John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

If that's not a booth, then what is the purpose of the window in the center of the CR front wall? That's what was making think it must be a vocal booth or some such.

Oh my ... I wondered what brought that idea on !

And my SINCERE apologies !

The 'window' idea came about due to concerns I had if one of my elderly parents needed me, and had opened the door at the top of the stairs [from the family room]. My alternate ideas are a video monitor, or a child monitor, or a flashing lite that could be triggered like a door bell. I was concerned that being in a fairly isolated room someone would have trouble getting my attention. Really can't explain it better ... and not exactly sure how to best resolve this.

Sorry for the confusion ... this new build will only be the control room.

On other things ... well ... I started trying to remember how to use SketchUP. It was NOT a pretty site

I going to attach a SketchUP file of what I have so far. Its' pathetic ... but I'll try hard to improve the drawing as we go.

I intentionally left the CR area clear of joists above. Basically the joist on the left side of the building carry over to the right ... resting on TOP of the Main Bearing Beam.

Also ... I only put up single framed walls just to map out the size of the room, and tried to include the location of objects ... like the sump pump, and the pipe.

Please don't laugh too hard ... well, go ahead ... but don't hurt yerself because of this sketch attempt.

Seriously ... regarding soffit mounting. I am very interest in this. Nearly every studio I work had soffitted mains, along with the usual nearfields.

I have been considering the FOCAL SOLO 6Be monitors [with regard to this CR size] Not sure anything larger could be handled. The problem is, my old work room is now gone. I have not heard these monitors yet, and I won't be able to make judgment until I have a room together. I've spoken to the REP, and he'll make arrangements for me to audition a demo pair when I'm ready.

This is NOT the way I planned to ever do a room. Normally I'd spend a year or so researching/planning ... but now the heat is on. Getting calls for projects is wonderful [and I'm very grateful], but its' painful to not have any room to work in. Thank-you for understanding ... I'm sure all engineers do.

Well ... let me get this 'plan' posted so that ideas can roll. The electrician and plummer are coming in tomorrow to look things over.

Thank-you for helping me ... I need it !!

darn ... the .SKP file is too large. Let me try to remove some objects.

OK ... I found how to PURGE the file ... maybe took out too much stuff

The 'window' idea came about due to concerns I had if one of my elderly parents needed me, and had opened the door at the top of the stairs [from the family room].

Aaaah! OK, I get it. That makes sense.

So just checking, but that space that I thought was your vocal booth, is actually just empty space, with nothing much in it? If so, then it should be possible to slide your entire room over that way by a foot or two...

What would that do? It would allow you bypass the sump issue completely, since you could then build a "kink" into the rear outer leaf of your studio, without it affecting the inner leaf at all: The sump would no longer be in your room at all, and the drainage pipe would be in your MSM cavity. Win-win!!!

Please don't laugh too hard ... well, go ahead ... but don't hurt yerself because of this sketch attempt.

It looks pretty good, actually! from what I can see, at least... But I have to download and install the latest version of SkethUp in order to open your model, since you seem to be using V8.something and I'm still on V7.something.... Maybe I'll have time to do that over the weekend.

Seriously ... regarding soffit mounting. I am very interest in this. Nearly every studio I work had soffitted mains,

Yup! There's a reason for that...

The problem is, my old work room is now gone. I have not heard these monitors yet, and I won't be able to make judgment until I have a room together. I've spoken to the REP, and he'll make arrangements for me to audition a demo pair when I'm ready.

Well, if you need to get the room together fast, then putting whatever you have on stands initially would work, then you can add the soffits later, after you have the speakers. The only problem I foresee is that these kinds of "temporary" solutions seem to have a habit of becoming "permanent" by default, as work piles up and you never quite get around to finishing the room... At least, that's the way it usually works out for me!

Normally I'd spend a year or so researching/planning ...

Yup! Take a look at Andre's signature...

but its' painful to not have any room to work in. Thank-you for understanding ... I'm sure all engineers do.

I know exactly how you feel, believe me... Been there, doing that...

