My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

how do I avoid having a flanking path between my inner and outer leaves, while still maintaining the integrity of the spring between them?
I'm not sure how others do it, but what I suggest is to cut the duct in the middle of the wall so that there is a gap between the two ends of the duct (a few mm or so), and wrap the gap with a strip of thick rubber (neoprene, sorbathane, etc.). Seal it all, of course.

It's the same principle as isolating your electrical conduit, just on a larger scale.

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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

Thanks for the quick response, Stuart! If I were to use neoprene, how thick should it be, do you think?
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

how thick should it be, do you think?
How thick can you get it? :)

Seriously, as thick as you afford to make it, but I wouldn't use less than about 1/2" inch.

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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

One last question: neoprene is wetsuit material, right? Could I just get a scrap of that to do this with?
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

I don't know much about wetsuits, but I'd suspect that it isn't just pure neoprene: isn't it woven in with some kind of thread, and other layers of stuff too? Not sure what the acoustic properties of that would be.

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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

Thanks, Stuart, for all your advice!

I'm kind of multitasking right now, working on silencers, door seals and my treatment plan for the live room. My plan is to have broadband resonators along the longer wall, with bass traps in the corners. The traps would be filled with Roxul AFB, stacked. They would be 15 or so inches deep at the corner x 46" long. There would be three resonators, angled at 12 degrees. Not sure of the pattern for the slats yet, but my thought is that for the live room, since there is not one single listening position, I might try to target different groups of frequencies with each resonator. The resonators would be about 8" deep at the deepest point and 4 1/2" at the shallowest point, filled with Roxul AFB. On the opposite wall, I would have bass traps in the corners again a little deeper than the other two, with the inside-out wall filled with Roxul AFB and cloth over it. The end wall adjacent to the storage room is also inside-out, and I'm planning to fill that with Roxul AFB as well and cover it with cloth. The wall adjacent to the control room is finished drywall.

A couple questions about this plan:

First if all, does it look ok for a room of this size (about 16'6" along the long wall, 14'6" along the shorter wall, and about 10' wide, with a vaulted ceiling that goes from 8' to about 10')?

Secondly, I'm really running out of money, and I'm under the impression that 703 might be preferable to Roxul AFB for a lot of this. Am I sacrificing too much absorption using the Roxul, or can I get away with it? Is there one area where I'd get the most "bang for my buck" using 703?

Thank you in advance!!
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

First if all, does it look ok for a room of this size (about 16'6" along the long wall, 14'6" along the shorter wall, and about 10' wide, with a vaulted ceiling that goes from 8' to about 10')?
Your overall plan makes sense to me, and seems sound (no pun intended!).

For a room that size, theoretically you need about 500 Sabins of absorption, meaning roughly 500 square feet of perfect absorber. Of course, there's no such things a "perfect absorber" (except for an open window), but 500 ft2 is still probably about right (actually 497 for your room, if you want to be exact!). And of course, scatter it around the room, but you are already doing that. You have about 800 square feet of wall and ceiling area, so about 60% of the total area will have some type of absorption, with 40% being reflective. HOWEVER! That's for theoretical recommendations for a control room! So since this is a live room, you can adjust that whichever way you want. Not written in stone.

The vaulted ceiling might be an issue; that might need some special attention in the treatment.
Secondly, I'm really running out of money, and I'm under the impression that 703 might be preferable to Roxul AFB for a lot of this.
Not sure about AFB, as I couldn't find any data for it n their web site, but their Safe-n-sound products seems to be OK for what you want. Not quite as good as 703 in the low end, but not shabby either.

Personally, I think you are probably fine with either.

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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

Thank you, Stuart--you just made my day!

Yeah, I'm sure I'll need to address the ceiling; planning to do some clouds once everything else is done. But for now, I've got some framing to do!

Thanks again,
Mark
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

Well, I haven't posted here for a long time, but I have slowly been chipping away at this project. First I built a "duct" to go from my silencer which lives outside the building through both leaves.
Duct.jpg
This design is based on Stuart's suggestion for addressing my concerns about a flanking path between the inner and outer leaves. Here is the duct with the neoprene spanning the gap:
duct with neoprene.jpg
I've had a 4 piece rock band in the live room and I'm amazed at how effective this silencer is! With my ear right up to the outer opening, I can hardly hear anything coming from the other side! Great to see how the ideas on this forum work in the real world.
Next I framed up the treatment for the live room. Bass traps:
bass trap NE corner.jpg
bass trap nw corner.jpg
...and resonators:
resonator build 1.jpg
resonator build 2.jpg
resonator build 3.jpg
resonator build 4.jpg
resonator build 5.jpg
resonator top.jpg
....and then installed the Roxul:
roxul install.jpg
roxul.jpg
The live room is now ready for slats and cloth. I've been focusing on the control room framing so that both rooms are at the same point in construction. More photos to follow....
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

So my first question for this phase of the project pertains to Helmholtz resonators and the vapor barrier:

To review, my wall construction is mostly inside-out on my inner leaf for both the live room and control room. the only exception is the end wall of the live room that is adjacent to the control room. I framed this in the traditional way in order to have a larger spring between the live room and control room. So, my construction is as follows: beefed-up outer leaf with unfaced insulation between the studs, with no vapor barrier. The inner leaf is built inside-out, and my plan was to do my treatment (roxul) and then cover it with plastic for my vapor barrier, and then cloth and slats. However....

