First of all thank you for this board it is an incredible resource. Here's the deal, another garage studio. After 18 years of mixing broadcast I've finally decided to build a small facility for some outside projects. Most of my work is in Postproduction and have recently been gaining experience in 5.1. I would still like to record the occasional band and as a drummer it would be nice to have a kit miked and ready to go.
These are the current limitations. Refer to attached word doc (hope you can see these). The door to the outside cannot move, the bathroom will have to be along the wall that the door to the house is on for plumbing purposes.
The floor is still up for grabs. The plan so far is to nail a 2x4 to the bottom plate along the exterior wall with a piece of 1/2 inch 60 durometer neoprene sandwiched between the bottom plate and the 2x4. 2x4 floor joists will be strung off of the 2x4 that is attached to the bottom plate. The floor for each room will be built separately. The only contact between floors in different rooms would be 1/2-inch neoprene between them. Will this work?
As seen in the included word doc the wall detail is as follows. Outside wall is brick then celotex attached to 2x4 studs on 16-inch centers. Compressed insulation will fill the cavity with 2 sheets of 5/8 rock hung on resilient channel. Sufficient? Interior walls are steel stud on 16-inch centers with 1/2 inch rock on one side (drawing shows 5/8 error) cavity filled with compressed insulation and 2 sheets of 5/8 rock hung off of a channel on the other, sitting on 1/2-inch neoprene. Sufficient?
Should I use acoustic caulk where the 2x4 studs meet the celotex on the exterior walls?
The ceiling is two sheets of 5/8 hung off of a channel with insulation above.
The rear of the control room will have a couch that is not shown in the drawing. I was planning on treating the acoustics of the room after the basic structure was completed. Installing bass traps and absorption as needed. Am I missing anything? Any input is helpful.
Thanks,
Dave Tessier
Green Mountain Audio
5.1 Postproduction in Garage
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dtess
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:47 am
- Location: Denver, CO
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dtess
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:47 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Follow up with pictures instead of word files.
Follow up with pictures instead of word files.
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Dave, it would have been better if you'd just added onto your previous post (unless you accidentally posted twice) - I'm deleting the other one, and moving my reply here -
Dave, I'm short on time right now, but will review your pix and post tonight if possible, and will get back to you hopefully by this time tomorrow, or a bit later. Had a little trouble with the Word graphics, but I'm used to it. finally got the **#*%&*# things to show up...
You can post pix straight to the site, just click the browse button, find it on your drive, and post it. Works with most pix files, pdf's, etc... Steve
Dave, I'm short on time right now, but will review your pix and post tonight if possible, and will get back to you hopefully by this time tomorrow, or a bit later. Had a little trouble with the Word graphics, but I'm used to it. finally got the **#*%&*# things to show up...
You can post pix straight to the site, just click the browse button, find it on your drive, and post it. Works with most pix files, pdf's, etc... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
No problem Dave - One thing I will ask though, is that you don't post the same question in more than one forum - it just confuses things and makes us work harder to keep things flowing.
Some questions for you -
1. Are your speakers going to be free-standing, located on the circle?
2. For your left surround speaker, can you get 110 degrees from front center without the door interfering? Looks close -
3. I didn’t see a figure for ceiling height - Also, do you plan to slope the ceiling or keep it level?
4. You’ve asked if several things are sufficient - there’s no way to answer that without knowing what your exterior sound conditions are, how picky your neighbors are, what other family members will tolerate, how hard you thrash your drums, etc - would need quite a bit more detail to get into this part.
5. Which parts of this are actually already built, and which are not?
6. Is there room to put a double door between house and studio? (See #4)
7. Are the brick walls free-standing, and do they have weep holes along the bottom, or are they airtight?
8. When you say “inside wall”, do you mean ALL inside walls, including the one between control room and drum room? Are you planning one of these walls separating rooms, or two?
9. Do you also plan to mix Stereo as well as 5.1? If so, you’ll probably want to consider some re-configurable panels for the front/side walls. The rear will need good broadband absorption in either case.
10. Do you have any thoughts yet on the control room window? Isolation enough to mic drums while listening to the speakers (instead of the bleed) isn’t an easy thing to do.
