FLOOR/CEILING/WALL CONSTRUCTION SEQUENCE

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:42 pm

After much reading I'm still not clear on the actual sequence of putting the floors/ ceilings/ walls together. Some pix show walls going all the way up with the ceiling suspended below the top of the wall, others show just the opposite, with the ceiling up first and the walls going up to just below the ceiling. So...what have some of you actually done and how did you (sequentially) go about it?

My real question is, how do I get the insulation inside my wall (on the floated floor in the iso room) if the adjacent wall is already up? Do I build the wall on its side and then just hoist it up in place? And should the ceiling be completely done at this point?

I've really learned a lot of useful info on this forum and now I'm at the point of getting everything in place for the final phase of construction-just want to know the best step-by-step method.

Sorry if I've overlooked some obvious points-again thanks for all the great info so far!

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:31 pm

"My real question is, how do I get the insulation inside my wall (on the floated floor in the iso room) if the adjacent wall is already up? Do I build the wall on its side and then just hoist it up in place? And should the ceiling be completely done at this point? " -

You can put up just the frame, then the insulation between frame members, then the wallboard, then the ceiling(s) - if you use a continuous ceiling between rooms, you've just reduced isolation quite a bit because of flanking noise thru the ceiling panels.

There is a drawing of my preferred way, along with a home-built sway bracket that will locate the second frame without hard contact between frames - scroll down just below the "toy box" illustration -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=45

Hope that helps... Steve

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:35 am

I was just looking at that post before starting this new topic...I can't be doing metal work right now. I've got some timelines and need to get this place functional. Additionally, I am renting (sucks, but that's my situation), so I need to somehow do the best I can without going overboard on materials/time.

The wall between the control room and the iso booth is up already. Unfortunately I didn't discover this forum until after puttin it up. The wall is screwed to the header, the floor and the adjacent walls...yes, I know now that that is not good. I would really hate to tear it all down, as I framed in a window, caulked it etc. I have built a 2X4 floating floor for the iso booth that will be placed on the neoprene pads. Then I will build a second wall adjacent to the existing one I've already mentioned (with a @3-4 inch air gap between). My dilemma is getting the iso wall mounted at the top. Your metal bracket is great, but I have neither the time/tools to learn how to build that and then actually build it before my January deadlines. Perhaps there is another solution...if I put the ceiling in first, then put the wall up with a 1/8" gap between it and the ceiling, then caulk the hell outta that, would that be structurally sound? My gut says, "no" as the only place it would be secured is at the bottom (on top of the floating floor).
Should I use metal studs for the iso wall and just run them up to the existing ceiling? I am using RC-1 for sheetrocking the ceiling, so my ceiling will be floating from the existing ceiling frames. (I suppose I should borrow a digital camera and post pix of what I've already got...would that expedite matters greatly?)

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:59 am

Yeah, pix would help a lot - along with a better description of what you call a "wall" - if you read the "complete section" sticky, hopefully the importance of how many centers of mass (leaves) jumped out at you - if by "wall" you mean what most builders mean, as in stud frame, wallboard on each side, then that's NOT good if you want to add yet another wall.

Pretend you're a "sound" and try to get from one area to another. If you have to go thru more than 2 masses (3 sheets of wallboard one over the other is ONE mass) or more than one air space, then things won't be as good (you, as a sound, can get thru easier)

Sooo, some pix, a clarification of your existing construction, layer by layer, room to room, and we're getting there... Steve

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:37 am

What I mean by a wall is what you mean as well...double-wall construction (filled with mineral wool-using Thermafiber), air space between with several layers of sheetrock, one side (inside the control room) mounted on RC-1.

I've read the Complete Section sticky many times, but I just didn't find that all-important step-by-step sequential description.

Give me three or four days to acquire the camera and post pix--check back in this thread early next week if you can: I really appreciate your help here Steve.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 1:11 am

Least I can do after accusing you and Michael of "needing a room"

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:59 am

Ok, I'm going to try to post some pix...hope it works-hope it helps.[/img]
The existing wall between the iso and control. There will be another wall built on the floating floor in the iso which is the side withOUT insulation (presently). That is a 6" wide header to which I attached the 2X4 top of the frame.

