Hi,
I'm planning to add a piece of outboard gear so I'm needing to get more mic cable.
Currently (no pun intended!) my tt patch bay is wired with Belden 8451.
I'm considering re-wiring with better cable.
Is the 8451 good enough to be left alone?
If it isn't, does anyone have a recommendation?
Any recommendation for a bulk cable dealer?
Also, what's the best way to attach the cable to the patch bay?
I didn't know any better so I originally soldered with multi-core (I think) and liquid flux.
I later tried some Radio Shack 'Silver-Bearing Solder' and found that its really hard to work with.
Any input will be greatly appreciated!!!
Happy Holidays to you all!!
Stabb
Cables - 8451 or better?
-
Stabb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:41 am
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Hi, your post brings a bit of nostalgia - I used to be Service Manager for an Audio/Video sales/service company on Ualena St. out by the airport (Oahu) -
Anyway, the belden you're using is around 32 picofarads/foot capacitance, which is fine for balanced line as long as it's not too long a runs - I like the beldfoil shield setup for making cables, much better than braided shields for fixed installs. If you're looking at longer runs, you may want to think about using AES/EBU 110 ohm digital cable - typically from about 13 picofarads down to maybe 6 picofarads per foot for the expensive Mogami stuff.
The price goes up for less than 1000 feet in most places too, how much were you looking at getting? Also, I don't know about today since I was there in the early '70's, but things used to be impossible to find there and everything worth getting came from the mainland. If that's still the case, shipping won't be cheap for heavy reels of cable either. If you have a local source it might be worth it for smaller quantities just to pay their price.
I've dealt with these guys before, had no complaints although their stuff isn't "name" brand - generally they want 1000' orders though -
http://www.clarkwc.com/catSinglePairShielded.htm
their basic audio cable is similar to belden, same capacitance too - they also have 110 ohm AES cable at 13 picofarads - their site doesn't list prices, you have to request quotes. I RFQ'd both cable types in 1000 foot spools, should get an answer in a day or two, and I'll post it here.
If you're going to be doing very much cabling, I'd definitely ask for samples of any cable you're considering - I once bought a 1000' spool of cable without sampling it first, had no choice at the time but to use it - the stuff was EPDM rubber sheath, the sheath was bonded to the braided shield, it had extra fillers to make it round so it was FAT, the sheath wouldn't slide along itself worth crap, took about 20 minutes per connect, couldn't pull it through any other wires without a winch, what a PITA. I will NEVER do that again...
Solder - look for SN63, eutectic solder. Easiest thing in the world to use, flows at slightly lower temps than SN60 (amazing what 3% more tin will do) - If you can't find it locally, try Newark Electronics - about $25 for a 1 lb. spool, do your whole studio -
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce ... id=72C1195
The lower temp means better connections, less burned insulation, etc -
I wouldn't bother with separate flux, get a small stainless steel wire brush if your contacts aren't still shiny, and clean them up with the brush, then just use the solder above.
Most silver-bearing solders are crappy to use, need more heat, etc - knowing Rat Shack theirs is even worse than the REAL stuff. I bought a couple RCA connectors from them once, discovered that a real Switchcraft #3502 had enough metal to make about 2-1/2 of the Rat Shack ones. Cabling isn't my life's ambition, so why would I want to do it over and over instead of doing it ONCE the correct way...
Personally, true to the above statement I wouldn't tear out what you have if you're not having problems with it. If you've gotten some higher end gear and don't want to "hold it back", then maybe - still, there's a lot of things you could unintentionally do to your signal every day that would do more damage than using Belden cable. Improper gain-staging for example -
Hope that helped, but if you only need a couple cables I'd just buy 'em at a music store (NOT molded ends, and NOT monster, just real connectors, like whirlwind or switchcraft or Neutrik) then cut 'em to length and put new ends on and you're done. If you get them long enough, each one would make two, just add a pair of connectors and you're custom length.
Man, I miss REAL mangoes... Steve
Anyway, the belden you're using is around 32 picofarads/foot capacitance, which is fine for balanced line as long as it's not too long a runs - I like the beldfoil shield setup for making cables, much better than braided shields for fixed installs. If you're looking at longer runs, you may want to think about using AES/EBU 110 ohm digital cable - typically from about 13 picofarads down to maybe 6 picofarads per foot for the expensive Mogami stuff.
The price goes up for less than 1000 feet in most places too, how much were you looking at getting? Also, I don't know about today since I was there in the early '70's, but things used to be impossible to find there and everything worth getting came from the mainland. If that's still the case, shipping won't be cheap for heavy reels of cable either. If you have a local source it might be worth it for smaller quantities just to pay their price.