11. What’s above your proposed ceiling? Is it just the attic, and is that space vented to the outside? If so, you’ll need a second leaf in your studio ceiling.
Here are some observations I can give without waiting for your answers to the above -
1. Floor - as soon as you put nails between your floated floor and the un-floated wall frame, you’ve just negated roughly 80% or more of the benefit of floating floors - this is due to flanking noise through the fasteners. Your best bet there would be to just rest the floor frame on neoprene, and put your neoprene “perimeter band” in like you show, just don’t nail through the neoprene. ½” flooring won’t be solid enough for your floor, either - its resonant frequency is too high, and you’ll hear it. Better to use 1-1/8 T&G OSB flooring, glued and screwed. Insulation between joists is a good dampener.
2. If your brick wall is hermetically sealed, in other words WITHOUT weep holes, the construction you outlined should give around STC 66, with Transmission Loss at 50 hZ of around 35 dB. See the TL chart, it’s a close approximation for your outside wall, IF the bricks are hermetically sealed with no weep holes. (unlikely…)
If, however, your brick wall DOES have weep holes, that will probably drop your wall performance down by at least 20 dB, just a wild guess. I don’t have a way of calculating air leaks so I can only guess here. BTW, you do NOT want to seal weep holes if they’re there - it could cause your wall to crumble due to water damage, grow mold, etc - nothing good.
3. Your interior wall design leaves quite a bit to be desired if you expect much isolation between the drum room and the control room, or anywhere else for that matter - I just calculated the STC, and it isn’t great. It’s about STC 51, but it drops clear down to 20 dB at 50 hZ, which isn’t much for killing drums. RC, by the way, does almost nothing for a lightweight (25 gauge) steel stud wall. You would do better to use separate frames of steel studs - slightly more space required, but vastly better performance and almost zero cost difference.
Also, you do NOT want your walls sitting on ½” neoprene - it’s too much of a spring and will allow too much lateral movement. You need one of the two leaves of a sound wall to be very stiff and solid for best performance. You have to be careful when choosing a resilient fastening - it’s easily possible to pick a “spring” rate that will make resonance AMPLIFIED instead of reduced.
The things that make walls soundproof - mass, air space, stiffness and decoupling. More mass, better TL. Wider air space, better TL. This affects lower frequencies more than upper ones. Stiffer leaves, better low freq. TL. Separate frames for each leaf can improve performance by about 10 dB over Resilient Channel and wood studs, in an 8 inch cavity double layered wall. Different construction on each side of a wall helps too.
What your goal should be in order to maximise sound isolation, is for your entire space to be surrounded by two layers of mass, which are separated by one air space. Neither of these layers of mass (leaves) should touch the other one anywhere. The more mass and the wider air space, the better isolation.
Of course, this isn’t actually achievable 100%, but the closer you get the more isolation you get. When you’re evaluating a construction technique, these are the criteria you should look for. Any time you can break a physical, hard connection between wall leaves, you gain isolation. Any time you only have ONE center of mass (leaf) between you and the noise, you LOSE.
It might be simpler if you were to tell me how much isolation you want between rooms, how much space (wall thickness total) you can spare, and what your budget is - then I could offer some ideas based around those values.
Your turn… Steve
Some questions for you -
1. Are your speakers going to be free-standing, located on the circle?
2. For your left surround speaker, can you get 110 degrees from front center without the door interfering? Looks close -
3. I didn’t see a figure for ceiling height - Also, do you plan to slope the ceiling or keep it level?
4. You’ve asked if several things are sufficient - there’s no way to answer that without knowing what your exterior sound conditions are, how picky your neighbors are, what other family members will tolerate, how hard you thrash your drums, etc - would need quite a bit more detail to get into this part.
5. Which parts of this are actually already built, and which are not?
6. Is there room to put a double door between house and studio? (See #4)
7. Are the brick walls free-standing, and do they have weep holes along the bottom, or are they airtight?
8. When you say “inside wall”, do you mean ALL inside walls, including the one between control room and drum room? Are you planning one of these walls separating rooms, or two?
9. Do you also plan to mix Stereo as well as 5.1? If so, you’ll probably want to consider some re-configurable panels for the front/side walls. The rear will need good broadband absorption in either case.
