Acoustic treatment control room

How to use REW, What is a Bass Trap, a diffuser, the speed of sound, etc.

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Ratty_7
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Soundman2020 wrote:
acoustic polyester insulation
As long as it is the right density stuff, that should work. But there is also low density polyester stuff, that might not be very effective. Where I live, the normal "acoustic polyester insulation" is woefully inadequate, at around 6 kg/m3. It's good thermally, but not so good acoustically. I used some of that stuff a few years ago when I added on an office to the house, in my ignorance before I learned the truth about how acoustics really works, and I was disappointed with the acoustic results. I wish I would have used mineral wool.

The really good thing about it is that it doesn't itch! It's easy to work with, you don't need gloves, protective eyewear, heavy clothing, etc. like you do with fiber glass and mineral wool. But it only makes sense if you have the correct density stuff.


- Stuart -
Hi Stuart,
This Polyester insulation is a little thicker than 3 " so I am hoping I can use it. Problem might be that I think it will push the hessian out a little making the walls look as though they are bulging ...!!! I'll just have to experiment and see how I go. I might be able to put fishing line across the batts ensuring they don't bulge out ...

Mike
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

It's not really the thickness that I'm concerned about, Mike: it's the density (and gas flow resistivity). If it isn't the right density then it won't do anything useful for you, so you'd just be wasting your time by installing it. You need to make sure. Check with the manufacturer to find out what the density is. It should be quoted as kilograms per cubic meter, or pounds per cubic foot. For mineral wool, you want something in the range of roughly 48 kg/m3, which is about 3 lbs per cubic foot. For fiberglass, 30 kg/m3. Not sure about polyester.

- Stuart -
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Soundman2020 wrote:It's not really the thickness that I'm concerned about, Mike: it's the density (and gas flow resistivity). If it isn't the right density then it won't do anything useful for you, so you'd just be wasting your time by installing it. You need to make sure. Check with the manufacturer to find out what the density is. It should be quoted as kilograms per cubic meter, or pounds per cubic foot. For mineral wool, you want something in the range of roughly 48 kg/m3, which is about 3 lbs per cubic foot. For fiberglass, 30 kg/m3. Not sure about polyester.

- Stuart -
Hi Stuart

I have found this product hope this is ok as i think this fits the bill ?
POLYROLL WHITE 48kg/m3 25mm Blanket 2400x1200mm $13.20 per sheet
cheers Mike
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Hi Guys

I am finally trying to fine tune my control see the older pics page 1. I have taken a bunch of measurements using a Behringer ECM8000 and the REW software.
In the REW calculations I am providing, measurements were taken at the sweet spot, half way down the control room and in the rear corners where I have bass traps.

The control walls are Johns inside out side design and have been sealed.
I have yet to put any slot resonators on the walls, nor is there any rear wall treated diffuser as suggested by Guffo and Jewel as I thought it was time to do some readings first....!!!

In the SWEET SPOT measurements provided I noticed that I have a couple of major nulls at about 80Hz and at 1.1k apart from all the others...!!! So I am hoping some one will be able to help me getting this control room fine tuned.

cheers
Mike
Last edited by Ratty_7 on Fri May 13, 2016 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

I have taken a bunch of measurements using a Behringer ECM8000 and the REW software.
It's good to see you back again, Mike! :) :thu:

But you have a problem. A big problem. Your REW data is not valid, because you have a serious mains hum issue. Take a look at your spectrogram:
REW-double-hum.jpg
See those spikes? They never die away, or even change in intensity. They are always there, very powerful, continuous.

See the frequencies? Australia is 50 Hz, and your spikes are at 50, 100, 150, 200 etc Hz. All the way up the spectrum. You can see them crystal clear on the waterfall plots too,

Strangely enough, you somehow managed to get 60 Hz hum in there as well! 60, 120, 180, 240 Hz... all of the harmonics are there. I guess you must be running a dual power system, with both 220V/50Hz and also 110V/60 Hz: Not sure why, but both frequency sets are there.

That hash is absolutely overpowering any acoustic data, so the entire data set is no use.

My guess would be that you either have a faulty mic cable, or you have a faulty mic (it wouldn't be the first time I've heard of an ECM-8000 having a ground fault on it: in fact, it seems to be quite common: Behringer quality control and all that, I guess).

So first you need to identify that problem and get it fixed, then you'll have to re-do your REW tests, but you need to do them right this time. I VERY much doubt that you did your tests 140 dBC, as shown by the graphs :ahh: :shock: so I'm assuming you did not actually calibrate REW properly with a hand held sound level meter, and you did not set up your system so that each individual speaker produces 80 dBC by itself, which will automatically give you the 86 dBC reference calibration level.