So maybe the "temporary" plan above is one way to go: Just start by getting your basic plan in shape, with all major details (ratios, dimensions, electrical, HVAC, etc.), then build the two leaves, door and window and throw in some basic treatment (sueprchunks in the corners, first reflection points, and start using the room like that. Then carry on with the rest of the build, as time and funds permit. I don't know if I could do that, since as I mentioned above I'd probably get bogged down in just using the "temporary" room and never really finishing it, but if you have the discipline to not fall into that trap, then this might be an option.

Food for thought, anyway.


- Stuart -

So just checking, but that space that I thought was your vocal booth, is actually just empty space, with nothing much in it? If so, then it should be possible to slide your entire room over that way by a foot or two...

That 'space' is going to have to be a storage/workbench area. The planned 'new' wall really marks the furthest line I can go. It's aligned with a clear floor joist above. Before that we start getting into water, gas, & heating lines in the ceiling.

What would that do? It would allow you bypass the sump issue completely, since you could then build a "kink" into the rear outer leaf of your studio, without it affecting the inner leaf at all: The sump would no longer be in your room at all, and the drainage pipe would be in your MSM cavity. Win-win!!!

I've been try to reduce my SketchUP file to stay below 500k [which means I have to pull so many details out] .

I do have one SU file to post that attempts a square out boxing around the pump area. I only did a single wall just to see how that would work. Doing a 'double' wall ... I wasn't sure how much 'air spacing' is needed between the 2 walls. Is it different for 2x4's or 2x6's ?

My first 'plan' was to face into the back wall, with the pump in the left-front corner. I don't have any design on what a soffit would build out to. I wondered if that 'box out' would interfere with the soffit build?

If I shorten the room [building away from the pump wall, my concern is room ratios going to a square box. [I'd have to pull ~ 3' from the wall to get the pump out of the way, put the room at ~13'-6" x 13'-4". Looking at the ceiling, and what I will probably need to do [drywall on the joist, so ~7'] ... boy is this discouraging

Well let me see if this 'reduced' file will post. Yes, I am using version 8 of SU .

Please let me know!

Thank-you

edit ... I posted a v7 too.

Doing a 'double' wall ... I wasn't sure how much 'air spacing' is needed between the 2 walls. Is it different for 2x4's or 2x6's ?

It doesn't based on lumbar, but rather in relation to how much isolation you need. The air gap (distance between the hard surfaces within the wall) is part of the equation that defines the resonant frequency for your MSM wall. The other big thing that goes in the equation is the mass of the two leaves. That equation is the basis for determining how good your isolation will be in the low end of the spectrum. To get better isolation you can either increase the mass on each leaf, or you can increase the depth of the air gap. Or both. The stud dimensions don't come into that equation at all. The studs are only there to hold up the drywall: they don't have too much of an influence on the isolation (they do a bit, but probably not worth worrying about in your case).

So feel free to use whatever size studs you need to support your walls and ceiling safely. As long as your air gap is greater than 4 inches, and you have a couple of layers of 5/8 on your inner leaf, then you should be fine. If you need to increase the depth of the air gap to fit around your sump pump, pipes or whatever, then go for it! Increase air depth in your wall cavity is a GOOD thing: It brings down the MSM resonant frequency, and increase isolation.

I'll take a look at your SketchUp and post more later...


- Stuart -

Thank-you Soundman2020 for the explanation and clarification on the walls and gaps! I will definitely try to implement.

If I may ... I do have a question as to dealing with the 2 concrete walls and how best to treat them. From what I've been reading, it appears to be a 'regional' issue as to whether and how you can cover these type of walls without causing structural or 'biological' demons.
Up here in the northeast we have severe winters & this year one of the warmest summers on record. My contractor is sending over an insulation guy to offer his insights.

I would prefer NOT to have concrete walls as the final finish in the CR. If we can, we were thinking possibly 2x4 studs laid flat, 16" OC, and fill insulation between [faced or no?]. Of course, I'm still trying to figure the design req for the soffit build into this. I've not seen many useful structural diagrams for the soffit build. I would like to have the 'structure' in place that still could be tweaked based on the monitor decision [height & spread].