10. Do you have any thoughts yet on the control room window? Isolation enough to mic drums while listening to the speakers (instead of the bleed) isn’t an easy thing to do.
11. What’s above your proposed ceiling? Is it just the attic, and is that space vented to the outside? If so, you’ll need a second leaf in your studio ceiling.
Here are some observations I can give without waiting for your answers to the above -
1. Floor - as soon as you put nails between your floated floor and the un-floated wall frame, you’ve just negated roughly 80% or more of the benefit of floating floors - this is due to flanking noise through the fasteners. Your best bet there would be to just rest the floor frame on neoprene, and put your neoprene “perimeter band” in like you show, just don’t nail through the neoprene. ½” flooring won’t be solid enough for your floor, either - its resonant frequency is too high, and you’ll hear it. Better to use 1-1/8 T&G OSB flooring, glued and screwed. Insulation between joists is a good dampener.
2. If your brick wall is hermetically sealed, in other words WITHOUT weep holes, the construction you outlined should give around STC 66, with Transmission Loss at 50 hZ of around 35 dB. See the TL chart, it’s a close approximation for your outside wall, IF the bricks are hermetically sealed with no weep holes. (unlikely…)
If, however, your brick wall DOES have weep holes, that will probably drop your wall performance down by at least 20 dB, just a wild guess. I don’t have a way of calculating air leaks so I can only guess here. BTW, you do NOT want to seal weep holes if they’re there - it could cause your wall to crumble due to water damage, grow mold, etc - nothing good.
3. Your interior wall design leaves quite a bit to be desired if you expect much isolation between the drum room and the control room, or anywhere else for that matter - I just calculated the STC, and it isn’t great. It’s about STC 51, but it drops clear down to 20 dB at 50 hZ, which isn’t much for killing drums. RC, by the way, does almost nothing for a lightweight (25 gauge) steel stud wall. You would do better to use separate frames of steel studs - slightly more space required, but vastly better performance and almost zero cost difference.
Also, you do NOT want your walls sitting on ½” neoprene - it’s too much of a spring and will allow too much lateral movement. You need one of the two leaves of a sound wall to be very stiff and solid for best performance. You have to be careful when choosing a resilient fastening - it’s easily possible to pick a “spring” rate that will make resonance AMPLIFIED instead of reduced.
The things that make walls soundproof - mass, air space, stiffness and decoupling. More mass, better TL. Wider air space, better TL. This affects lower frequencies more than upper ones. Stiffer leaves, better low freq. TL. Separate frames for each leaf can improve performance by about 10 dB over Resilient Channel and wood studs, in an 8 inch cavity double layered wall. Different construction on each side of a wall helps too.
What your goal should be in order to maximise sound isolation, is for your entire space to be surrounded by two layers of mass, which are separated by one air space. Neither of these layers of mass (leaves) should touch the other one anywhere. The more mass and the wider air space, the better isolation.
Of course, this isn’t actually achievable 100%, but the closer you get the more isolation you get. When you’re evaluating a construction technique, these are the criteria you should look for. Any time you can break a physical, hard connection between wall leaves, you gain isolation. Any time you only have ONE center of mass (leaf) between you and the noise, you LOSE.
It might be simpler if you were to tell me how much isolation you want between rooms, how much space (wall thickness total) you can spare, and what your budget is - then I could offer some ideas based around those values.
Your turn… Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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dtess
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:47 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Steve,
Questions:
#1 yes
#2 Might end up elevating both surrounds to solve that problem.
#3 Finish will be 8'. Confused about sloping becuase of the surround factor, I want to treat the ceiling but not sure on how to approach it.
#4 The neighborhood is very quiet, it's a cul de sac not much traffic or other noise. Trying to accomplish several things. Certainly don't want to disturb the neighbors in any way. The closest house to mine is approx. 30 ft. and that is a garage the others are across the cul de sac and 60 feet down a hill. Most of the work will be in the control room so would like to keep that as big as possible for client comfort. Also plan on mounting a plasma above the control room window. Drum level I'm thinking worse case, so, loud. The live room could also be used for foley& sfx creation.
#5 The outside door is on the south side, the south and east walls are brick, celotex and 2x4 no drywall or insulation. The west wall is where the garage door is, the plan is to nail the door to the opening for appereance sake and build a wall behind it. The opening in the bathroom will be filled in. Right now the garage is a empty shell.
