John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

I've definitely heard the name tossed about on the forum...not sure if I've read any of his posts...probably have and don't realize it! haha

That's good to know though. Also glad his business is doing so well!

Thanks again
Trevor

Hey guys...just wanted to post some updates on my progress...it's slow but sure.

The gate for the studio was completed yesterday to allow access for trucks during the construction phase as well as access for load-in/load-out once the studio is completed. Nothing too exciting but still progress nonetheless. haha

I've contacted a local glass company here in Nashville (recommended by my builder) for some quotes on laminated glass. Based on my research, I think I'm going to go with 3/8" and 1/2" thicknesses for the window between the booth and CR...however, the guy at the glass place wasn't sure if they had 3/8" so I might end up with a quote for 1/2" and 5/8". Not sure if that's overkill...I'm still not entirely confident with calculating these things based on my wall mass. How do you factor in the Green Glue between double drywall when trying to match the window mass to the wall mass? Based on what I've read in other builds, I should be ok with 1/2" and 5/8" for sure. Seem like correct thinking?

In regards to the sliding glass doors I'm not entirely sure what to do. The glass company does not carry sliding door frames that provide the isolation I will need (according to the guy I talked to). They will glaze the doors if I somehow constructed the frames ( )...that's not going to happen lol. Can you even buy sliding glass door frames without the glass?? I was hoping to buy completed sliding doors and just have them installed. However, I just got a quote from this company for their studio sliding doors and it would be about $10,000 for two pairs (72" x 80") shipped to my house with 5/8" laminated glass on both (it was only $1000 less if you got two of them with 1/4")... Anybody know of a way to get this done substantially cheaper than 10 grand while maintaining the quality of the isolation? Their doors do appear to be pretty darn good. Check out the TL charts here.

Also, I've been doing a lot of research on Rod's design for "superdoors" since I figure this is the route I will go for the front door. However, there seems to be a lot of crucial details left out of Rod's designs provided in his book, which has stirred up some pretty lengthy conversation on several threads. One major thing I have to bring up is something that Rod seems contradictory on (or at least it appears so):

In his book he writes this on page 104 (2nd edition): "I'll let you know right now that this is one place I don't worry about maintaing the separation of wall assemblies with the frames, even when using totally separated assemblies. When it comes to carrying a door that might weigh well over 300 pounds, or even standard solid-core doors, you do not want your door frame attached to a stud that can move over the years. As I noted previously, tests have proven that a through jamb does not effectively lessen the total isolation value of a wall assembly to any great degree. So don't worry about any minuscule amount of isolations you may lose. Just build the frame straight through the cavity."

But then his diagram specifically shows compressed rockwool, backer rod, and acoustic caulk between the 5/4 stock wood jamb and the wall studs. I figure this is there to decouple the door jamb from the two separate wall frames so that they don't become coupled by the 5/4 stock. But why would he do this when he just stated not to worry about it!! It's EXTREMELY confusing to me and it appears to have a lot of people around the forum somewhat confused too. RJHollins went through it on his construction thread. Even after reading through all the back and forth discussion there, I am still very confused on how to properly mount and frame a "superdoor". I have to know how to do this in the 3D model before I can even fathom telling the builder (with confidence) an accurate measurement for the rough opening (framing) of the front door. (and just as a disclaimer...I think Rod is great!! I would not be this far without the help of his book!)

Continuing my research! Any help or tips or links to something I have missed would be greatly appreciated!

cheers
Trevor

One other thing I forgot to mention which I'm not quite sure how it slipped my mind since it has taken up quite a bit of my research lately... but I finally talked to a tech guy over at Event who actually had to setup the monitors (Event ASP8) in the lab in order to answer my questions regarding the dispersion characteristics. Seems pretty crazy that they don't have this information on hand if you ask me

Anyways, he provided polar plots of the test results which I have provided below. Figured this might be helpful to anyone needing this information for these monitors. They are nowhere else on the internet... I'm pretty sure.

He still has not returned my answers regarding the acoustic axis of the speakers, but I'm hopeful he will reply soon.

