On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

Moderators: Aaronw, sharward

onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Soundman2020 wrote:
I plan on building a large cloud panel above the console that will effectively angle that part of the ceiling.
The cloud won't change the room ratio, though!
Hey Stuart - thanks for the thoughts. I'm not so sure a cloud panel wouldn't have any impact on room nodes though. I mean, I agree with all the acoustic principles you referred to but if we go strictly by those principles then technically the walls of my control room would also not be 'visible' by those lowest, most troublesome frequencies either. But the walls do have some impact (increasingly so with greater amounts of mass) and so we calculate at which frequencies that degree of impact will be at.

So if my cloud is really just comprised of mineral wool and breathable fabric than it will certainly have very minimal impact but if I make it with walls of some reasonable amount of mass - more like a bass trap panel.....

What do you think?
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Soundman2020 wrote:You could slide over the let hand wall of your CR towards the right just a little, to improve your ratio and get you more space in both your LR and your rack closet.
Actually, if I only move that wall to the right just a little it would actually make the room more square. I'd probably have to move it towards the left, making the closet and booth even smaller. :(
Soundman2020 wrote:Give yourself plenty of room behind the rack, or cabling it will be a nightmare.
If that little closet did become the equipment room than I'd hopefully be able to wheel the rack out part way through the doorway in order to get more wiggle room. It certainly will still be tight though. That's one of the compromises of this layout for sure.
Soundman2020 wrote: And don't forget to allow for HVAC in that rack closet! Real small space, lots of equipment.... Heat will build real fast in there.
Unfortunately, getting conditioned air into my equipment room was never going to be an option. Since I'm using a mini-split I'd have to add a third air handler to the system, which would make a crazy expensive system a ridiculously expensive one.

So opening the door when possible will be the system of cooling the equipment room :(

Thanks a tonne for your thoughts Stuart! It's been a while since I had some.
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
Soundman2020
Site Admin
Posts: 11938
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Location: Santiago, Chile
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

I mean, I agree with all the acoustic principles you referred to but if we go strictly by those principles then technically the walls of my control room would also not be 'visible' by those lowest, most troublesome frequencies either.
Actually no, because the MSM wall works on an entirely different principle. It is a tuned system. Technically it is a bandpass filter that is tuned to the resonant frequency of the wall system. At the resonant frequency it is not only transparent to sound, but actually boosts sound through the wall. At frequencies above and below resonance, it blocks sound progressively better. Since the resonant frequency of your wall is designed to be as low as possible, and hopefully outside of the range of human hearing, it blocks all of the frequencies that are of concern to us humans. The walls of your studio will only be visible to the low frequencies if you build them wrong! For example, if you don't put enough mass into the walls, or have an air gap that is too small, or don't put enough fiberglass inside the cavity, then the resonant frequency will, indeed, be high enough that your wall will pass sound at frequencies where you don't want it to.

But that isn't related at all to the issue of sound bending around objects whose dimensions are smaller than the wavelength. That's an entirely different thing. In any event, since your studio is supposed to be sealed airtight, waves are not able to "bend around" the walls, since they are prevented from doing so by the walls themselves. The walls. floor and ceiling define the acoustic boundaries of the room. So in order for your cloud to be able to change the room modes, you would have to build it from wall to wall, and seal it airtight to the walls. But then it would be a ceiling, and would no longer be a cloud!! :)
I'm not so sure a cloud panel wouldn't have any impact on room nodes though.
If you build the cloud large enough and massive enough then it might, indeed, add new modes to the room. But it will not affect existing modes, since they are defined by the room boundaries, not by objects within it.
So if my cloud is really just comprised of mineral wool and breathable fabric than it will certainly have very minimal impact but if I make it with walls of some reasonable amount of mass - more like a bass trap panel.....
Then it would be a bass trap AND a ceiling cloud! :) But it still would not have any effect on your room ratio, nor on the modes that are defined by the room boundaries, except perhaps to add a few more modes of its own. In order to change your room ratio, you have to change your room dimensions, and that means moving one of the bounding surfaces of the room.
Actually, if I only move that wall to the right just a little it would actually make the room more square.
You mean that right now it is wider than it is long? That means that you are firing your speakers along the shorter axis of the room, instead of the longer axis? If that's the case, then maybe you should rotate the room 90°, so that you can get the speakers firing down the long axis again.

- Stuart -
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Soundman2020 wrote:
Actually, if I only move that wall to the right just a little it would actually make the room more square.
You mean that right now it is wider than it is long? That means that you are firing your speakers along the shorter axis of the room, instead of the longer axis? If that's the case, then maybe you should rotate the room 90°, so that you can get the speakers firing down the long axis again.
{insert hand smacking forehead smiley} - I spoke to quick. I was really just considering the widest part of the room against the length. If I took a rough average from the widest and the narrowest to get the width then I'd have the following dimensions:

H - 7' 7"
W - 11' 8.75"
L - 12' 5"

A ratio of 1 : 1.55 : 1.64

Not all that great. My layout with the equipment room had a CR ratio of 1 : 1.3 : 1.65, which is actually quite close to Sepmeyer's second ideal room ratio.

This is the decision I have: an ideal room ratio that may potentially feel small and cramped or more space with the likelihood of increased modal issues.