#6 Yes the door will be rarely used. More for me and to meet local code.
#7 Freestanding? It's a brick veneer the structure is supported by the 2x4 framing. Don't see any holes but it seems like a good idea to run acoustic caulk where the celotex meets the 2x4 to make it air tight.
#8 Inside walls, yeah that wasn't very clear. The walls between the control room, drum room, bathroom and vocal booth. The thicker black walls in the drawing.
#9 Yes. That is a great idea are you talking fibeglass panels? Any ideas for a broadband absorber?
10# Planning on the window design John specs on his site.
11# It is attic, the way the rafters are built a second leaf will be difficult but can be done. Thoughts on how to, on second leaf.
The more I thought about the floor I figured as soon as I nailed it to the wall it would negate the benefit.
It would be great to have a enough isolation to track a drumkit and not have bleed into the control room be a problem. It sounds to me like I need to give up more space. Give me a scenario and I'll start incorparating it. Budget is up to $10.000.00. My father-in-law use to build houses so he has the tools and know how. At this point the budget is for materials anything left over goes for new mic pre's, mics and other goodies and that would be a darn good thing.
This is a different a animal than the experience I have in broadcast, your time and effort is very helpfull.
Thanks,
Dave
Questions:
#1 yes
#2 Might end up elevating both surrounds to solve that problem.
#3 Finish will be 8'. Confused about sloping becuase of the surround factor, I want to treat the ceiling but not sure on how to approach it.
#4 The neighborhood is very quiet, it's a cul de sac not much traffic or other noise. Trying to accomplish several things. Certainly don't want to disturb the neighbors in any way. The closest house to mine is approx. 30 ft. and that is a garage the others are across the cul de sac and 60 feet down a hill. Most of the work will be in the control room so would like to keep that as big as possible for client comfort. Also plan on mounting a plasma above the control room window. Drum level I'm thinking worse case, so, loud. The live room could also be used for foley& sfx creation.
#5 The outside door is on the south side, the south and east walls are brick, celotex and 2x4 no drywall or insulation. The west wall is where the garage door is, the plan is to nail the door to the opening for appereance sake and build a wall behind it. The opening in the bathroom will be filled in. Right now the garage is a empty shell.
#6 Yes the door will be rarely used. More for me and to meet local code.
#7 Freestanding? It's a brick veneer the structure is supported by the 2x4 framing. Don't see any holes but it seems like a good idea to run acoustic caulk where the celotex meets the 2x4 to make it air tight.
#8 Inside walls, yeah that wasn't very clear. The walls between the control room, drum room, bathroom and vocal booth. The thicker black walls in the drawing.
#9 Yes. That is a great idea are you talking fibeglass panels? Any ideas for a broadband absorber?
10# Planning on the window design John specs on his site.
11# It is attic, the way the rafters are built a second leaf will be difficult but can be done. Thoughts on how to, on second leaf.
The more I thought about the floor I figured as soon as I nailed it to the wall it would negate the benefit.
It would be great to have a enough isolation to track a drumkit and not have bleed into the control room be a problem. It sounds to me like I need to give up more space. Give me a scenario and I'll start incorparating it. Budget is up to $10.000.00. My father-in-law use to build houses so he has the tools and know how. At this point the budget is for materials anything left over goes for new mic pre's, mics and other goodies and that would be a darn good thing.
This is a different a animal than the experience I have in broadcast, your time and effort is very helpfull.
Thanks,
Dave
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
OK, no big surprise but there are still several considerations left to sort out - To stick partially to the numbered question format, let's go in order -
2. Elevating surrounds isn't a good idea if you can get away from it, any more than elevating mains. Less reflection problems and more predictable acoustics when they are at ear level.
3. Join the club on ceiling confusion for surround - if you're not up to a pentagonal dome, I'd just keep it flat and absorb same as any small room, with 2-3" of fiberglas board stood off by a few inches. This is workable for both stereo and surround.