I've dealt with these guys before, had no complaints although their stuff isn't "name" brand - generally they want 1000' orders though -
http://www.clarkwc.com/catSinglePairShielded.htm
their basic audio cable is similar to belden, same capacitance too - they also have 110 ohm AES cable at 13 picofarads - their site doesn't list prices, you have to request quotes. I RFQ'd both cable types in 1000 foot spools, should get an answer in a day or two, and I'll post it here.
If you're going to be doing very much cabling, I'd definitely ask for samples of any cable you're considering - I once bought a 1000' spool of cable without sampling it first, had no choice at the time but to use it - the stuff was EPDM rubber sheath, the sheath was bonded to the braided shield, it had extra fillers to make it round so it was FAT, the sheath wouldn't slide along itself worth crap, took about 20 minutes per connect, couldn't pull it through any other wires without a winch, what a PITA. I will NEVER do that again...
Solder - look for SN63, eutectic solder. Easiest thing in the world to use, flows at slightly lower temps than SN60 (amazing what 3% more tin will do) - If you can't find it locally, try Newark Electronics - about $25 for a 1 lb. spool, do your whole studio -
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce ... id=72C1195
The lower temp means better connections, less burned insulation, etc -
I wouldn't bother with separate flux, get a small stainless steel wire brush if your contacts aren't still shiny, and clean them up with the brush, then just use the solder above.
Most silver-bearing solders are crappy to use, need more heat, etc - knowing Rat Shack theirs is even worse than the REAL stuff. I bought a couple RCA connectors from them once, discovered that a real Switchcraft #3502 had enough metal to make about 2-1/2 of the Rat Shack ones. Cabling isn't my life's ambition, so why would I want to do it over and over instead of doing it ONCE the correct way...
Personally, true to the above statement I wouldn't tear out what you have if you're not having problems with it. If you've gotten some higher end gear and don't want to "hold it back", then maybe - still, there's a lot of things you could unintentionally do to your signal every day that would do more damage than using Belden cable. Improper gain-staging for example -
Hope that helped, but if you only need a couple cables I'd just buy 'em at a music store (NOT molded ends, and NOT monster, just real connectors, like whirlwind or switchcraft or Neutrik) then cut 'em to length and put new ends on and you're done. If you get them long enough, each one would make two, just add a pair of connectors and you're custom length.
Man, I miss REAL mangoes... Steve
-
Stabb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:41 am
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Steve,
Yes, you've very much helped me, thank you.
Mine is a 2 bedroom home studio.
So my cable runs are very short.
When I mic up its usually -
A Neumann TLM 103 or a KM184 into a Grace Design 101 mic pre with a 20' Monster (sorry!) 'Studio Pro 1000' cable.
From there patched into an old Neve mastering EQ then into an old DBX 160.
This goes into the analog inputs of a Tascam MX-2424.
You hit the nail on the head with the "hold it back" part.
Do you think the Belden 8451 in short patch runs holds the setup back?
Actually I am pleased with some of the sounds that I've been getting.
But it can always be better, right?
BTW - the reason for all of this is I've decided to add an Empirical Labs Distressor to the setup.
The soldering pointers were just what I needed. Made perfect sense.
Thank you so very much!!!
Stabb
Is it legal to ship mangoes to CA?
Yes, you've very much helped me, thank you.
Mine is a 2 bedroom home studio.
So my cable runs are very short.
When I mic up its usually -
A Neumann TLM 103 or a KM184 into a Grace Design 101 mic pre with a 20' Monster (sorry!) 'Studio Pro 1000' cable.
From there patched into an old Neve mastering EQ then into an old DBX 160.
This goes into the analog inputs of a Tascam MX-2424.
You hit the nail on the head with the "hold it back" part.
Do you think the Belden 8451 in short patch runs holds the setup back?
Actually I am pleased with some of the sounds that I've been getting.
But it can always be better, right?
BTW - the reason for all of this is I've decided to add an Empirical Labs Distressor to the setup.
The soldering pointers were just what I needed. Made perfect sense.
Thank you so very much!!!
Stabb
Is it legal to ship mangoes to CA?
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
It's not that Monster is bad, it's just overpriced for what you get. If you were about to re-cable your whole studio, and needed maybe 100-150 cables, you'd go broke buying Monster, even the lower priced 500 series. You can buy bulk cable and connectors and get as good or better performance for a lot less than $80 per cable.