And again [sorry] still toying with the original direction to face the CR [toward the sump concrete wall]. I still wonder the depth of the soffit build and what effect a box area, or slant wall to the pump, would affect L/R response. I recall working a studio many years back that had the 70's soffits with tape machines underneath. There where also structural differences behind the soffit area. Panning a sound from left or right would be slightly different [of course, it could just have been a poor build]. That past experience had influenced my re-orientation to put 'that' in the back of the room. I'd sure be listening to advice on that, and knowing that building this CR in these pre-existing conditions/limitations was going to have many compromises. [even if it means that I would be aligned with 'magnetic North'

One complaint if I may ... WHY the 500k limit on file posting ?!?? I had to throw out many details that would have provided a clearer picture of what's here and what's planned. ...just wondering

Thanks again for your time and response ... no one else has jumped in, so I really do appreciate your kindness and insights. Thank-you.

Tomorrow the electrician is coming in to help clear up some wires in the ceiling and try to route them out of the way. It's been tough to get any of these guys to show. They may be worst than musicians!

Back to the SketchUP design and more cleaning !

OH ... grabbed a quick SPL meter reading. My 'quiet' environment hovers around 40dB C-weighted. When the dehumidifier kicks in, it jumps to 60dB [measured 5' from the source].

Oh how I long for those quiet daze in the studio.

we now return to your regularly schedualed program.

If I shorten the room [building away from the pump wall, my concern is room ratios going to a square box. [I'd have to pull ~ 3' from the wall to get the pump out of the way, put the room at ~13'-6" x 13'-4".

Not necessarily! Try something like this:

http://www.digistar.cl/studios/2010%20U ... 5d-S04.skp

The room is a little smaller (15'8", 11'7", 6'8"), but the ratio is really close to Sepmeyer's best ratio, and the slight kink in the back wall shouldn't be a problem: Put a deep and wide bass trap over it, Superchunk style, and it should be fine. (You could actually hit Sepmeyer's best ratio spot on if you wanted to, but it would make the room even smaller, and I don't think you need to do that: the dimensions I put in there are plenty close enough).

I did both leaves for you, roughly, in that file, and started on the ceiling, to get yo going in the right direction. That's a realistic height and size. You'll notice that I'm using an inside-out ceiling, and you might be able to gain an extra bit of head room by using RC instead, or by "interleaving" the new joists between the existing joists. This is just to get you started.

If I may ... I do have a question as to dealing with the 2 concrete walls and how best to treat them. From what I've been reading, it appears to be a 'regional' issue as to whether and how you can cover these type of walls without causing structural or 'biological' demons.
Up here in the northeast we have severe winters & this year one of the warmest summers on record. My contractor is sending over an insulation guy to offer his insights.

Rod or Brien can probably help you out there better than I can. I'm not sure about how best to deal with that, but there must be some type of treatment that you can do.

If we can, we were thinking possibly 2x4 studs laid flat, 16" OC, and fill insulation between [faced or no?].

I wouldn't use "flat" studs! The inner leaf cannot touch the outer leaf anyway: you do need an proper stud frame for your inner leaf, but I certainly wouldn't put the studs sideways on that.

Panning a sound from left or right would be slightly different [of course, it could just have been a poor build].

I wouldn't do anything like that either! You want the best possible room you can get, which means your stereo image needs to be perfect, and your sound stage well defined, tight and clear. I'd try to keep the front half of the room as symmetrical as possible. The rear half isn't so important, but the front is.

Tomorrow the electrician is coming in to help clear up some wires in the ceiling and try to route them out of the way.

Do let him know that you are going to need a separate distribution panel for your room, or at the very least a couple of separate circuits of the main panel, and that start grounding is a must: no skimping on that! Also tell him that he CANNOT make any holes in your walls: everything should be surface mount, if possible. Or if he absolutely must make a hole, then it has to be very carefully sealed afterwards, and the lost mass has to be made up somehow. Let him know that this is nothing at all like a normal home installation, nor an ordinary office or industrial installation: This is different, and he MUST follow your instructions to the letter: One stupid move by an electrician can totally trash your isolation....

no one else has jumped in,

I'm sure they will if you ask them! I'm hoping Rod, Brien, Andre or someone will jump in on the issue of how to treat your concrete walls before putting up the inner leaf.

- Stuart -

mmmm ... got the SU file

Got to take Ma for doc appoint. When I get back, I want to post a couple pics of the current ceiling [floor joist]. BTW ... the current 'joist' rest ABOVE the main load bearing beam.
I had to pull those details from my latest SU post

See u soon!