Anyways, I am debating whether or not to go ahead and upgrade to a better pair of monitors before I design and construct the soffits. I love my Event ASP8's but after finally talking to the Tech guy at Event (who is part of the research and development), I began to realize where on the totem pole they "rank" in terms of modern speaker technology. Plus, I have had issues in the past with low end translation to other typical consumer and car stereo systems with the ASP8's. However, I more recently attributed that to room problems and lack of proper placement/treatment within the room rather than the speakers themselves...primarily because I now realize how much was wrong with my previous control room setup. So, at this point it would really be hard to say I've given my Event's the best possible environment for proper monitoring...therefore, my ability to judge whether or not they will be what I need for the long-haul is not really possible. But, based on my research, there are definitely monitors made with higher quality components and attention to detail that can provide much more clarity during the mixing process.

So, I have begun researching my options for a potential upgrade. I've narrowed it down to several models/ brands of monitors that I think would be significantly better than the ASP8's that I currently own... as well as $3000 or less for the pair. I can't really go higher than that considering that is already more than I'd really LIKE to spend (I didn't foresee this purchase until just recently!!). The ones I am really interested in hearing are the Dynaudio BM15A, Focal Solo6 Be, Adam A8X, and last but definitely not least the Event OPAL (the $3000 limit was determined by the price of these ).

I have to say, with everything I have read about the Event OPAL's, I can't imagine them not sounding fantastic in a well designed room. However, it does concern me that I can't find any examples that demonstrate them being soffit mounted. And since they are somewhat oddly shaped, I'm pretty sure they don't meet the criteria for "easily soffitable"... .

Any opinions on this dilemma? Would it be worth it to upgrade to some monitors of this quality over what I have now? Has anyone heard any of these monitors side by side? I am desperate to hear the OPAL's but no stores in Nashville have any to demo. Not sure how to go about shopping for monitors if I can't HEAR them! Haha

Alright well...you know my feelings...any and all help and/or thoughts, opinions, cries of warning, sighs of distress, whatever....is MUCH appreciated!

cheers
Trevor

hmmm ... I'll have to check that passage in my 2nd edition ... I'd not noticed that.

However, I do recall my 'learning time' on the door design ... believe me, it took both Gullfo and Soundman to pound the concept into me

Rightly so, the weight concern in the jamb area is not to be taken lightly bad pun

You may see it in my thread, went with the 5/4 maple jamb [built by a pro mill shop].
The door's framing area was given serious attention. Especially the number of studs used
on the hinge side.

I also had discussion with the 'sway bracket' designer who was very helpful in how I might
employ those ... which I did. OverKILL Very possible ... and would do it again, cause, ya just don't want to have to worry about things like doors and the use/abuse.

The caveat to my build ... well, it turns out that over 90% of the time, I can work at optimal mix volume [~80dB] with the door wide open and not bother any of the household. This has been an unexpected surprise that I'm happy with. To add ... with the door nearly always open, I periodically check how the door alignment has maintained. It's been up and open for nearly a year ... zero issue.

Another important point. I DID call in a top notch carpenter to handle the door installation. The screws that we used for the jamb were in the 'specialty' section of the hardware store. Maybe that, too, was overkill ... but my Pro smiled when he drilled them in.

Sorry for the long winded response ... I would be curious of other expert insights on the 'To Split' or 'Not To Split'. Not withstanding the cost differential.

.... and he off to the background

Why not ask Rod directly?

Questions for Rod Gervais about his book

Hey guys thanks for such quick replies!!

RJ...

The caveat to my build ... well, it turns out that over 90% of the time, I can work at optimal mix volume [~80dB] with the door wide open and not bother any of the household. This has been an unexpected surprise that I'm happy with. To add ... with the door nearly always open, I periodically check how the door alignment has maintained. It's been up and open for nearly a year ... zero issue.

That's great news! I'm sure that was quite a surprise after going to such lengthy efforts with the door...however it never hurts to do things right. I really applaud your efforts on the door construction. It was a great read. I need to read through it all again just to let it sink in...a little further lol.

