Hi Steve & John,
We have started to build our vocal / drum booth and have revisited the link about multiboard partitions and the benefits to sound attenuation by not using screws. We are still confused about how we should attach our second and third layer boards to our wall and what products we should use.
At the moment we have
2x4" wood stud > resilient bar (attached with 1-1/4" type S bugle head) > 16mm gyspum (attached to resilient bar with 1-1/8" type S bugle head) > 12mm MDF (attached to 16mm gypsum with ??) > 12mm gypsum (attached with to 12mm MDF with ??)
Please could you let us know what products are recommended to attach the final layers. We have read through the USG manual and are still unsure so any advice would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Porl and Patrick.
Gluing layers ??
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knightfly
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Porl, I'm hoping that part of your description was a mis-type - Both in the USG manual and in my various posts on construction, I tried to make it clear that fastening ANYTHING to WOOD studs, requires Type W, as in Wood, screws. If you've already used Type S (as in Steel) screws, did you notice any tendency for them not to grip well? If not, you may be OK. Still, it makes me nervous.
As far as the screws for the rest of the layers (ONLY on the side with the Resilient bar) you should just use longer Type S screws for each layer, offset so they don't collide. Putting a strip of wide masking tape on the floor and making notes/marks will help keep track - if there's anything to fasten tape to at top of wall, do it there also - otherwise, a plumb bob will help keep things in line. When screwing the layer of MDF, if the screws don't sink flush you may need to use a countersink first, and make dimples where the screws will go. Make these just deep enough to cause the screws to sit flush.
For the OTHER side of the frame, you'll be fastening the first layer directly onto the wood studs using Type W, not S, screws - subsequent layers will need the special Laminating Screws USG calls Type G (for Gypsum) - I couldn't find those anywhere in my area yet, so that may be a problem. The reason this needs to be done, is that you do NOT want subsequent layers screwed directly to the studs, because the studs are not flexible enough to absorb the sound that travels along the screws. For this reason, you want to run 2-3" wide stripes of joint compound parallel to, and about 2-3" away from, the studs - then place the panel on spacers (same as all wall construction) so as to leave a gap between floor and wallboard of about 3-4mm - fasten the second panel to the first using the Type G screws in line with the stripe of joint compound, so that each panel has a line of glue and screws offset slightly from studs, repeated near each stud.
What this does, is to fasten the panel without passing sound directly into the studs. The glue and screws give strength, and even though the Laminating (Type G) screws pass thru the panel they do NOT contact the stud. What sound gets thru the screws is absorbed by the insulation/air space.
A third layer should be done the same way as the second, but with screws offset vertically ONLY, to avoid collisions between fasteners.
Once the all panels for a particular layer are fastened, pull the spacers out from under them and caulk thoroughly before doing the next layer. Never put two layers up with seams coincident - offsetting by one stud spacing, both horizontal and vertical, is good.
Here's sort of a synopsis I eventually will expand on, that covers a lot of points - The first #5 re-visits part of what I wrote above -
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
I still need to find some time to research this scarcity of Type G screws - I hope you have better luck than I have so far. Try asking for them by the name Laminating screws, or Drywall Laminating screws - If you can find a local Drywall contractor they may be able to help. Look on page 40 of the USG Construction manual for definitions.
Page 118-119 of the USG manual cover part of strip laminating for sound control. You do NOT want to fully laminate layers, the difference in Resonant frequency of each layer improves on sound isolation so each layer needs to be (somewhat) free to vibrate on its own. That's why the strip lamination on wall leaves that attach directly to wood studs.
Hope that helped... Steve
As far as the screws for the rest of the layers (ONLY on the side with the Resilient bar) you should just use longer Type S screws for each layer, offset so they don't collide. Putting a strip of wide masking tape on the floor and making notes/marks will help keep track - if there's anything to fasten tape to at top of wall, do it there also - otherwise, a plumb bob will help keep things in line. When screwing the layer of MDF, if the screws don't sink flush you may need to use a countersink first, and make dimples where the screws will go. Make these just deep enough to cause the screws to sit flush.
For the OTHER side of the frame, you'll be fastening the first layer directly onto the wood studs using Type W, not S, screws - subsequent layers will need the special Laminating Screws USG calls Type G (for Gypsum) - I couldn't find those anywhere in my area yet, so that may be a problem. The reason this needs to be done, is that you do NOT want subsequent layers screwed directly to the studs, because the studs are not flexible enough to absorb the sound that travels along the screws. For this reason, you want to run 2-3" wide stripes of joint compound parallel to, and about 2-3" away from, the studs - then place the panel on spacers (same as all wall construction) so as to leave a gap between floor and wallboard of about 3-4mm - fasten the second panel to the first using the Type G screws in line with the stripe of joint compound, so that each panel has a line of glue and screws offset slightly from studs, repeated near each stud.
