Monster Cable , Monster Price?

rocktavian · Post by **rocktavian** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:01 am

This is a question that is really just eating me up. It is a little off base for recording studio itself but a recording only sounds as good as the quality going in right?

i have heard various thoughts and wanted to hear from the guys who do it for real.

They have all of these high dollar instrument, and microphone cables from various manufacturers(monster, lava , mogami, etc...). Is one better than the other? is there any point and even buying these things? Do they really make a difference in the sound or do they just make you think they do because you blew so much money on them?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:31 am

For the most part, Monster and the like are a good way to separate you from cash better used on better pre's, acoustic treatment, etc - this is not to say that wiring doesn't make a difference, but it's more involved than just calling something good or bad.

If you are connecting low impedance balanced gear, certain aspects of cable performance are less important than if you're connecting high impedance NON-balanced gear; cable capacitance, for example. A high impedance transmission line (cable from one high Z unit to another) typically has about 10 Kohms input impedance, so a type of cable that has relatively high capacitance will form a FILTER from the R factor of the gear and the C factor of the cable - low capacitance cable might have 15-20 picofarads per foot capacitance, so a 20 foot run would have maybe 400 picofarads total capacitance; cheaper cables can have around 60-80 picofarads per foot, or 4 TIMES as much capacitance.

This isn't a big deal with a LOW Z connection, because there isn't enough resistance in the connection to cause much filtering of high frequencies when that low resistance is combined with a few hundred picofarads; But with a HIGH impedance connection, suddenly you will find yourself turning up the treble to compensate for the loss. When you do that, you also turn up any noise/hiss in the system. If you do that for several inputs to a mixer, all of a sudden you've got a MUCH noisier final mix. Not good.

One of the best things you can do for yourself (if you don't already know how) is learn to solder, and start making your own cables - you can buy decent quality cable and name brand connectors (Switchcraft or Neutrik) and build cables that will outperform and outlast stuff like Monster, for less money. And, when/if they fail you will know how to fix them, usually for FREE since the materials are already there.

So far, the only ready-made unbalanced cables I've found that use low capacitance cable are the 400 series from Tascam - their 700 series are low cap, but not as durable a cable or connectors.

For balanced wiring, one way to go is to use AES spec'd digital cable - since it's designed for digital, the capacitance is very low (between 10-15 pf/foot typically) and you can also make your unbalanced cables from it by using slightly different connection schemes.

For high noise areas and best hum rejection, one of the "star quad" types properly wired can help lower noise - it's kind of a "balanced balanced" cable when wired according to directions.

For a good primer on interconnections, try searching this forum for "rane", I've posted a link not too long ago... Steve

rocktavian · Post by **rocktavian** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:04 am

I think i understood most of that. I also understand the concept of larger wire for speakers and the like.

my question is really pertaining to unbalanced guitar or bass instrument cable and balanced microphone cable? I have made a many of cables but i have never even touched a Monster Cable. Just curious if there would be any difference in sound and if so how much between a $5 generic cable and $50 Monster cable or Equivalent.

I will surely build the cables if its worth the trouble.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:08 pm

I bought one of their"jazz" cables 'bout a year ago just to see what it was like; used it for guitar, only diff I could tell between that and one of my own was the $60 missing from my wallet. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't better... Steve

tmix · Post by **tmix** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:30 pm

Rocktavian.
I have tried the different cables out.
In all honesty, I noticed some marked differences in only the unbalanced guitar cables.(Basically parroting what Knightfly said) The Mic cables may have some better build quality on the more expensive cables, but you can buy 3 or 4 Rapco Brand for the price of one Monster.If you are careful with handling your cables a less expensive brand works.

rocktavian · Post by **rocktavian** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:38 pm

kinda what i figured. I will have to make some guitar cables pretty soon anyway. mine are getting old. I got a friend in the Industrial electronics sales sector. maybe he could get me a deal on some quality cable. Truthfully i believe cable life is mostly dependent upon flexibility and quality of soldering.

At least now i know that i can save my monster money for monster studio project.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:45 am

Right; just generally, for cables that won't be disturbed constantly you get quieter results with full foil shield - for cables that will be moved/flexed, etc, a braided sheild holds up better but with a slight loss of shielding (typically 85% as opposed to 100% for foil) - also, the braided stuff can be a real bitch to work with (as can rubber/neoprene jackets)

One of the complaints I see most about Monster (other than price) is lack of build quality - quite a few solder joints fail apparently. So your comments are born out by others' experiences.