I've been following Simo's thread, and learned there that installing my vapor barrier the way I've been planning would compromise the effectiveness of the Helmholtz, so now I'm not sure what to do. As Stuart says:
A slot wall is a Helmholtz resonator. It works because the "slug" of air trapped in the "neck" of the device, which is the slot itself (the gap between two adjacent slats) vibrates, moving in and out of the slot for a certain distance either side. That's why you see the "neck correction" or "effective depth correction" terms in slot resonator calculations: the slug moves in and out, BEYOND THE LIMITS OF THE SLAT, into the open air in front of and behind the slats. This area extends roughly 20% of the thickness of the slat. So, for example, if the slat is 30mm thick, then the neck effect extends for another 6mm, or 3mm each way. So the slug needs to move 3mm into the cavity, and it needs to find insulation there, to damp it! If you put "plastic sheeting with holes in it" in the way, then you are BLOCKING the movement of the slug, PREVENTING it from properly moving into the insulation. In other words, you prevent the resonator from resonating... Plastic sheeting is NOT like cloth in this aspect: cloth is open-cell and fibrous, similar to insulation, and therefore does not interfere with the movement of the air slug.
But...unless I'm misunderstanding Brien's (Xspace's) multiple posts on this subject, the vapor barrier needs to be the inner-most layer of the construction, at least in my part of the world (Seattle). If the vapor barrier is not the inner-most layer, the moisture from inside the room would be absorbed by my Roxul instead of hitting the vapor barrier first.

So Brien, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this concept. If I'm correct, I'm not sure what to do. My plan with my inside-out walls was to cover the insulation with the vapor barrier, then cloth, then slats. I'm thinking this still may be ok for broadband absorption in the live room, but for the tuned Helmholtz in the control room it would not.

Or perhaps I'm off-base on the placement of the vapor barrier(?)....help?

My main area of concern is the control room, where I'm planning to have Helmholtz resonators along both sides:
Control room vapor barrier.jpg
This is how the live room looks, also mostly inside-out. If I'm mainly planning on bass trapping and broadband absorption in this room, is it ok to have the plastic here?
live room vapor.jpg
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

I'm not sure quite how, but you seem to be confusing your isolation with your treatment. I can't quite put my thumb on what it is exactly, but that seems to be the issue.

Just to clarify:

1) The vapor battier goes INSIDE the wall cavity, between the inner and outer leaf, and as Brien has explained, it goes on the warmer side of that cavity. So in climates that are mostly hot year-round, it would probably go up against the outer leaf, whereas in climates that are mostly cold year-round, it would go up against the inner-leaf, but in both cases it still goes inside the MSM wall cavity, between the inner-leaf and outer-leaf. So it will not be visible from inside the studio, once you have the walls up and are ready to start treating.

2) Isolation and treatment are two different things: isolation is the two-leaf wall around your room, with insulation in the gap, and the vapor barrier too, if you have one. Treatment comes afterwards: once the isolation shell is completely finished, THEN you install the acoustic treatment in the room, and that treatment might include slot walls, absorption, diffusion, etc.

3) Slot walls are treatment, not isolation. If you build your walls inside-out, then the drywall is on the "far" side of the studs (facing away from the room) which makes it easy to use the "near" side of the studs to attach the slats, leaving the stud bays as the cavity for the slot resonator, (do not confuse this with the cavity inside the wall! They are two different, unrelated cavities).