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:07 am

Another view: notice the sprinkler system...my RC/sheetrock layers will have to go above/around this sprinkler. There is 1.5" between the suspended ceiling and the TOP of the sprinkler unit (the round blue part); there are 2.75" total down to the actual sprinkler head. Lower right corner you can see the old ceiling tiles. To the left of the sprinkler you can see brown paper-it covers the vent system that is no longer in use, but rather large and not removable (per landlords order).

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:12 am

View looking at the top of the wall into the rafters between the rooms. The dark red horizontal piece is a steel beam.

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:13 am

another view into the rafters...

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:09 pm

What's your available headroom from floor to underside of your ceiling runners?

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:31 pm

9' 1/2" from floor (without the floating floor) to underside of the runners.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:45 pm

OK, now if you can explain what construction you plan to end up with between the iso and the control room - it sounded to me like you intend to panel both sides of the existing frame, and then build ANOTHER frame on the iso side and panel that? I"m hoping that's NOT what you meant, but without some kind of drawing it's hard to be sure. I've done tech writing for a living, and I still sometimes don't make myself clear until the third or fourth attempt.

If your existing wall frame between iso and CR is solidly connected to both floor and ceiling joists, you will have flanking noise at least on the side that has no RC - the sound will excite the panels, they will excite the frame, and the frame will excite the rest of the framing that's rigidly coupled. That will eventually pass through to paneling in other rooms and re-radiate as sound.

Short of removing and re-doing the existing frame between Iso and CR, you could put a second frame close to the existing one, and NOT mount it hard to both floor and ceiling joists - the problem here is that I don't know of a way to do this fast or easy. I've saved myself a fair amount of grief over the years by remembering the saying, "Fast, Good, Cheap - Pick ANY TWO - you can NEVER have all THREE - "

One way you might be able to do it - bite the bullet and BUY sway brackets. Kinetics has them for somewhere between $25 and $50 each - your wall would need them probably every 4 feet. If you're interested, here's a link -

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/architectu ... ation.html

The KWSB might work for mounting a second frame - just remember that each frame can only have ONE side paneled, or you LOSE isolation.

Kinetics doesn't sell direct, so you would need to contact them from their site and get the # of their closest rep if you want to do this.

I have another DIY way that may work for you, but I'm past bedtime and not finished drawing - I'll try to get it for you by tomorrow nite if possible... Steve

luvshinerbock · Post by **luvshinerbock** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:05 am

I don't have a drawing program...sorry.
Here was/is the plan. The existing wall in the pix will be the wall IN the control room. INside the control room will be a leaf of RC1+drywall (x2)+(perhaps the GAF TRy-Ply as well). Of course there will be mineral wool insulation (3") in between the studs. I've already placed the Thermafiber insulation in the ceiling of the control room as you can see from the first picture I posted (that picture is a view from inside the control room). There will be NO drywall on the side that faces the iso booth. That much I have picked up.

Then, in the iso booth, I have built a floating floor (2X4) that will sit on 1/2" neoprene strips, filled with insulation (same as above). I haven't yet purchased the flooring to go on top of this construction. Can't decide from reading posts if the 3/4" plywood is good or not...kind of depends on who you listen to around here. On top of the floating floor will be the ISO booth wall which would need to be attached somehow, and that has led me to post this initially. On the iso booth wall I will use drywall (x2) plus insulation and again, maybe the GAF (that stuff is really dense/limp mass).

Your link is great! That may be the solution, albeit expensive. What's another $200, though...to knock down flanking noise it would be worth it. (If I go this route, I'm going to need some advice on mounting).

Do you think it would be a good idea to insulate the cavity surrounding the red beam seen in the last two pix? This is what "separates" the iso from the control booth ABOVE the runners and between the 2nd floor joists.

I can take more pix if necessary...as always, this forum is great! It's only delayed my construction by a few months!

I don't mind-I might actually end up with some rooms that work.

dean

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:45 am

Here is a cheaper way for you - only involves cutting and gluing strips of neoprene to wood, and the temporary use of a 12" C-clamp. As to insulating around the "big red beam", do it. You almost can't get too much insulation between leaves of a sound barrier... Steve