Mastering your soldering techniques will be a large part of success for sure... Steve

ninjakyle · Post by **ninjakyle** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:18 pm

any suggestions on where to buy the connections and the wire?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:13 am

http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct. ... &sort=prod

(top two items; np2c is unbalanced, for guitar cords; np3c is stereo or balanced, TRS connector.

One kind of cable

For fixed studio wiring, you can use AES/EBU digital cable for nearly everything; for high impedance wiring especially, the ultra-low capacitance will keep signals from losing high frequency on longer runs... Steve

AVare · Post by **AVare** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:35 am

Knightfly wrote:for high impedance wiring especially, the ultra-low capacitance will keep signals from losing high frequency on longer runs

I never even thought about using AES/EBU cable hor impedance circuits. The I read the quoted phrase, it made perfect sense!

Gratefully impressed:
Andre

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:08 pm

I learned that about 15 years ago by accident; the band I was in was asked to play a benefit (one of those "battle of the bands" things) and we had no snake long enough for outdoor gigs; but I had scored some "scrap" cable from work, 27-pair Belden "datalene" - I built a snake from 120 feet of it, we set up the day of the gig and I normalled the board with all the Hi EQ's at +5, thinking that the long run would attenuate the top end; at sound check, I had to start over with the board normalled at -2 in order to keep the treble from "taking our heads off" -

Later, I researched the datalene series of cable, found that capacitance was at 10 pf per foot; typical balanced audio cable runs anywhere from 30 to 80 pf per foot, with the really good stuff coming in at around 20. Been a fan of low cap cable ever since... Steve

telefontel · Post by **telefontel** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:00 am

okay

i had pretty much the same question as this thread and have understood what you are saying.

just wanted to clarify
the mogami 2549 is pretty much an all around cable which can me used for balanced applications and worked with to make unbalanced also?

also

what solder is the best to use?

im currently doing my first full studio with patchbays and the whole shebang and wanted to figure out how to deal with the seemingly constant need for cables, so getting the hang of making them myself will be a great accomplishment.

thanks for your knowledge!

charlie

Post by **Aaronw** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:15 am

what solder is the best to use?

Varies on your application. For most things, lead solder. But for cables, you can also use silver solder (2-4%), and word has it, Europe is no longer going to have lead solder in the next year or two, but will replace with tin solder. (a real bummer...need to have a real hot iron).

So I would suggest either the lead or silver. Silver, you also have to have a hotter iron, and can be a pain in the butt to work with.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:11 am

If you use lead solder, I VASTLY prefer the "eutectic" kind - this means that all the elements in the solder flow at the same temp, which is slightly lower than "normal" solder - typical solders are 60/40, which means 60% tin and 40% lead. The hyper-eutectic is 63 % tin.

IF it says "SN63" on the label, it's the good stuff.

Main advantage I've found is that the solder flows sooner and more evenly so you do less damage to wire insulation and any cheesy terminals you may encounter.

A temperature-controlled tip soldering station helps too - too hot, and the tip destroys itself fairly soon, not to mention over-heating your components in the process. For most cable work, I use a 700 degree tip and work just slow enough to get good flow. Do NOT disturb the joint from the time solder flows around the wire/terminal until it's cooled and changed phase - watch for a VERY slight "dulling" of the solder surface, or if you miss it just wait 3-5 seconds for normal mass connections.

All the books tell you to heat the JOINT, and THEN apply solder to the joint - I've done soldering for 40 years or so and find that you do less damage and still get good connections if you first apply a small amount of solder to the IRON, then when you touch the iron to the joint the solder gives better heat coupling to the joint and it heats FASTER.

Once that happens, you apply solder to the joint (NOT the iron) as normal.

If you have a choice, I do NOT recommend silver solder for delicate work - as Aaron said, it takes higher temps (more chance of damage)

HTH... Steve

Pennywizz6 · Post by **Pennywizz6** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:56 am

I bought some cheap generic cable from ebay, like 30$ for a hundred or so feet of xlr cable with plugs. Due to the price I figured i was gunna get some pretty crappy wire, boy I was wrong, it was just bad... it was great! I compared it to a less generic american co cable, it was light and day in wire quality. The Ebay cables copper was a clean, goldlike luster that was abundent and didnt appear to be shorted where the american co cable's copper was almost rusty, dull. I guess I cant really see the difference between the two in audio quality. I guess what im saying is that price isnt a good factor in quality!

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