4) There cannot be any barrier right behind the slots. If you put plastic there, it will block the movement of air and the resonators will not work. And if you DID put plastic there, it would not be a vapor barrier anyway! It would be in totally the wrong place: vapor barriers go inside the isolation cavity, not inside the acoustic treatment.
The inner leaf is built inside-out, and my plan was to do my treatment (roxul) and then cover it with plastic for my vapor barrier, and then cloth and slats.
That would not be a vapor barrier. The vapor barrier goes on the OTHER side of the drywall, facing the MSM cavity, not the slot-resonator cavity.
But...unless I'm misunderstanding Brien's (Xspace's) multiple posts on this subject, the vapor barrier needs to be the inner-most layer of the construction, at least in my part of the world (Seattle).
Right. It needs to be the inner-most layer OF THE WALL CAVITY, just prior to the inner-leaf drywall.
If the vapor barrier is not the inner-most layer, the moisture from inside the room would be absorbed by my Roxul instead of hitting the vapor barrier first.
Correct. That's why you put that BETWEEN your drywall and the rockwool: to prevent the vapor that migrates through the drywall from getting to the insulation, where it could condense on the cold outer-leaf. There won't be any such condensation taking place inside the ROOM, if you have your insulation, vapor barrier and HVAC set up correctly, since all the air in the room, and the room surfaces, should be at similar temperatures and with good air-flow and de-humidification.
My plan with my inside-out walls was to cover the insulation with the vapor barrier,
Yes, but that is the insulation INSIDE THE MSM CAVITY, between the two leaves. That is NOT the insulation inside the slot-wall cavity, which is inside the room, not inside the wall.
Or perhaps I'm off-base on the placement of the vapor barrier(?)
Yup! :)
My main area of concern is the control room, where I'm planning to have Helmholtz resonators along both sides:
To me it looks like there is almost no air gap at all in the right hand control room wall (MSM isolation wall), to the live room. Both sides of that wall seem to be built inside-out, with just a tiny air gap (if any) between the actual drywall leaves, and no insulation in that tiny gap. That will not work very well for isolation. You should have at least 4" of air gap between the leaves in an MSM wall, and it must be filled with insulation. I'd suggest you should move the live room wall to the right a few inches, and add insulation between them.

Also, since the left CR wall and the right CR wall have very different cavity depths in the slot walls, they will be tuned very differently, so the room will not respond the same on the left and the right. To fix that, you could build that wall inside-out as well, with drywall directly on the other side of those slot-wall studs. That would save you money, too, as you would not need a separate isolation wall on that side of the room.


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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

Looking very nice! Not far to go, now... :)
This design is based on Stuart's suggestion for addressing my concerns about a flanking path between the inner and outer leaves. Here is the duct with the neoprene spanning the gap: ... I've had a 4 piece rock band in the live room and I'm amazed at how effective this silencer is! With my ear right up to the outer opening, I can hardly hear anything coming from the other side! Great to see how the ideas on this forum work in the real world.
:yahoo: Glad it is working! It's always nice to get direct feedback like this, showing that things actually do work in practice the way that theory predicts. Of course, building it properly, like you did, is a big part of why it works so well, too. Nice job!

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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Bigsby »

Well, I have a bit of a pit in my stomach now. I hope you guys can help me out with all of this. Here's why I'm feeling sick:
My inner leaf walls are already up, and there is no vapor barrier between the inner and outer leaves!! In all of my reading, I've always had the understanding that the vapor barrier is the last thing you put up, right up against the warm air. If I'm understanding you correctly, Stuart, you're saying that I should have attached the vapor barrier to the back side of the inner leaf drywall before I tipped the wall up into place. I don't have that option anymore, so I'm kind of freaking out.
Perhaps part of the reason for my confusion is the fact that building walls inside-out is not an ordinary construction method. I know that normally, in a one-leaf building, the vapor barrier would go up after the insulation, right behind the drywall, but I guess I thought that since the drywall in my case is on the back side of the inner leaf, that the barrier wouldn't go there because the insulation (treatment) would be the first thing the warm air would hit, not the vapor barrier

I understand all of what you said regarding the differences between treatment and isolation; I'm clear on that. It's the vapor barrier placement that I'm messed up on.

Here's what Brien said regarding the vapor barrier in the shabbey road thread:
But to place the VDR in the middle of a double wall assembly is asking for trouble. I have to go back to my soft drink can analogy to perform this next magic trick.

Kid gets an aluminum can soft drink out of the refrigerator. Within seconds of being outside of the cold environment, the can starts to sweat. Now you think this sweat is part of the can don't you? It isn't, it is condensation in the air, the warm air to the cold side of the can. Now take that analogy and place it on the inside of the middle of a wall assembly full of insulation and what happens?

The gas that is condensation when moving from the warm side to the cold side will "hit" the solid plastic sheeting, and stick to it.

When the house starts trying to dry out, the moisture will migrate back into the interior framed wall, but before it makes it inside it has to go through the insulation on this interior wall.

And it cannot make it...it will diffuse on the insulation, wet the insulation and become a big problem and you will not know about it for months and months.
Not trying to make excuses, just trying to illustrate why I'm confused. So I guess I'm wondering what I can do about it now. Could I put up a barrier on the exposed drywall of the inner leaf before I install the treatment? I have the same situation in the live room, although the treatment is already up, with a thin layer of plastic over it. If I have to, I'll tear that out and put the barrier up against the drywall and studs and then put the rockwool back in. I just need to figure out a way to recover from this! Thank you for all your help!