4. Sounds like sound getting out is slightly less problem than sound getting in (walls are not diodes, so they work both ways - all I meant was that in your case outside sound getting in may be of more concern) - I say that because you mentioned Foley and SFX as a use for the "drum room" - I know just enough about Foley to be dangerous, but one thing that stuck in my mind was the need for GOOD isolation - soft noises, sensitive mics with flat pickup response, etc, all require QUIET in the room. Between this need, and the desire for low bleed from drums, you need to make this room your "vault" as much as practical.
Also, depending on the depth of your Foley adventures you may need storage for various "roll-ups", boxes for gravel, sand, etc, (foot steps) and probably a bunch of other goodies I'm yet to get familiar with, for generation of Foley sounds. (Like a refrigerator for storing those bunches of celery for "neck snapping" sounds, etc)
Another consideration here, due to the multiple uses for this room, would be variable acoustics such as John's plan for hinged absorbers, or Everest's similar plan with different surfaces. At least one slat absorber tuned to 300 hZ would be a good idea; that's the prime resonant frequency of most kick drums that usually gets pulled back in the mix sooner or later.
5. If you nail the garage door to the opening and it's a fairly heavy door, it can probably act as the outer leaf of your 2-leaf wall on that side - the inner leaf should be pretty heavy to make up for the outer one, and a deeper air space between inner and outer leaves will help with isolation down into the lower frequency ranges. All surfaces must be sealed airtight. I'm assuming you will remove the door tracks, as these are nearly impossible to cope with.
6. Is this a "yes, it will be a double door", or ? see the new #4 for my concerns on isolation in your situation (foley, mainly)
7. Weep holes are generally small - caulking where you mentioned is probably a good idea in any case. If these walls don't seem very quiet, you might consider adding a couple of layers of sheet rock between the studs and sealing them with caulk before putting up the inner walls. That will balance out the two masses if the bricks are more "for show" (vented) - again, most masonry used this way IS vented in some way to avoid condensation buildup. Trust me, you do NOT want to circumvent this venting if it's there.
8. I got that part - What I wasn't clear on is whether you intend to build one of your posted wall details between rooms, or one of them on EACH FLOOR - if so, you need to change designs. If not, you STILL need to change designs, here's why - Absolute best use of materials/space is to build two, and only two, centers of mass (leaves) separated by one, and only one, airspace (insulation is considered air space), between any two areas you want isolated from each other. Each leaf of this double leaf wall can be as many layers or as thick as you want, as long as successive layers are allowed to act independently but with no airspace between them. (touching, but not fastened to each other except as necessary to hold them onto the frame) - successive layers should be different thickness and/or different materials, heavy as possible. The thread titled "Complete Section" is a good read for more understanding of this.
In your case, wanting a high isolation window and a quiet room for drums/foley, you want two layers MINIMUM of sheet rock on each leaf of your wall, separate frames, as wide an air gap as you can spare the room for, and not too large a window. The window will also need a large air gap between panes, and each pane in its own wall frame; If you intend to splay the glass, you will still need to keep at least 8" air at the narrowest place between panes for good isolation.
9. For my future surround/stereo control room I'm considering building "sockets" into the front/side walls so I can make "inserts" that are either absorptive, reflective, or diffusive so I can see for myself whether the new "ESS" , or Early Sound Scattering, concepts are valid. If you're not interested in ESS, then you could build reversible inserts with paneling on one side and cloth covered fiberglas on the other.
From what I've seen so far, most 5.1 mixers are keeping the control room absorbed wherever a speaker is aimed, and replacing ambience with DSP. Once you put surround speakers in, the RFZ approach gets screwed.
Broadband absorber - frame, thick fiberglas board, cover. Space from wall for lower frequencies. Leave room for as many bass traps as you can, panels take less space but absorptive ones are more broadband. You need to watch for even absorption across the frequency band to keep reverb sounding natural. Ceiling/wall corners are good places for traps, they don't take up valuable floor space and corners are where they work.
10. See last part of #8.
11. Second leaf in attics is a bitch, pure and simple. Some just blow in a foot of blown cellulose, it helps a fair amount. Others attach new joists under existing ceiling (if there's enough room) and fill with insulation, put RC on and 2-3 layers of wallboard. Putting a second leaf on the TOP of a trussed roof ceiling is an excercise in patience I'm not willing to try. I know it could be done, but AARGHHH!!!