Therefore, after you have found and fixed your massive mains hum problem, calibrate REW using your hand-held sound level meter, then run the tests again. This time, run three tests with the mic positioned precisely in the middle of your head (!), or rather, in the middle of where your head will be when you are mixing, exactly on the room center line, with the tip and exactly 1.2m above the floor, and the mic angled upwards at about 60°. Do one test with just the left speaker, one with just the right speaker, and one with both speakers. Do not adjust anything between tests! Don't even touch the system at all, except to turn of and on the speakers.

Next, your way of looking at the data is not very useful at all: A graph that runs from 2 Hz to 30 kHz and -160 dB to + 180 dB shows you nothing useful about the response of the room. Zilch. You cannot draw any useful conclusions at all from that.

You need to look at the correct parts of the spectrum: First and foremost, 15 Hz to 500 Hz, and 35 dB to 100 dB (assuming you calibrated the system correctly to 86 dB). That will clearly show you how your low end is doing, which is the most critical part of the spectrum. Then you can choose other parts of the spectrum and other ranges.

Your RT60 graph is also pretty useless: You have the range set 1 to 10 seconds, which would be fine if you were measuring the RT-60 time of the space shuttle hanger at NASA, but for a small room you pretty much never need to set the top scale more than 1 second (unless the room is completed untreated, maybe). And while smoothing your RT60 to 1 octave is OK for showing nice flat graphs to impress your friends and neighbors, it does not show you anything useful at all! Set it to 1/3 octave, and 1 second max, range 50 Hz to 10 kHz, to see what the time domain response really looks like.

- Stuart -
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Hi Stuart

Thanks mate, glad to be back also thanks for your quick reply...

Mains hum OMG. When my studio was first built the electrician put in a completely new power supply board separate from the house mains with all new fuses for my studio plus I am running the studio thru a UPS so, I will definitely check that out. No 110v here only good ole Aussie volts @ 240V 50hz but now i'm worried...will get back to ya, have a great day

Mike
Last edited by Ratty_7 on Fri May 13, 2016 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Ok Stuart this is serious stuff..so thanks
I have read your notes and I did set up my REW software according to the video on YouTube but obviously I didn't do it right for my needs ...sorry
Apart from the ECM 8000 "junkamic". I have a Realistic/RadioShack decibel meter. So I will put that thru my UA 6176 preamp into my mac hows that and if I will follow your directions explicitly I should be ok ?

:shot:
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Hi Stuart

It's Mike here with renewed enthusiasm.... :shot:

Here are my new measurements with specs you suggested (see pics) and I hope these are more useful...!!!
1. The mic was 1.2 metres from the control room floor angled at 60 degrees.
2. I measured the volume at the measurement mic with my S/L meter to read 86db
3. The measurements are at the sweet spot first both speakers then the left then right all 15Hz - 500Hz at 86db

and as a bonus no mains spikes :D

I am considering taking more measurements from 500Hz -2K
then 2k-10K

what do you think ?
cheers Mike
Last edited by Ratty_7 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

what do you think ?
I think you should look at your scales! And your test procedure! :)

You have set your scales way beyond the extremes of anything vaguely useful. Your vertical scale runs from about a hundred million times quieter than it would be possible to measure in the most silent test lab on the planet with the most sensitive test gear ever invented, at the low end, up to about one thousand times louder than the loudest sound ever heard on planet Earth! That's probably not a good way to set the levels.... And on the horizontal scale, it runs from a frequency about an octave below the very lowest earthquake wave ever recorded, and up to about an octave above the frequency of a dog whistle.... Also not a useful scale!

To put that in perspective: This is like graphing the speed of your car on a graph marked in inches per millennium at the low end, to mega-miles per microsecond at the other...

You really, really, really need to set your scales to useful, meaningful ranges, such as the typical range of human hearing sensitivity on the vertical scale, and covering the lows, mids, or highs of the human hearing range on the horizontal scale.

I already mentioned this in my last post. This is what I said : "A graph that runs from 2 Hz to 30 kHz and -160 dB to + 180 dB shows you nothing useful about the response of the room. Zilch. You cannot draw any useful conclusions at all from that."
15Hz - 500Hz
I am considering taking more measurements from 500Hz -2K
then 2k-10K
WHY????

Why not just run the test across the entire audible spectrum all at once, from say 17 Hz to 22 kHz? What benefit do you think you'd get from only running a small part of the test at a time? And why skip the top chunk of the spectrum, from 10 kHz to 20 kHz?

The only vaguely plausible reason for running one test from 15-500, one from 500-2k, and one from 2k-10k, would be if you are testing individual speaker drivers that only cover those ranges, and therefore it would be pointless to test them for frequencies that they cannot produce well, or are outside their cross-over range... For example, if you were building a 4-way loudspeaker yourself, and wanted to test the woofer (15-500), low-mid driver (500-2k), and high-mid driver (2k-10k) individually.... (but that doesn't explain why you don't want to test your tweeter (10k-20k)!) Even then, those would be unusual cross-over points for a typical 4-way speaker... But that's not what you are doing anyway! You are just testing your room response, which covers the entire audible frequency range, so that's how you should have REW configured: to test the entire audible frequency range.

