FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

[sharward]

Well, I'm glued to Dan's "an isolated slab island instead of floating?" thread on studiotips.com, and what I first interpreted as encouraging news, I now find myself again seriously contemplating the alleged flaws of my latest approach.



However, for the first time, I'm also seriously contemplating doing it anyway because all of this analyzing is so damned paralyzing.

But that may be my emotions talking right now.

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

So Keith what are you thinkin now?

Is your main concern that floating may be difficult to get past the inspectors without an expensive engineering plan? And you liked not floating because you didn't have to worry about this ...

Floating must be done for industrial purposes in Sacramento. I wonder if you can use an accepted method that is used in industry that inspectors will understand and approve ...

you still have the door/landing/step probelm to deal with. maybe when you replace your slab you can excavate a bit so your floated floor is even with your existing slab. then you don't have a step up. if you float 4" concrete on 2" elastomer then you are looking at an extra 6 inches excavation i guess.

d

[sharward]

Yeah, you pretty much mirrored my thinking on all my points there. I've sometimes envisioned a "hole in the ground" with a floated pad that meets the rest of the slab flush at the surface of both -- kind of like those scales that vehicles drive on to get weighed.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that the "industrial" methods would require "industrial" drawings by "industrial" engineers who get paid "industrial" dollars.

I'm getting really sick of this.

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

buck up little buckaroo!

[cadesignr]

Hey guys, have either of you actually had a complaint? What if your neighbors actually didn't hear it, or didn't hear it loud enough to bother them.: Maybe you ought to ask them where they hear it when you play? Maybe all this is for nothin!!:shock: (just kiddin!!)
fitZ

[sharward]

I know you're just kinddin' around, fitZ, but I'll answer anyway, just in case everyone's forgotten.

None of my neighbors have ever complained about my drums. But that is likely due to the fact that I have lived in the house for a year and I have not played them since moving in!

And remember my city's "objective" noise ordinances which call for music being no louder than 55 dbA from 7 AM to 10 PM, and 50 dbA from 10 PM to 7 AM. Also, recall that my city's "subjective" noise ordinances incorporates touchy-feely language, such as "it is unlawful for any person to make or continue or cause to be made or continued any loud, unnecessary or unusual noise which disturbs the peace and quiet of any neighborhood or which causes discomfort or annoyance to any reasonable person of normal sensitiveness residing in the area."

And before anyone asks (again), no, making noise higher than is allowed by law but lower than is allowed by accommodating neighbors is not an option.

In other words, my iso has to be good. Plus, I rather like my neighbors and I'd rather like them continuing to like me.

Also, this article in yesterday's Sacramento Bee states that my city is overhauling its code enforcement division:

• . . . city staff members will lobby for 14 more code-enforcement staff members. The proposed increase will include four inspectors for dangerous building and illegal home additions, a problem that Fernandez* said is prevalent across the city.
  
  "People are doing a mountain of work without permits," Fernandez said.
  
  *area director for the central and eastern parts of the city and designated director of the new Code Enforcement Department

So, like I've said before, I've got to fly straight.

[sharward]

Dan came over yesterday to see my space and talk with me about my needs. His conclusion:

• You need to do it the Woodlock way.

Gee, thanks Dan!

(In all seriousness, I need straight talk, and I thank you for that. )

On one hand, I think that I might get away with not going to such extremes. On the other had, the confidence of my "think" rises and falls depending on what I read and who's writing. And Dan is right that I arguably seem to have the greatest iso demands of just about everyone here!

Paul said it best:

As I've just said in the OTHER floating floor thread, you might be better making your decision based on psychology.

IOW Ask yourself how you'll feel if your solution isn't as good as you'd expected, and there was room for improvement in the first place. (Source)

So, after yet more hours of reading and study, mostly on the horribly-architected-yet-full-of-great-information Mason Industries sites, I think I have come up with a plan that I may not pursue, but that I will research from a cost and building department compliance perspective.

The plan for the floor consists of:

• Moving way more earth than I ever dreamed of
  
  Using way more concrete than I ever dreamed of
  
  Using about 15 Mason Industries' FSN Neoprene Concrete Floating Slab Isolators, Model 1336 and/or Model 1337, 4 to 4½ feet o.c., then jacking up the floating concrete slab to create a 3" air gap between slabs
  
  Using a number of Mason Industries' Seismic Snubbers, Model SFFS -- Look! Certified by State of California!

Picture's worth a thousand words...

• 
  ENLARGE THIS IMAGE

I have no clue how much these Mason doohickies cost, but I hope to find out this week. (I expect they're very expensive -- those things are friggin' cast iron! ) In the meantime, please comment.

Don't let the colorful design fool you into thinking that I know what I'm doing here! I'm more frightened than ever! Rod, I'm desperate for some hand-holding here!