Is that $10k budget where the plasma display will come from? If so, what's that leave for materials, about 6k? Hmmm... Steve
2. Elevating surrounds isn't a good idea if you can get away from it, any more than elevating mains. Less reflection problems and more predictable acoustics when they are at ear level.
3. Join the club on ceiling confusion for surround - if you're not up to a pentagonal dome, I'd just keep it flat and absorb same as any small room, with 2-3" of fiberglas board stood off by a few inches. This is workable for both stereo and surround.
4. Sounds like sound getting out is slightly less problem than sound getting in (walls are not diodes, so they work both ways - all I meant was that in your case outside sound getting in may be of more concern) - I say that because you mentioned Foley and SFX as a use for the "drum room" - I know just enough about Foley to be dangerous, but one thing that stuck in my mind was the need for GOOD isolation - soft noises, sensitive mics with flat pickup response, etc, all require QUIET in the room. Between this need, and the desire for low bleed from drums, you need to make this room your "vault" as much as practical.
Also, depending on the depth of your Foley adventures you may need storage for various "roll-ups", boxes for gravel, sand, etc, (foot steps) and probably a bunch of other goodies I'm yet to get familiar with, for generation of Foley sounds. (Like a refrigerator for storing those bunches of celery for "neck snapping" sounds, etc)
Another consideration here, due to the multiple uses for this room, would be variable acoustics such as John's plan for hinged absorbers, or Everest's similar plan with different surfaces. At least one slat absorber tuned to 300 hZ would be a good idea; that's the prime resonant frequency of most kick drums that usually gets pulled back in the mix sooner or later.
5. If you nail the garage door to the opening and it's a fairly heavy door, it can probably act as the outer leaf of your 2-leaf wall on that side - the inner leaf should be pretty heavy to make up for the outer one, and a deeper air space between inner and outer leaves will help with isolation down into the lower frequency ranges. All surfaces must be sealed airtight. I'm assuming you will remove the door tracks, as these are nearly impossible to cope with.
6. Is this a "yes, it will be a double door", or ? see the new #4 for my concerns on isolation in your situation (foley, mainly)
7. Weep holes are generally small - caulking where you mentioned is probably a good idea in any case. If these walls don't seem very quiet, you might consider adding a couple of layers of sheet rock between the studs and sealing them with caulk before putting up the inner walls. That will balance out the two masses if the bricks are more "for show" (vented) - again, most masonry used this way IS vented in some way to avoid condensation buildup. Trust me, you do NOT want to circumvent this venting if it's there.
8. I got that part - What I wasn't clear on is whether you intend to build one of your posted wall details between rooms, or one of them on EACH FLOOR - if so, you need to change designs. If not, you STILL need to change designs, here's why - Absolute best use of materials/space is to build two, and only two, centers of mass (leaves) separated by one, and only one, airspace (insulation is considered air space), between any two areas you want isolated from each other. Each leaf of this double leaf wall can be as many layers or as thick as you want, as long as successive layers are allowed to act independently but with no airspace between them. (touching, but not fastened to each other except as necessary to hold them onto the frame) - successive layers should be different thickness and/or different materials, heavy as possible. The thread titled "Complete Section" is a good read for more understanding of this.
In your case, wanting a high isolation window and a quiet room for drums/foley, you want two layers MINIMUM of sheet rock on each leaf of your wall, separate frames, as wide an air gap as you can spare the room for, and not too large a window. The window will also need a large air gap between panes, and each pane in its own wall frame; If you intend to splay the glass, you will still need to keep at least 8" air at the narrowest place between panes for good isolation.
9. For my future surround/stereo control room I'm considering building "sockets" into the front/side walls so I can make "inserts" that are either absorptive, reflective, or diffusive so I can see for myself whether the new "ESS" , or Early Sound Scattering, concepts are valid. If you're not interested in ESS, then you could build reversible inserts with paneling on one side and cloth covered fiberglas on the other.
From what I've seen so far, most 5.1 mixers are keeping the control room absorbed wherever a speaker is aimed, and replacing ambience with DSP. Once you put surround speakers in, the RFZ approach gets screwed.