Did you read the instruction manual that comes with REW? If not, then it would probably be a good time to do that now, then repeat your tests accordingly.

Also, here's a link to a thread that shows you what typical REW graph settings should look like, to get useful information about the room acoustics:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471


- Stuart -
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Hi Stuart

Sorry, yes I agree as it makes sense to test right across the audible range

1. Have set up REW as per requirements from their web site and spoke to an administrator
2. Set the limits from 15Hz to 20k, although they said 25K but i'm sticking to the range of my DynAudios
and the other limits to 45db to 105db
3. Calibrated the system again to 86db

So here are the measurements.... fingers crossed :shot:

Mike
Last edited by Ratty_7 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

Set the limits from 15Hz to 20k, although they said 25K but i'm sticking to the range of my DynAudios
WHY???

Which DynAudio speakers do you have? And why do you not want to follow instructions from the experts?

There's a reason why we tell you to run the test out to 22k (me) or 25k (REW website). It has nothing at all to do with the point where your speaker manufacturer says the response of their speakers is down by 3dB... What reason could you possibly have for not running the test to 25 kHz?
Calibrated the system again to 86db
Not according to your graph! take a look at it: In reality, you ran your test at a level of around 70 dB, probably a bit less: You can clearly see that there is nothing on that graph even vaguely close to 80 dB, let alone 86 dB!

Also, you did only one single test there, using both speakers at once. What I had actually asked you to do is: "This time, run three tests with the mic positioned precisely in the middle of your head, or rather, in the middle of where your head will be when you are mixing, exactly on the room center line, with the tip at exactly 1.2m above the floor, and the mic angled upwards at about 60°. Do one test with just the left speaker, one with just the right speaker, and one with both speakers. Do not adjust anything between tests! Don't even touch the system at all, except to turn of and on the speakers.

So first please re-calibrate everything using the REW pink noise full-range test signal at 80 dB for each individual speaker, and using a good quality hand-held sound-level meter to do that, confirming that REW is set to the same level as what your meter is showing. You can find that test signal on the "preferences" menu. Under "Levels" select the option "Use main speakers to Check/Set levels", then hit the "Check Levels" button. Adjust the speaker volume only until you see 80 dB(C) on your sound level meter.

Once you have calibrated, run those three tests I mentioned above, with REW set to sweep from 15 Hz. to 25 kHz. One test on left speaker, one on right speaker, one on both speakers. Label them.

Then upload the resulting MDAT file to some file-sharing service, such as Dropbox, and post the link here so we can download the file and look at it properly. The MDAT file is too big to post on the forum, so you'll have to use a file sharing service.


- Stuart -
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Hi Stuart

Speakers are DynAudio BM6A Mk2

I will do the tests again following exactly the experts advice 15-25K
As you know I only have a ECM8000 which you don't like
Any advice on a good quality sound level meter as I only have an older analogue Realistic/RadioShack one...?

Mike
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

Speakers are DynAudio BM6A Mk2
Great! Nice speakers. And the manual says that at 21 kHz they are only 3 dB down, so they will easily hit 23 or 24 kHz. I'm betting your interface will run out of steam before the speakers do. Assuming your interface is set for 44.1 kHz sampling, they will hit the wall at about 22 kHz, according to Nyquist.
As you know I only have a ECM8000 which you don't like
It's not that I don't like it: I actually own one myself. It's just that it isn't very accurate, and I have come across several of those that have low-frequency "hum" problems. It seems yours does not have that problem, so it should be OK.
Any advice on a good quality sound level meter as I only have an older analogue Realistic/RadioShack one...?
Actually, those old RS meters are not too bad at all. Not perfect, but still not bad.

However, if you are looking for a good meter, get an Extech. The 407732 is good, and the 407750 is even nicer (but pricey...) . Galaxy makes some good meters too. But be careful of the cheap Chinese junk that goes for US$ 50 and even cheaper. I use a Phonic PAA3 mostly, but that's probably overkill for what you need. It's way more than just a sound level meter (but it does that too!).

- Stuart -
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Ratty_7 »

Thanks mate :)

ps I do have one question.

If you only had an older analogue Radio shack SPL meter
and the ECM8000 mic which would you use...?
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Re: Acoustic treatment control room

Post by Soundman2020 »

If you only had an older analogue Radio shack SPL meter
and the ECM8000 mic which would you use...?
I would use the ECM8000 to do the actual measurements with REW, and I would use the Radio Shack meter to calibrate REW. Even though some radio Shack meters do have a "mic out", I would not use that for REW: the ECM8000 is much better for that job. The mic on the Radio Shack meter is fine for simple SPL measurements, but not so good for precision acoustic measurements.

- Stuart -
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