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

hey, man ... sorry if i bummed you out saying you need to go "the full woodlock."

it's just that, when Rod says a lesser solution is fine for 90% of people, I just don't think you are in that 90% ... you repeatedly and strenuously insist that you need to follow the noise ordinance to the letter ... that won't be easy to do with any easy solution.

but frankly, i don't know what i'm talking about. seriously. maybe a cut slab will be enough to keep up with your walls. that's the bottom line isn't it.

[sharward]

...unless I reaise the ante on my walls, which if I'm going to go all out on the floor, I may as well!

That is, if I have any freakin' money left!

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

i should clarify.

you float to avoid flanking. nobody is worried about disturbing the earthworms or morlocks or whatever is in the ground.

so, whatever floor solution you come up with has to FLANK to your wall's exterior leaf (or the rest of the house) to a lesser extent (at least a few db) than your walls transmit on their own.

paying attention to lower frequencies the most. but not ignoring the mids either.

something Rod said had me thinking, there may be a HUGE difference between a slab tested as a partition between two airspaces and a slab against the ground.

a slab partition can bend freely, while a slab on the ground less so.

so the bending waves of the slab, which cause the coincidence effect, should be damped by the ground.

so flanking of the slab should be less than the TL as tested in the lab (maybe this was the 4db eric mentioned here

should reread that thread again, see if it makes any more sense to me this week

by the way, am reading a book that has relevance to what you and i and others are going through, about decision-making, called "Blink."

very relevant, i'm half way through it and you should read it. its a bestseller.

basically it's about how decisions made with the gut can be better than decisions made with lots of information, and how too much information can actually be detrimental to good decision making.

very intersesting huh

dan

[cadesignr]

basically it's about how decisions made with the gut can be better than decisions made with lots of information, and how too much information can actually be detrimental to good decision making.

So, does that mean if you didn't know what you know now, a wood floating floor would have satisfied your needs? (just kidding) Sometimes I wonder about logic like this. Who knows. But in this instance, I don't think there is any such thing as "knowing too much". Otherwise, hindsight becomes awfully painfull. As well as expensive.
fitZ

[Sword9]

well boys, the drawings are being made for this place in KY I'm "designing" (a term used loosely) for my friend. We're going to use the 1 slab per room option and 3 layers of drywall on each wall frame for both leaves. Hopefully it'll be finished by the winter.

It'll probably be too late to help with these particular threads, but hopefully I'll be able to get some data to see if it works. With the given budget, this is the only option I've been able to arrive at that meets my wall/ceiling TL.

Once construction begins I'm hoping to do a lengthy and detailed Woodlockian "build in progress" thread with pics and all so that maybe I can help other folks envision and plan.

I know it's months off, but I'm wondering how I test the soundproofworthiness of my floor alone. pzm on the floor in one room and big rubber sledge hammer hitting the floor in the other?

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

FitZ

yeah, i knew that would sound suspicious and nonsensical to people.

but, i guess that's why it is worth writing a book about ... if i could explain it here, there would be no need to have a whole book about it

i think the answer for me is, learn ALL you can, digest, and then go with your gut. you will always be faced with contradictory evidence and theories, so your own guts must be the final decision.

by the way i actually think a wood floating floor can work and i may still do that

Dan

[cadesignr]

Hello Dan. Hey, I hope you don't think I am being negative with my comments. Without haveing something completely positive to add, comic relief is my only avenue to spice the thread with. As to the wood floor thing, actually what I was referring to is a floated framing structures with a foot of airgap. Possibly filled with sand, or all the OTHER varieties that have been mentioned in these discussions. I think those are pretty much dead now. The one you linked to seems the only viable wood floor as it uses the mass of the slab as the TL mechanism. I think. Hahahaha!

BTW, hope ya don't get a tummy ache instead of a headache(get it? gut feeling...err.........nevermind.
fitZ

[sharward]

. . . so the bending waves of the slab, which cause the coincidence effect, should be damped by the ground.

so flanking of the slab should be less than the TL as tested in the lab (maybe this was the 4db eric mentioned here

should reread that thread again, see if it makes any more sense to me this week . . .

Great stuff, Dan. Yes, I shall not make any final decisions until you can make more sense of that.

. . . a book that has relevance to what you and i and others are going through, about decision-making, called "Blink." . . . about how decisions made with the gut can be better than decisions made with lots of information, and how too much information can actually be detrimental to good decision making.

I think I may have heard of that one (or one similar) -- how they studied firefighter captains/chiefs who make quick decisions on scene based on limited information and very quickly weighing probable outcomes of the options.

I also remember a presentation a few years back about how people make decisions on an emotional level before they have the data, then make a case to support the decision they already subconsciously made.

Hmmm. I wonder what decision I've already made on an emotional level...

Anyway, great insights here, as usual -- everyone, keep it coming!