I think my biggest issue right now is the need for a full "superdoor" diagram (with measurements on everything)...not just the top, or sides, or bottom, but EVERY angle possible lol. I'm going to get some construction books today that might clear up some of the basics of door design as well as the basics of framing etc. I'm trying to save the moderators from having to "pound the concept into me"...however, that might end up being the case...again.

Another important point. I DID call in a top notch carpenter to handle the door installation. The screws that we used for the jamb were in the 'specialty' section of the hardware store. Maybe that, too, was overkill ... but my Pro smiled when he drilled them in.

You know, I was hoping to take on some aspects of the door construction ourselves, but the more I look into it, the less confident I am with that idea. Let's just say doors are becoming scarier and scarier.

Sorry for the long winded response ... I would be curious of other expert insights on the 'To Split' or 'Not To Split'. Not withstanding the cost differential.

Never be sorry for long posts on this thread! I can't ever get my points across in short posts so I always end up with narratives.


BriHar...

Why not ask Rod directly?

I had no idea I could ask him! What a great thread! I am going to read through it and see what questions he has already answered, and if nothing is there in regards to the door issue, I will post my question. (anybody else feel nervous when asking someone like Rod a question about his book??)

Thanks for the advice...as always the help is hugely appreciated. I hope I am not asking too much.

cheers
Trevor

I know the issue you're referring to as it has also left an indelible impression on me. I also have yet to install a second door in my studio, but soundchecks have indicated it may not even be necessary. I will however need to add a threshold to stop sound going through the space under the existing door and framing as at the moment the wall crosssection is completely exposed there. So, I'll be interested to see what he says in reply.

Rod actually visits this (John Sayers') site once in a while, but he's very active on GS to which I've linked in the previous post.

Thanks Brian! I just posted my question over at GS for Rod. Hopefully that will clear things up a bit.

cheers
Trevor

Soundman2020 wrote: I haven't asked Glenn for all his reasons, but one of the things that I'm starting to appreciate with having the intersect further back, is a wider sweet spot at the console. If the "cone" ends right behind your head, then as you lean left or right you can find your self with one ear off-axis and edging outside the direct field of both speakers, while the other is getting right into the middle of the combined field.

that's the basic rationale for it - it widens the sweet spot but it's also a matter of the room size as well - if i have a wide room then i can reduce the depth a bit since the speakers are coming from a wider spacing (usually we're talking large mains here not mid or near fields). for example if we're having the mains about 11' apart (as well as angled down etc) the sweet spot will easily be 4-5' wide at the console.

my apologies for only short and sporadic visits - i'm extremely busy with the day job (SAP) and a bit on some projects.

Shybird wrote:Thanks Brian! I just posted my question over at GS for Rod. Hopefully that will clear things up a bit.

just to add my 2¢ - if possible i like to keep them decoupled including using sway bracing to increase the stability around the two side of the door, but as Rod pointed out, if your limited in terms of structure when using the super doors then you need to go with the safest approach even if it means you might be losing some isolation. then again, if you doors are backing onto air locks, you probably aren't losing any room-to-room isolation and you can just construct it using the simpler jamb approach.

Hey Glenn thanks for the responses! It's always great to have your input on things as it is always very informative.

my apologies for only short and sporadic visits - i'm extremely busy with the day job (SAP) and a bit on some projects.

No worries there! I understand completely. My Dad actually does SAP security work for the University of Kentucky in Lexington (where I'm from).

if possible i like to keep them decoupled including using sway bracing to increase the stability around the two side of the door, but as Rod pointed out, if your limited in terms of structure when using the super doors then you need to go with the safest approach even if it means you might be losing some isolation.

I'm not sure what sway bracing is, so I'm going to have to do some research there. However, based on what Rod said in his reply, I think I'm going to be OK since I'm using 2x6 studs on the inner and outer shells. In Layout 14.5 it shows 2x4's for the outer shell, but I've more recently decided to go with 2x6's after talking to my builder (just adds a couple more inches of concrete). Anyways, it looks like I can just beef up the frame around the door and attach the door jambs to just one of the wall frames (inner or outer shell) which would keep them decoupled. I think that is what Rod meant regarding 2x6 studs??