I could move the wall between the booth and CR in as you suggested. If I move it 3" I'd end up with a 1 : 1.5 : 1.64 ratio - not a major improvement. If I move it more than I'm starting to defeat the purpose of the alteration.

Compromise is the name of the game I'm playing.....maybe installing some drywall will clear my head :?
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

First layer of drywall and backer rod is up. Time for caulking again. I used up my first 2100' of backer rod about half way through the ceiling.

I did end up pulling down the refrigerant lines from the attic. Once the outer leaf ceiling is complete I'll attach them to the bottom of the lower truss chord. Hopefully they won't be too much of a pain to work around when building the inner leaf ceiling. We'll see...
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Oh - I also meant to say that I did end up screwing the drywall up but used as few screws as I could and supplemented them with the finishing nail technique.
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

In finishing up the caulking of the first layer of drywall on the ceiling I thought of a trick that would have been really helpful during all the beef-up. When you measure the stud cavities to make your drywall cuts for the 1st layer, write the measurement on the studs for each location measured (obviously positioned such that it will still be visible after installing the drywall). Then you won't have to measure again the second time round like I'm about to do.... :roll: Especially since I'll have to be careful not to touch the caulking. :x

One thing I did do was mark lower edge of the bottom truss chord at the location of my 1x4s (my screw anchor points). Its really nice know where to screw quickly when you're hoisting that drywall over your head!
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
Ro
Senior Member
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:26 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by Ro »

great tip, thanx!
Soundman2020
Site Admin
Posts: 11938
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Location: Santiago, Chile
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

This is the decision I have: an ideal room ratio that may potentially feel small and cramped or more space with the likelihood of increased modal issues.

I could move the wall between the booth and CR in as you suggested. If I move it 3" I'd end up with a 1 : 1.5 : 1.64 ratio - not a major improvement.
You know, that's actually not such a bad ratio. You only have 4 modes below 85 Hz, and only 8 below 100 Hz. The lower ones are a bit spread out, but you could build some kind of treatment to take care of those, I think. According to Gold's calculator, that ratio is actually a good ratio, attributed to an "unknown" original source, but also listed by Eric Desart (#21 on his list) and just on the edge of the EBU recommendation. If you can spare an inch of length, then at 7.7"(H) x 11'5"(W) x 12'6"(L) you'll be right inside the EBU R22-1998 spec, and not too far off Louden's graph.

Maybe what you have with those adjustments isn't too bad, after all...

- Stuart -
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Stuart,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to check that out - those dimensions do seem pretty good (assuming the number I'm using for my width is acceptable, being an average). It seems I would get a dip somewhere between 50Hz and 65Hz and a peak around 88Hz ( I used 7.6ft x 11.46ft x 12.4ft). There's also quite a cluster of tangential modes at 155Hz and 202Hz - those could be controlled with traps I'm sure.

Given my angled walls I wonder if its worth doing calculations with three widths - the shortest, the longest and the average? It's probably possible that any modes associated with these widths could potentially exist in the room, although I assume that because the walls are angled the intensity of any dips or peaks would be minimized/diffused.....?

At any rate, I think I like these dimensions! :D
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

A quick update:

Finishing up the outer leaf ceiling took a while! I was surprised to learn that nobody stocks Roxul Safe n Sound bats for 24" OC wood studs. Rather than wait for an order I used 16" bats and just cut to fit. I certainly used more twine and nails doing that but wasn't willing to wait.

I put the HVAC runs up again - hopefully positioned such that they'll be out of the way of the new walls and ceiling.

I also finally got some flagstone at a great price from a huge supplier about 20 minutes from me and finished off the path for the new entrance. I was going to wait until my wife had prettied up the top of the wall with some flowers before posting a pic but oh well...here ya go! :wink: The driveway is still caked with mud from all the work.....gotta get that cleaned up.

I measured out and penciled in the location of all the interior walls to make sure my room dimensions are actually going to be what I've planned. I'm filling all remaining gaps with caulk and will be starting the inner framing in the next couple days! :D :D Very excited about that!
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

Framing has been moving really quick. I've got a good chunk of it done! Here are some pics;

You'll notice the red Tuck tape - I decided to cover up all the exposed caulking with it. Without it I'm sure I would have been constantly getting caulk everywhere while framing.

Pic 1 - I cut out a 1/2 inch gap in the Dricore between the CR and LR

Pic 2 - North Wall (will be the back of the CR)

Pic 3 - North East corner

Pic 4 - West wall of CR

Pic 5&6 - The beginnings of the CR/LR divider walls
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
Ro
Senior Member
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:26 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by Ro »

wow, that's horny :)

Don't we all get a bit exited when seeing frames go up ? There should be a calendar about that, hosting pictures of frames (with attractive birds in front ofcourse)
onpurposeproductions
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by onpurposeproductions »

:) It has got me pretty excited!
'We're just amateur lovers with amateur friends' - Switchfoot
petrovinksy
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:13 pm
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

Re: On Purpose Productions detached garage studio

Post by petrovinksy »

What did you decide to do for the inner ceiling joists??
Did you ever get an answer about laminating 2 2x4's vs. using 2x6's??
I am considering this to save some height.
Post Reply