Thank-you!

BTW ... the current 'joist' rest ABOVE the main load bearing beam.

Yeah, I saw that in the photos you already posted, and I took that into account with the ceiling design. The drywall is about an inch clear of the existing joists. You could take it a bit higher, but not much, and you could get the new inner-leaf joists up in between those existing joists, to keep them out of your headroom. Doing that could get your ceiling to about 6'9", or maybe even 6'10" if you don't need much isolation and can live with only one layer of 5/8 drywall up there. But that's about it!

Can you re-measure the height of the bottom of those joists, to double check?


- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

BTW ... the current 'joist' rest ABOVE the main load bearing beam.

Yeah, I saw that in the photos you already posted, and I took that into account with the ceiling design. The drywall is about an inch clear of the existing joists. You could take it a bit higher, but not much, and you could get the new inner-leaf joists up in between those existing joists, to keep them out of your headroom. Doing that could get your ceiling to about 6'9", or maybe even 6'10" if you don't need much isolation and can live with only one layer of 5/8 drywall up there. But that's about it!

Can you re-measure the height of the bottom of those joists, to double check?


- Stuart -

Hi Stuart,

OK .. just got back!

In the world of CAD ... everything can be made with perfect corners and parallel surfaces.

However, this be no CAD reality. I started to re-measure, and finding a slope in the floors and/or ceiling [of course].

I not exactly sure if I should modify the current drawing, or just sketch out a new one detailing the MLB beam, joist, and 'ceiling'.

I'll do that now .. anyway.

thanks

OK ... I probably made a mess with the SketchUP attempt at new measurements.

In fact ... In know I DID. I now realize that the variations in HEIGHTS are due to the SLOPE of the FLOOR. [and of course I did it backward] Chalk this up to 'an idiot using a new program ... a hilarious combination.

Got to head out to a jazz rehearsal ... back later tonite.

Please tell me how you want me to detail the measurements.

Thanks!

I used v7 SU.

Was able to do some very unscientific NOISE tests. [C-weighted].

The source noise was my shop vac which generates an SP 90dB @ 1ft in the basement [just below the upstairs living room.

In the upstairs LR.

The general SP level was ~39dB. With the shop vac ON, the SP is 61dB.

Since I have gutted the basement area, the only things separating the up/down rooms are the floor joist, with probably 3/4" sub-flooring [not sure what they used 50 yrs ago, and that is covered with real hardwood floor [3/4"?].

From the numbers, it appears the floor/ceiling [as is] is providing a 29dB reduction.

This initial state is obviously unacceptable to the residence. I should mention that the shop vac has a peak freq @ around 500 hz [if that matters to this test measurement].

Interested in professional observations

Thank-you!!

Well, that at least gives you an idea, and leads you to a conclusion: You need way more isolation than you have!

But it may be a bit worse than you think: Your shop vac probably isn't putting out much energy in the very low end of the spectrum, which is the hardest part to isolate.

So now you know how loud you are: now all you need to do is figure out how quiet you need to be (ie, what level really is acceptable upstairs), then you will have a solid goal for your isolation: The difference between "how loud" and "how quiet".

Can you set up some speakers down there, play loud rock music with plenty of low end, then slowly turn it down until the folks upstairs say "that's fine", then measure how loud that level actually is upstairs?

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:Can you set up some speakers down there, play loud rock music with plenty of low end, then slowly turn it down until the folks upstairs say "that's fine", then measure how loud that level actually is upstairs?

- Stuart -

Hi Stuart !

YES ... I'll get on that ASAP.

Well ... a SNAG in the plan to get noise level measurements

Just found out this morning that Mom has come down with a case of the shingles. She is on the couch upstairs, and I really do not want to disturb her at this moment. For those of us that have gone through having them ... I'm sure you'd agree

SO .... how to proceed now?

If I set up only 1 speaker, and play something UP to a level that can be heard upstairs ...
and then measure THAT level in the basement, would that provide proper information?

Sorry, not thinking to clear at the moment.

Thanks for your understanding.

Assembly of the wall mounted traps continue.
Using drywall 'corner beads' for the cage, to hold 2 sheets of 2x24x48" rigid.