Broadband absorber - frame, thick fiberglas board, cover. Space from wall for lower frequencies. Leave room for as many bass traps as you can, panels take less space but absorptive ones are more broadband. You need to watch for even absorption across the frequency band to keep reverb sounding natural. Ceiling/wall corners are good places for traps, they don't take up valuable floor space and corners are where they work.
10. See last part of #8.
11. Second leaf in attics is a bitch, pure and simple. Some just blow in a foot of blown cellulose, it helps a fair amount. Others attach new joists under existing ceiling (if there's enough room) and fill with insulation, put RC on and 2-3 layers of wallboard. Putting a second leaf on the TOP of a trussed roof ceiling is an excercise in patience I'm not willing to try. I know it could be done, but AARGHHH!!!
Is that $10k budget where the plasma display will come from? If so, what's that leave for materials, about 6k? Hmmm... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
dtess
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:47 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Steve,
A couple of questions before I head down the wrong road. I get your point on the drum room the walls should be a double leaf design. On these walls where and how do you attach the top and bottom plate to avoid transmitting to the ceiling and floor? Should both leaves of the wall be attached at the bottom to the concrete floor and the ceiling joist at the top and then build floors around them with neoprene beteween the wall and floor? Working on a drawing.
I hate to give up floor space is thier a decent compromise? 2 sheets 1/2" rock on 2x4(metal?) a 4" air space, 2x4 2 sheets 5/8? Are metal studs better? Or one metal one wood with the wood and 2 sheets of 5/8 on the drum room side? I see you don't recomend RC for low freq just pure mass. If I don't care about bleed into the house can I put up RC and 2 sheets of 5/8 on that wall? It's a kitchen the bedrooms and living areas are on the other side of the house.
The window is going to be smaller and no sliding glass door between the control room and vocal booth.
ESS? Looking into it. Slat absorbers and hinged absorbers for the drum room that will help solve some issues in there
Again this board is incredible! Although I thought I was getting a slight grasp of the concepts your input reveals only years and years of experience fill the gap. I'll post a drawing in a bit.
Thanks,
Dave
A couple of questions before I head down the wrong road. I get your point on the drum room the walls should be a double leaf design. On these walls where and how do you attach the top and bottom plate to avoid transmitting to the ceiling and floor? Should both leaves of the wall be attached at the bottom to the concrete floor and the ceiling joist at the top and then build floors around them with neoprene beteween the wall and floor? Working on a drawing.
I hate to give up floor space is thier a decent compromise? 2 sheets 1/2" rock on 2x4(metal?) a 4" air space, 2x4 2 sheets 5/8? Are metal studs better? Or one metal one wood with the wood and 2 sheets of 5/8 on the drum room side? I see you don't recomend RC for low freq just pure mass. If I don't care about bleed into the house can I put up RC and 2 sheets of 5/8 on that wall? It's a kitchen the bedrooms and living areas are on the other side of the house.
The window is going to be smaller and no sliding glass door between the control room and vocal booth.
ESS? Looking into it. Slat absorbers and hinged absorbers for the drum room that will help solve some issues in there
Again this board is incredible! Although I thought I was getting a slight grasp of the concepts your input reveals only years and years of experience fill the gap. I'll post a drawing in a bit.
Thanks,
Dave
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dtess
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:47 am
- Location: Denver, CO
5.1 Postproduction in Garage
Steve,
Worked up three versions, which one will work best? With your approval all of the interior walls will end up being one these details. Along the north wall where the entrance to the house is another leaf will be built spaced the “4 away from the current wall. Is the heavier leaf the way to go here and same with the garage side? Since the south wall is in the control room and bathroom do I need another leaf here or will the 2 layers of 5/8’s on RC be enough?
Confusion… It seems that the walls eventually interface with ceiling joist. Even though the rock doesn’t touch the joist if the 3 layers of rock are hung on a 2x4, which is then attached to the ceiling joist, won’t this transmit the energy and negate the use? The ceiling is the weak link. What STC are two layers of 5/8 with a foot of cellulose? What STC is 5/8 screwed to the original joist then another 2x4 joist with RC and 2 more sheets of 5/8 (yikes that seems heavy)? If the walls out perform the ceiling is it useful?