Just out of curiosity, Glenn, what do you think of the design at this point? If you don't mind, I would love to have your input. Good or bad!

Stuart, I'm still a bit worried about the overall size of the RFZ in the control room. I'm not sure if it is big enough (I know I know.. I keep going back to this). Even though the closest reflection is about 2'1" behind the listening position...it is a little closer at the sides as the ray goes past the listening position. The closest it gets to the engineer is about 1' 3 13/16". Does that raise concern for anyone??

Also just as an update, I have submitted my floorplan to the builder who is going to talk to his structural engineer to determine the exact dimensions/pitch of the trusses we will use for the roof. This will allow me to draw in the exact roof structure in SU so I can begin getting more detailed with the ceiling and HVAC plans etc. Exciting stuff! (am I geeking out? lol)

Also continuing my research of monitors. At this point I really want to hear the Event Opal, Focal Twin 6 Be, and Pelonis 4288 (a recent discovery). Any thoughts here? I don't think my soffits are currently deep enough for the Pelonis and I have concerns regarding soffit mounting the other two pairs mentioned...primarily due to the face of the monitors not being flush themselves...based on some reading it seems like this could cause problems. Ahhhh why don't they all just design them flat for soffit configurations?!?! Come on! haha

Also, I'm in Florida for the week...but that doesn't mean I won't be on the forum ALL the time...just getting a tan at the same time. (bad joke at best)

cheers
Trevor



On a side note...what are your all's thoughts on ESS control room designs...as well as the MyRoom Design (some links on that one here). I felt like I opened a can of worms when I realized there are designs considered (at least by some) to be better than RFZ.. When does the tunnel end and a bright light appear?

This is just a test post...I'm having a hard time believing I'm the only person to have posted in the design forum for several days. Just wanted to see if there's some kind of issue with posting!

I've seen a few posts over the last couple of days. I haven't been able to answer any, as I'm really tied up with other things, but I have seen some.

- Stuart -

No worries Stuart! Do your thing!

Better late then never with the reply, I guess!

I'm not sure what sway bracing is,

Basically a couple of metal brackets joined by a rubber decoupler in the middle. You attach one side to the top of your isolated wall, and the other side to your original structure. Provides structural support. It keeps the wall more stable mechanically, but isolated acoustically.

In Layout 14.5 it shows 2x4's for the outer shell, but I've more recently decided to go with 2x6's after talking to my builder

Probably a good idea. You could even ask him about moving to 24" OC, instead of 16" OC: That might be an option.

Stuart, I'm still a bit worried about the overall size of the RFZ in the control room

Well, "Bigger is better", as they say, but eventually you get to the point of diminishing returns, or the point where you are compromising something else so seriously that it makes no sense.

Also, think of this: How far off-axis is the ray that gets closest to your head? Trace it back, and see how much of an angle that makes, as compared to the acoustic axis of the speaker. If we are talking about being 5° or 10° off-axis, then I'd try to improve that a bit. But if we are talking about 75° off axis, then forget it! That far off axis you are only getting "mud" in any case, which is mostly low frequencies and therefore does not really act like rays anyway: This is where you should compare the polar plot for your speakers against the ray-tracing you are doing, to see what type of problem you are looking at for the ray that is closest.

Gut feeling says you are probably fine with that. But if you REALLY want to make sure, then set up that situation for real! Set up your speaker somewhere in a large open space, outdoors maybe, and set up a large sheet of plywood in the location where that worrisome ray bounces. Get someone to turn that plywood towards you and away from you, while you sit at the simulated mix position, listening carefully. Can you hear a difference? If so, then change something. If not, then go 3D!

At this point I really want to hear the Event Opal, Focal Twin 6 Be, and Pelonis 4288 (a recent discovery). Any thoughts here?

Have you looked at Adam's? Big fan.

When does the tunnel end and a bright light appear?

I've heard that that happens to some people as they "pass over to the other side".... But you probably don't want to wait that long to build your studio!


- Stuart -