The Belden's capacitance shouldn't hurt your high end on short runs - it's only when the total cable run per channel gets over maybe 20-25 feet that 32 pf/foot starts to hurt the "air" in your sound. You won't notice anything different in lower frequencies either way.
The Grace stuff is so close to a "straight wire with gain" that you might hear some HF loss using the Belden - I've not measured the capacitance of Monster stuff to see how it stacks up in that way, but if you can find some AES 110 ohm digital cable and make your own you may notice enough difference in "air" to make it worthwhile. It's always better to CUT frequencies than to have to boost them, both from a phase shift standpoint as well as noise levels...
Not sure if shipping Mangoes is legal, I'm in Oregon though - I've gotten a few good ones from Costco, but usually they're lucky to even LOOK like one. Mainly just whining, not to worry.
What are you using to mix down the MX2424? Just curious - I've had a DM-24 for almost 2 years now, and have yet to hear it. Tascam kind of dropped the ball as far as interfaces in my book. I finally, just the other day, saw where they're bringing out a Firewire card for the DM and the SX units, about $360 street price, availability around first of the year. I'll be on the list for sure, don't wanna have to go MOTU with a PC and everything else is $$$$ - Still no hurry on any of that, since space is non-existent at the moment. Hoping to break ground on a new free-standing 2400 sf facility in a couple years, meantime I'd have to "back up" in order to go crazy.
If you have a capacitance meter, I'd check the Monster cables out - that's not the ONLY parameter that counts, but it's a biggie... Steve
The Belden's capacitance shouldn't hurt your high end on short runs - it's only when the total cable run per channel gets over maybe 20-25 feet that 32 pf/foot starts to hurt the "air" in your sound. You won't notice anything different in lower frequencies either way.
The Grace stuff is so close to a "straight wire with gain" that you might hear some HF loss using the Belden - I've not measured the capacitance of Monster stuff to see how it stacks up in that way, but if you can find some AES 110 ohm digital cable and make your own you may notice enough difference in "air" to make it worthwhile. It's always better to CUT frequencies than to have to boost them, both from a phase shift standpoint as well as noise levels...
Not sure if shipping Mangoes is legal, I'm in Oregon though - I've gotten a few good ones from Costco, but usually they're lucky to even LOOK like one. Mainly just whining, not to worry.
What are you using to mix down the MX2424? Just curious - I've had a DM-24 for almost 2 years now, and have yet to hear it. Tascam kind of dropped the ball as far as interfaces in my book. I finally, just the other day, saw where they're bringing out a Firewire card for the DM and the SX units, about $360 street price, availability around first of the year. I'll be on the list for sure, don't wanna have to go MOTU with a PC and everything else is $$$$ - Still no hurry on any of that, since space is non-existent at the moment. Hoping to break ground on a new free-standing 2400 sf facility in a couple years, meantime I'd have to "back up" in order to go crazy.
If you have a capacitance meter, I'd check the Monster cables out - that's not the ONLY parameter that counts, but it's a biggie... Steve
-
Stabb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:41 am
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Wow Steve, thanks for the great info!!!
Maybe I haven't been looking hard enough, but I haven't seen this topic addressed.
I have a 3rd hand 02r (v1) I got thru Digibid.com.
3 TDIF cables connect the MX-2424 and the 02r.
I also have an old DA-88 TDIFed to the 4th 02r slot, but I almost never use it.
How's the DM? What do you record to?
Its funny, the biggest reason I opted for the MX-2424 is the back panel looked way more impressive than the others (way more and different connectors).
But yes, the 1 thing it doesn't have is a Firewire jack or at least a card slot for an option. That would have been a lot more convenient than what I did.
Just for backing up files, I got the StorCase Data Express removable drive bay system.
I think I ended up spending about $700 for -
2 hd carriers
2 frames
1 external enclosure
1 ultra2wide PCI card (to hook up the external to my G4)
1 U2wide cable
1 U2wide terminator
Yep, a Firewire interface on the MX would have saved me a LOT of time and $$$.
The software 'MXView', is kind of finicky but it works.
(Usually MXView on my G4 crashes and the MX keeps running)
I just record my own stuff and don't rent out the studio so I don't have the pressure of having to have things work perfectly for a client.
Is it the MX that you haven't heard yet?
I brought the MX to a 'real' studio to mix 2 songs (on an SSL).
I was ok with what I heard.
Whatever my tracks lacked sonically I attributed to my room.
That was at my old apt and vocs were recorded in a bedroom complete w/ bed! (w/ the old handclap acoustic check bit)
Now I have 2 dedicated rooms in my house and I have a much better handle on acoustics (thanks largely to this great website).
