate flooring about 10 mm or so. That doesn't sound like much, but unless you live at the south pole, it should be more than enough. The HVAC system will take care of keeping the room air at the right temperature and humidity, so the room will feel just fine and comfortable.
Just how many layers would you have to glue to get something that won't rattle and ping like a drum?
Math time! The density of concrete is about 2200 kg/m3, so a 15 cm (6") slab will weigh about 330 kg/m2 (68 PSF). The density of marine grade plywood is about 500 kg/m3, so in order to get the same surface mass as for a concrete slab (330 kg/m2), you would need to make it about 66 cm (26") thick, which works out to about 34 layers of 19mm (3/4") plywood.... :) :shock:

The numbers don't lie.... :wink:

It's not about "rattling and pinging", but rather about the resonance of a lightweight floor suspended over a cavity. ALL materials have a natural resonant frequency, which depends on several things but is mostly related to the mass (surface density, linear density, etc.). If you hang a mass on a spring, then you create a second resonant system the resonates at a frequency defined almost entirely by the mass and the "resilience" of the spring. A floor suspended over a cavity is exactly that: The floor itself is the mass, and the air in the cavity is the "spring" (we don't usually think about air as being "springy" from our point of view as humans, but for sound waves it sure is!). So you have two resonances going on there: that of the floor material itself, and the much greater resonance of the tuned "mass-spring" system. The "tuning" is set by two things only: the surface density of the floor (kg/m2) and the depth of the air cavity. Increase either of those, and the resonant frequency goes down. Resonant theory says that in order for that to not be a problem in your studio, you need to get the resonant frequency down below 1.414 times the lowest frequency of interest. In reality, that's not good enough, and you have to get it down to no more than half the lowest frequency. So if you want to isolate the entire audible spectrum (20 Hz to 20 kHz), then you need to get a resonant frequency of under 10 Hz. That's pretty hard to do, unless you use very massive materials, or very large air gaps. If you are interested, the equation for calculating the fundamental resonant frequency of a panel by itself is:

Fr = 0.45 * vL * b[(1/l)^2 + (1/h)^2]

where b is the panel thickness (meters), l and h it's length and height (meters) and vL is the longitudinal velocity of sound in the partition (m/s) given by vL = [E / (p * (1 - s^2))]^1/2 [where E is Young's modulus of elasticity, s is it's Poisson ratio and p it's density].

(It gets a bit complex...)

Fortunately, the equation for calculating the fundamental resonant frequency of such a floor is very simple: F = 60 / SQRT (M * D) Where M is the surface density (kg/m2) of the floor materials, and D is the depth of the air cavity in meters. (The number 62 is a constant that encompasses things like air density, air temperature, the speed of sound in air, those other weird terms above, and a few other things that don't change much.) So for a single sheet of 19mm plywood over a 10 cm cavity (depth of a 2x4), the frequency would be about 67 Hz. Add another layer and it goes down to about 46 Hz. Add two more layers (total 4 layers) and it goes down to 32 (can you say "bass guitar"). Add ANOTHER 4 layers (total of 8!) and it is down to 21 Hz. Add another 8 layers, (total 16!!!), and you get down to 15 Hz. Finally double that lot (32 layers now....) and you get down to 10 Hz. Bingo! But watch that step at a the edge, as you walk out the door! :)

OK, so you could use a deeper cavity and less mass, but it's still not much fun: for a 20cm cavity (2x8 joists) you could get by with just 19 layers of plywood on your floor, and for 30 cm depth (2x12 joists), you'd need a paltry 13 layers. Bigger joists? Sure. Let's try massive 20" joists (50 cm). Much better! You only need 8 layers now!!! :shot: :!:

That's why I just have to giggle a bit when I see those knuckleheads over on YouTube frantically "floating" their floors on 2x4 studs with a couple of layers of thin plywood on top, and swearing that they are doing Something Incredibly Useful for their room.... If only they would do the math.... sigh! :roll:

On the other hand, a concrete "slab on grade" (poured directly on top of Mother Earth, with a waterproof membrane, of course, and probably sand/gravel too) is the best darned floor you can get for a studio. Best in terms of isolation, and also for actual room acoustics. You have the mass of the concrete, no air gap at all, and the entire planet acting as damping! It's hard to improve on that!!!!

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stk
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stk »

Thanks again for the great info Soundman2020, and the maths lesson :)
I was fairly convinced that the general consensus would be "stick with concrete slab", but just wanted to get some advice on possible alternatives.

I'll look into the laminate flooring.
FWIW, at least in the medium term I will not be installing a full HVAC system - I just don't have the money for it, and can't justify the expense as this is a personal project studio, not a commercial venture. And besides I cannot stand air conditioners! Ventilation will be provided the "old fashioned" way.
I realise this is less than ideal for acoustical reasons, but that's what I have to work with. I've made a lot of great mixes in non-sealed rooms, so I'm going to have to work with it.

Another question, about windows this time (to the outside world, not a "studio window").
I would very much like a window to the outside - the regular studio cave with no natural light makes me shudder! I like natural light and I like to be able to see outside.
I realise that regular glass has virtually no isolation properties, and I will be punching a great big hole in my sound blocking walls. But I'd still like to ask after any advice you or others may have (apart from "don't do it!") -keeping in mind that isolation *is not an issue* - only acoustic integrity.