What this does, is to fasten the panel without passing sound directly into the studs. The glue and screws give strength, and even though the Laminating (Type G) screws pass thru the panel they do NOT contact the stud. What sound gets thru the screws is absorbed by the insulation/air space.
A third layer should be done the same way as the second, but with screws offset vertically ONLY, to avoid collisions between fasteners.
Once the all panels for a particular layer are fastened, pull the spacers out from under them and caulk thoroughly before doing the next layer. Never put two layers up with seams coincident - offsetting by one stud spacing, both horizontal and vertical, is good.
Here's sort of a synopsis I eventually will expand on, that covers a lot of points - The first #5 re-visits part of what I wrote above -
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
I still need to find some time to research this scarcity of Type G screws - I hope you have better luck than I have so far. Try asking for them by the name Laminating screws, or Drywall Laminating screws - If you can find a local Drywall contractor they may be able to help. Look on page 40 of the USG Construction manual for definitions.
Page 118-119 of the USG manual cover part of strip laminating for sound control. You do NOT want to fully laminate layers, the difference in Resonant frequency of each layer improves on sound isolation so each layer needs to be (somewhat) free to vibrate on its own. That's why the strip lamination on wall leaves that attach directly to wood studs.
Hope that helped... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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porl
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:15 pm
- Location: london
cont
Hi Steve,
Spent the last couple of days doing the rounds for laminating drywall screws to no avail - all our drywall suppliers are foxed on this one. Can we use the regular type S screws as alternatives or are we looking at changing the construction ?
good link BTW caught some stuff we overlooked regards stud spacing loud bass side.
Thanks,
Porl.
PS. yep, it was a typo about the RC to wood screws no damage done..
Spent the last couple of days doing the rounds for laminating drywall screws to no avail - all our drywall suppliers are foxed on this one. Can we use the regular type S screws as alternatives or are we looking at changing the construction ?
good link BTW caught some stuff we overlooked regards stud spacing loud bass side.
Thanks,
Porl.
PS. yep, it was a typo about the RC to wood screws no damage done..
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eric
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 1:54 pm
- Location: Ellensburg,Wa
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Eric, my MAN... Got a link you could post (preferably here AND in the Building Products area)? That's the first REAL clue to where these mythological beasts could be found. Post for the caulk too if you can, that's a pretty good price.
Porl, glad that was a typo - other than the chasing down of the wily Laminus Maximus beast, are you set on the how and what for your project so far? If not, you got the #... Steve
Porl, glad that was a typo - other than the chasing down of the wily Laminus Maximus beast, are you set on the how and what for your project so far? If not, you got the #... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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porl
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:15 pm
- Location: london
cont
Thanks guys,
We are about to buy all our materials - our doors are being delivered today. There is still time for small changes with how we can board things (anything else would be a hassle however if it's necessary...)
It seems that Laminus Maximus has not been seen in our fair isle since the days of King Arthur and because of the delay it would cause, shipping from the US isn't an option at our stage. Thanks Eric for the suggestions (your caulk prices over here are the equivalent in UK pounds too..)
Soo.. any alternatives, guys?
Porl.
We are about to buy all our materials - our doors are being delivered today. There is still time for small changes with how we can board things (anything else would be a hassle however if it's necessary...)
It seems that Laminus Maximus has not been seen in our fair isle since the days of King Arthur and because of the delay it would cause, shipping from the US isn't an option at our stage. Thanks Eric for the suggestions (your caulk prices over here are the equivalent in UK pounds too..)
Soo.. any alternatives, guys?
Porl.
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eric
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 1:54 pm
- Location: Ellensburg,Wa
The manufacturers site is www.grabberman.com. They sell online however, I would establish a relationship with the local lumberyared if you wany good pricing. Generally speaking if you open an acount with them they give you better pricing.
Eric
Eric
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Go Porl, you da MAN - Now, if we could just get you to post whatever info you have on these at the Building Materials forum (addresses, URL's, prices, whatever you have) then the next Brits maybe won't have to try so hard. Thanks in advance... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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porl
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:15 pm
- Location: london