Sonically, I think I've a long way to go before the MX becomes the weak link.
(Although, Tascam dropped the MX forum - jeez!)
I will take your advice and look for some AES 110 ohm digital cable.
I have a brother who probably has a cap meter (He used to work at the phone co and I got 2 TT patch bays when they went digi switching!).
Thanks again Steve, for the great info!
Aloha,
Stabb
Maybe I haven't been looking hard enough, but I haven't seen this topic addressed.
I have a 3rd hand 02r (v1) I got thru Digibid.com.
3 TDIF cables connect the MX-2424 and the 02r.
I also have an old DA-88 TDIFed to the 4th 02r slot, but I almost never use it.
How's the DM? What do you record to?
Its funny, the biggest reason I opted for the MX-2424 is the back panel looked way more impressive than the others (way more and different connectors).
But yes, the 1 thing it doesn't have is a Firewire jack or at least a card slot for an option. That would have been a lot more convenient than what I did.
Just for backing up files, I got the StorCase Data Express removable drive bay system.
I think I ended up spending about $700 for -
2 hd carriers
2 frames
1 external enclosure
1 ultra2wide PCI card (to hook up the external to my G4)
1 U2wide cable
1 U2wide terminator
Yep, a Firewire interface on the MX would have saved me a LOT of time and $$$.
The software 'MXView', is kind of finicky but it works.
(Usually MXView on my G4 crashes and the MX keeps running)
I just record my own stuff and don't rent out the studio so I don't have the pressure of having to have things work perfectly for a client.
Is it the MX that you haven't heard yet?
I brought the MX to a 'real' studio to mix 2 songs (on an SSL).
I was ok with what I heard.
Whatever my tracks lacked sonically I attributed to my room.
That was at my old apt and vocs were recorded in a bedroom complete w/ bed! (w/ the old handclap acoustic check bit)
Now I have 2 dedicated rooms in my house and I have a much better handle on acoustics (thanks largely to this great website).
Sonically, I think I've a long way to go before the MX becomes the weak link.
(Although, Tascam dropped the MX forum - jeez!)
I will take your advice and look for some AES 110 ohm digital cable.
I have a brother who probably has a cap meter (He used to work at the phone co and I got 2 TT patch bays when they went digi switching!).
Thanks again Steve, for the great info!
Aloha,
Stabb
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Hi Kevin - actually, my studio's been down for over a year (glad it's not my living) and I've yet to hear anything through the DM-24, partly my own situation and partly Tascam - they, nor anyone else, made a decent DAW interface when I still had the $$$ - life managed to temporarily take care of having the $$$, so nada 4 now. Once I get the firewire card for the DM, (AFAIK it only fits the DM24 and the SX-1) I'll be putting a new DAW together (old one is only 500 mHz P-3) and upgrading Samplitude from V6 to V7.??, all of which will temporarily be living in a bedroom with a few pieces of 703 in strategic spots. Far from ideal, but further from insanity than I am at present...
I was really ticced to see Tascam drop the forum, I think they did themselves more harm than good... Steve
I was really ticced to see Tascam drop the forum, I think they did themselves more harm than good... Steve
-
Stabb
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:41 am
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Hi Steve,
This site was down so long I stopped checking!
When Tascam dropped the MX Forum I went looking around and found this great site.
And when this site went down, I found the RO site, so for me the Tascam/MX forum deal was a good thing.
Besides, my MX has generally served me well and I'm really happy with it.
I think that you might be short on $$$ because you spend your time helping others!
I haven't gotten to ordering the digi cable you described but I will soon, since my Distressor is here (I just plugged it in w/my DAT players patch cables).
Thanks again, Steve
Stabb
This site was down so long I stopped checking!
When Tascam dropped the MX Forum I went looking around and found this great site.
And when this site went down, I found the RO site, so for me the Tascam/MX forum deal was a good thing.
Besides, my MX has generally served me well and I'm really happy with it.
I think that you might be short on $$$ because you spend your time helping others!
I haven't gotten to ordering the digi cable you described but I will soon, since my Distressor is here (I just plugged it in w/my DAT players patch cables).
Thanks again, Steve
Stabb
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Glad to help - BTW, you may notice that I also help moderate the acoustics forum on RO - noticed your posts a while back. However, it's much easier to handle that type question here, what with not having to find a place to post pix.
The time thing has gotten a bit out of hand, I'm looking into some ways to cut back and still get people the help they need... Steve
The time thing has gotten a bit out of hand, I'm looking into some ways to cut back and still get people the help they need... Steve