Cheers,
Skye
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by Soundman2020 »

at least in the medium term I will not be installing a full HVAC system - I just don't have the money for it, and can't justify the expense as this is a personal project studio, not a commercial venture. And besides I cannot stand air conditioners! Ventilation will be provided the "old fashioned" way.
I realise this is less than ideal for acoustical reasons,
Well, I'd really suggest that you think this through a bit more: a lot of people who come to the forum start out with that same idea about HVAC, but once they start getting into the design, they realize that it's not a luxury: it's a basic necessity. You need to maintain a fairly constant temperature in your rooms, and more important, you need a fairly constant humidity. Equipment, mics, and instruments are sensitive to both temperature and humidity. Some condenser mics, for example, are especially sensitive to these, and their frequency response changes as the condition changes.

Even if you never plan to record anything acoustic in your studio, ever, and only mix, your equipment still need ventilation at more or less constant temperatures, and you yourself have this terrible habit, called "breathing"! You sort of need to do that several times per minute, and you need to have oxygen in your air to stay alive, so it's probably useful to bring in fresh air. And since you also exhale moisture, along with CO2 and other nasty things, it's probably a good idea to provide a path for those to leave the building...

But this doesn't need to be complicated: a simple mini-split system on the wall for keeping the temp and humidity under control, plus an inlet duct to bring in fresh air, and an exhaust duct to take out stale air, with a small, quite fan in the exhaust duct... Done.
I would very much like a window to the outside - the regular studio cave with no natural light makes me shudder! I like natural light and I like to be able to see outside. I realise that regular glass has virtually no isolation properties, and I will be punching a great big hole in my sound blocking walls. But I'd still like to ask after any advice you or others may have (apart from "don't do it!") -keeping in mind that isolation *is not an issue* - only acoustic integrity.
It's not a problem to put windows in a studio. Most studios have windows between rooms, so the engineer and artists can see each other, and some also have windows to the outside world.
keeping in mind that isolation *is not an issue*
You keep saying that, but here too you might want to re-think: I mentioned before about things like wind, rain, hail, aircraft, cars, people, etc. Even if you only ever mix in there (never record), it's still annoying to have to go back over something several times because you though you heard a problem with the hi hat, but it turned out to just be the wind outside... or you though you heard something wonky in the bass guitar... but it was just a distant helicopter flying past... or you thought you heard voices in the mix, but it was just someone talking outside... Etc.

Speaks the voice of experience: been there, done that! It's annoying, and slows you down.

And of course, if you DO plan to record in there, then "no isolation" isn't really an option.

But from what you've been saying about the materials you are thinking of using, you should be able to get pretty decent isolation.

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stk
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stk »

Thanks again for your help.

I'll have a think about the HVAC thing.
In all truth, I have been mixing in old (brick) buildings for 13 years now so I'm quite used to the vagaries of the weather (and outside noise) :)
Actually, and this may seem weird, but I don't mind a bit of bleed from the outside world.

Regarding windows, would one ideally go for (expensive) laminated & double-glazed?
Also, are there guidelines for ideal placement? Should it remain symmetrical (ie behind the speakers rather than to one side of the mixing chair)?

Regarding isolation from the neighbours, I swear on my life that it is not required. Any loud recording I do down at a studio in the city as I do not have the space or equipment up here.

The ballpark figure (and yes I'm already mentally adding 10-20%!) I got from the draftsman was for brick veneer / rockwool / drywall construction on a concrete slab.
Not a true decoupled double leaf construction, but my budget won't stretch to that.

I fully expect to do some DIY acoustic panel building (that's more my scale of DIY) to massage things into a nice room to mix in, but I'm hoping that it will be worlds better than the tiny, flimsy, rattly space I've been stuck with for the past 2 years (with a massive bass/low-mid trough, presumably because it's shooting straight out through the thin drywall/weatherboard walls).

Thanks again for all the advice, it is greatly appreciated!

Skye
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by helenctodd »

Thank you for this help..!! I have been looking for such help since long. I recently started the construction of a small separate music practice cabin for my brother. I got everything planned from my contractors but the only problem here is that I am bit confused upon the selection of roof material. There are alot of options and choices in the market and I am really very confused. Is there any type of material which will suit best for the roof of a music room.? Please reply asap. Thank you..!! :)
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by Soundman2020 »

Is there any type of material which will suit best for the roof of a music room.?
It would be better to start your own thread about your concerns with roofing, rather than tagging on to someone else's thread. But before you do that, please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)

What is the specific problem with your music room, how are the walls and floor built (provide full details of the construction method, dimensions, materials), and what are your isolation requirements, in decibels?

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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stevev »

stk wrote:And while I'm at it with the questions - stevev, if you're around, how did you go about heating your studio?
Hey Skye, i've been a bit side tracked with getting my own build completed so I havent been on the forum for a bit. My rooms are heated with Daiken air-cons. They also do air exchange which was a real bonus for me. If you're purely in a mix room you might be able to just use panel heaters like NOBO or something. Having said that, it's great to be able to walk in the studio and after running the air-con for about a minute the room starts to warm up entirely.

As for floor, you're right about the concrete, it's pretty damn cold. I was originally going to polish mine but my wife really wanted timber so I did some research. I came up with bamboo laminate as the least expensive but most suitable flooring. This stuff is all click lock, 14mm thick, and goes down on a 2mm underlay. Have a look towards the end of my thread 'dog and bear studio' in 'other studios' and you'll see it going down. At $30 per meter it's probably the best option you'll find other than concrete. I'm really impressed with it.

Congratulations on the new addition to the family and PM me if you want to come up and check out the studio sometime.
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Re: New studio build, preplanning research

Post by stevev »

stk wrote: A friend (who has done a lot of building, albeit not sound studios) suggested a plywood floor on brick footings, but glueing several layers of marine ply (and perhaps blueboard/cement sheeting) for rigidity/density. Is this a viable option?
I meant to add that even if this floor construction could be done, it wouldn't come in at anywhere near $30 per square meter. Marine ply is expensive stuff :shock:
quick, cheap or good....pick any two.
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