By the way, Stuart, regarding this comment:
To me it looks like there is almost no air gap at all in the right hand control room wall (MSM isolation wall), to the live room. Both sides of that wall seem to be built inside-out, with just a tiny air gap (if any) between the actual drywall leaves, and no insulation in that tiny gap. That will not work very well for isolation. You should have at least 4" of air gap between the leaves in an MSM wall, and it must be filled with insulation. I'd suggest you should move the live room wall to the right a few inches, and add insulation between them.

Also, since the left CR wall and the right CR wall have very different cavity depths in the slot walls, they will be tuned very differently, so the room will not respond the same on the left and the right. To fix that, you could build that wall inside-out as well, with drywall directly on the other side of those slot-wall studs. That would save you money, too, as you would not need a separate isolation wall on that side of the room.
The adjacent wall for the live room is actually not built inside-out, so there is about 5" of gap between the leaves of the CR and the LR. The left side of the CR is designed the way it is at John's suggestion in order to utilize the added area on the left for bass trapping. In this way, it's similar to Simone's design for his control room.
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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by Soundman2020 »

The adjacent wall for the live room is actually not built inside-out, so there is about 5" of gap between the leaves of the CR and the LR.
Maybe it's just the angle that the image is taken, but to me it sure looks like there is drywall on there, in the cavity:
vapor-barrier-01.png
It also looks like the framing goes right through, connecting across the gap, and there doesn't seem to be any drywall on the live-room side of that leaf.

But like I say, maybe that's just the angle. Please post your actual SketchUp model, so we can take a closer look.
you're saying that I should have attached the vapor barrier to the back side of the inner leaf drywall before I tipped the wall up into place.
That's the way I understand it. Brien is the expert on vapor barriers, but that's the way I see it.
I thought that since the drywall in my case is on the back side of the inner leaf, that the barrier wouldn't go there because the insulation (treatment) would be the first thing the warm air would hit, not the vapor barrier
Just want to clarify something here: you DO have insulation in the MSM cavity too, right? That cavity must have BOTH insulation AND ALSO the vapor barrier. I, not talking about the insulation that is part of the treatment inside the room, but rather the insulation that must be in the wall cavity. You need that for both thermal and acoustic reasons. How much insulation do you have in there, and how did you attach it?

Building a wall inside-out does one thing only: it moves the studs to the other side of the drywall. It does not change anything else about the normal building procedure, or the need for insulation, vapor barriers, or anything else.
But to place the VDR in the middle of a double wall assembly is asking for trouble
Exactly, since that was what was being proposed in that thread! The OP was thinking about putting his vapor barrier in the MIDDLE of the cavity, instead of against either the inner-leaf or the outer-leaf. In other words, he was planning to install it with air on both sides...
Now take that analogy and place it on the inside of the middle of a wall assembly full of insulation and what happens?
Emphasis mine. Brien is saying that the middle of the cavity is the wrong place to put it: it must go up against one of the two leaves, never in the middle.
So I guess I'm wondering what I can do about it now.
I'm really not sure what you can do, but I suspect that, given where you live, you need a vapor barrier in the correct place. I'm hoping Brien sees this thread and can shed more light on it.
Could I put up a barrier on the exposed drywall of the inner leaf before I install the treatment?
I hope you can do that, but I suspect that you can't. I suspect that the barrier needs to go inside the wall cavity, between the insulation and the drywall.

I hope I'm wrong about that!

I'm not trying to rub it in and make you feel even worse, but just pointing this out for future reference: this is the reason why it is a good idea to update your build thread regularly, showing exactly what you are doing at each step, so errors like this can be caught in time. It's always good to have many pairs of eyes "looking over your shoulder" as you build: the other eyes might see things that you didn't notice.


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Re: My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

Post by xSpace »

Bigsby wrote:Well, I have a bit of a pit in my stomach now. I hope you guys can help me out with all of this. Here's why I'm feeling sick:
My inner leaf walls are already up, and there is no vapor barrier between the inner and outer leaves!! In all of my reading, I've always had the understanding that the vapor barrier is the last thing you put up, right up against the warm air.
True that does seem to be a conflict. The bigger issue is that you have to take the Perm rating of the materials involved in the construction into account to decide if you even NEED a VB. And with decidedly accurate HVAC usually this can alter if one (VB) is needed or no.

If we use the cold can out of the refrigerator analogy then we might get different results. With an accurately designed HVAC system then the assembly should dry out to the interior right?

Installing the VB to the interior is never going to work on an inside out wall.

The alternative of placing the VB in the middle of the assembly, essentially on the back side of the hard boundary which will illicit questions that need answers but seems the most likely placement.

The goal is simple. Anything (if a VB is required) on the interior side of the thermal envelope based on the perm ratings of the materials used, will be beyond (inside) the VB for the interior to handle, usually the HVAC.

Anything from the backside of the VB to the exterior is dependent on the natural drying process to keep the structure healthy.
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