Started looking at designs for absorbers and bass traps. Planning on using ceiling and corners for bass traps. The corner of the control room behind the mix position seems like a natural place for a broadband absorber/bass trap? Slat absorber to the left and right of the mix position? Would "3 fiberglass panels hung over the slat absorber work for surround? Tuned slat absorber?
Thanks,
Dave
Worked up three versions, which one will work best? With your approval all of the interior walls will end up being one these details. Along the north wall where the entrance to the house is another leaf will be built spaced the “4 away from the current wall. Is the heavier leaf the way to go here and same with the garage side? Since the south wall is in the control room and bathroom do I need another leaf here or will the 2 layers of 5/8’s on RC be enough?
Confusion… It seems that the walls eventually interface with ceiling joist. Even though the rock doesn’t touch the joist if the 3 layers of rock are hung on a 2x4, which is then attached to the ceiling joist, won’t this transmit the energy and negate the use? The ceiling is the weak link. What STC are two layers of 5/8 with a foot of cellulose? What STC is 5/8 screwed to the original joist then another 2x4 joist with RC and 2 more sheets of 5/8 (yikes that seems heavy)? If the walls out perform the ceiling is it useful?
Started looking at designs for absorbers and bass traps. Planning on using ceiling and corners for bass traps. The corner of the control room behind the mix position seems like a natural place for a broadband absorber/bass trap? Slat absorber to the left and right of the mix position? Would "3 fiberglass panels hung over the slat absorber work for surround? Tuned slat absorber?
Thanks,
Dave
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giles117
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:42 am
- Location: Henderson County
- Contact:
Dtess, your 3rd drawing is the correct way to go. However I would make one change. I would use Particle board or MDF instead of OSB on the floor.
2 Sheets particle board with something else sandwiched between. Like drywall or some rubber like GAF Tri-Ply TP-4 in between the two boad layers. Either Material is fine, just depends on your budget.
Realize sandwiching the material is not necessary just another medium change (additional dampening). I prefer it in the Live room as it improved the sound I was getting from my Kick Drum.
Bryan Giles
2 Sheets particle board with something else sandwiched between. Like drywall or some rubber like GAF Tri-Ply TP-4 in between the two boad layers. Either Material is fine, just depends on your budget.
Realize sandwiching the material is not necessary just another medium change (additional dampening). I prefer it in the Live room as it improved the sound I was getting from my Kick Drum.
Bryan Giles
-
cfuehrer
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:57 pm
- Location: Rochester, NY
- Contact:
-
giles117
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:42 am
- Location: Henderson County
- Contact:
Density of the material. OSB is different. I prefer and have been recommended particle board for the past 6 years. who knows, maybe my sources were mistaken, maybe it doesn't matter. I just stick to what I have found works well.
OSB might work just fine. I can't speak on it because i have never used it. That is why I said "I would use"
Unless someone gives me convincing evidence of the similarity between the products, I will stay with what works best for me. This is the 4th floor I have floated and I have learned from the mistakes I made hence my reason for stating what I have stated.
(Not irritated just being frank Carl.)
While typing this post I did tons of research and I have been unable to find any information regarding the Density of the flooring material. If someone can find it let me know but for now I will keep using Particle board.
Dtess mentioned 1-1/8" OSB. In looking at his design he is showing one layer. But that is not recommened. 2 flooring layers is recommended.
P.board is rated at 45lbs / cubic foot
Steve may have information I have not read so I will leave that open for argument. Not too mention Particle board costs $8.00 a sheet here in Michigan.
Bryan Giles
OSB might work just fine. I can't speak on it because i have never used it. That is why I said "I would use"
Unless someone gives me convincing evidence of the similarity between the products, I will stay with what works best for me. This is the 4th floor I have floated and I have learned from the mistakes I made hence my reason for stating what I have stated.
(Not irritated just being frank Carl.)
While typing this post I did tons of research and I have been unable to find any information regarding the Density of the flooring material. If someone can find it let me know but for now I will keep using Particle board.
Dtess mentioned 1-1/8" OSB. In looking at his design he is showing one layer. But that is not recommened. 2 flooring layers is recommended.
P.board is rated at 45lbs / cubic foot
Steve may have information I have not read so I will leave that open for argument. Not too mention Particle board costs $8.00 a sheet here in Michigan.
Bryan Giles