Creaky Old CR Floor... Tear it Out... Then What?

[Jax]

The original tenants who built the studio space I've been leasing for the last four years built a CR floor with wood over metal channels for cable feeds (poorly installed and useless). The problem is, the floor has become increasingly squeaky and uneven over time. When anyone walks over it, the squeals and odd "clonks" harken back to an old pirate ship on its last days at sea... not what you want in a professional atmosphere or any others I can think of.

I'm eventually going to tear the floor out, but I'm wondering if sound leakage from the live room will increase, decrease or stay about the same. The original floor is solid concrete, although I don't know how thick it is. The building itself is at ground level, with no structure above the studio.

If left as is, even with a pounding drummer a couple of feet from the CR window, the isolation is far more than good enough to determine the effect of mic positions. Speech cannot be heard without talkback, etc. I don't want to lose that level of isolation.

Here are the room dimensions:

CR - 15x11x8.
Live Room - 23x18x8'7.5"

The squawking CR floor is 6" higher than the original floor.

How do I determine whether or not a new floated floor is appropriate for the CR? Am I ok with the original concrete floor?

Thanks!

- Jackson

[knightfly]

Is the original CR floor actually FLOATED, or just set up on metal rails? Are we talking about a "Computer Floor" here, or something else?

IF your CR floor is actually floated, I would consider keeping it floated; otherwise, you could lose isolation between the CR and OTHER areas, even if it's still OK between CR and Live room.

Are all the floors currently at the same elevation? If so, it's not much different to FLOAT a floor than to just build it higher; without doing that, you may start getting HVAC noise through walls>floor>console, or OTHER flanking - not sure it's worth the chance... Steve

[Jax]

Thanks for the reply, Steve! Haven't seen you since the giant thread on treating a CR with foam, which was right before minitraps came out. I learned alot about acoustics from that thread. I ended up getting 8 minitraps and my CR sounds much better now. Soon to add mondotraps to the front wall corners for some serious LF health. Anyway, back to the topic.

Is the original CR floor actually FLOATED, or just set up on metal rails? Are we talking about a "Computer Floor" here, or something else?

I'm not sure how the floor is actually constructed over the original floor. When I open up a section, I'll know, but it might be awhile before I do. Due to other jerry-rigged areas of the studio I've found over time, I suspect it isn't technically "floated." I expect to find spaced wood studs touching the original floor, with cutouts in the middle for the metal channels. I know that the walking surface is 1/2" plywood from when I installed carpet tiles over it.

IF your CR floor is actually floated, I would consider keeping it floated; otherwise, you could lose isolation between the CR and OTHER areas, even if it's still OK between CR and Live room.

Hmm.. well, the other areas are only marginally isolated from the live and CR, in spite of the double walls and double doors. I don't think the walls were isolated from the ground, and if they staggered the studs (etc), it wasn't too effective. There's a long-ish hallway and a small entrance area around the corner at the end of the hall.

Are all the floors currently at the same elevation? If so, it's not much different to FLOAT a floor than to just build it higher; without doing that, you may start getting HVAC noise through walls>floor>console, or OTHER flanking - not sure it's worth the chance... Steve

The original, concrete floor is at the same elevation for the whole studio. The floor that was built over the concrete in the CR is actually 7.5" higher (I remeasured). I guess they wanted to make the distance from floor to ceiling an even 8' in the CR.

In any event, the floor they installed is going to be ripped out. Given that you say the level of isolation could decrease in the hall and entrance, I'll replace the creaky old floor with something at least adequate. Time to do some research on this site and find a suitable replacement!

p.s. - (sorry, my imagination is at work here, getting excited at the prospect of doing things RIGHT!.. or at least better)
Is there any reason I couldn't just setup a new floor on isolation pucks and leave enough space underneath to pull cables through?

Another question comes to mind, now that I know where I'll be going with this: Can I expect a reasonable improvement in isolation between the live and CR if the new floor is installed with a 2-3" gap between it and the walls? The gap would double as a place to hide my cable runs...

[Jax]

So... where'd Steve go?

[sharward]

So... where'd Steve go?

He answers in order received, and his work schedule can be very demanding.

From the "Before You Post" Post:

Please be patient. Questions are answered in the order received, so "bumping" your post may actually delay a reply. It may take up to a week or longer for a response (this will rarely be the case), but you won't be forgotten. If you care to ask an additional question or provide more information before you receive a response, we recommend editing your post instead of bumping, as that will allow you to retain your position in the queue.

[knightfly]

Is there any reason I couldn't just setup a new floor on isolation pucks and leave enough space underneath to pull cables through?

Yes, but the more low frequency isolation you want the more mass and height you'll need - for full frequency isolation it takes something along the lines of 4" concrete over 6" frame on EPDM or similar pucks.

Can I expect a reasonable improvement in isolation between the live and CR if the new floor is installed with a 2-3" gap between it and the walls? The gap would double as a place to hide my cable runs...

That would depend on how the existing walls and floor interface; I'm not getting a picture of how that's done just yet, probably need a sketch of how you intend the walls and floors to be connected (or not connected) -

When trying to describe this sort of construction, it's almost ALWAYS easier with a drawing of some sort... Steve

[Jax]

I'd supply drawings, but I don't have a program to render them with.

Can anyone suggest a cheap (or free), simple program?

I won't be able to answer the questions posted until I take out the floor and see what was done. Hope this doesn't turn into some construction nightmare...

[knightfly]

You on a PC or Mac?

[rod gervais]

The original, concrete floor is at the same elevation for the whole studio. The floor that was built over the concrete in the CR is actually 7.5" higher (I remeasured). I guess they wanted to make the distance from floor to ceiling an even 8' in the CR.

Jax,

Probably not - more likely they did this so they had a wide open space below the floor for low-voltage runs to and from the board.

Keeps those cables nicely isolated from the majority of the line voltage runs.

In any event, the floor they installed is going to be ripped out. Given that you say the level of isolation could decrease in the hall and entrance, I'll replace the creaky old floor with something at least adequate. Time to do some research on this site and find a suitable replacement!

Perhaps there is another solution - one which would not require the replacement of the entire system - this too would depend on the exact construction of the floor/wall assembly though (we still need more information).

If the floor is what I believe it may be (as described above) then it probably wasn't constructed with isolation in mind at all........ and if that is the case - it might be as easy as filling this with sand (to stop the floor movement) and moving on from there.

Part of that (of course) would depend on whether or not the cables below the floor were run within conduits or not.

Open it up and let us know exactly how the floor/wall construction goes together........... if you can't do drawings - some clear pictures would be worth a thousand words........

p.s. - (sorry, my imagination is at work here, getting excited at the prospect of doing things RIGHT!.. or at least better) Is there any reason I couldn't just setup a new floor on isolation pucks and leave enough space underneath to pull cables through?

You have already said that isolation is more than adequate between live and control rooms - all you really need to do is make the squeaks go away - if you should decide to replace the floor - the exact same construction would work fine with you just being careful to make certain the squeaks wouldn't exist.

Another question comes to mind, now that I know where I'll be going with this: Can I expect a reasonable improvement in isolation between the live and CR if the new floor is installed with a 2-3" gap between it and the walls? The gap would double as a place to hide my cable runs...

My guess (just a blind guess based on what you have said so far) would be "no".

There is so much more to this than just floating floors - and I would believe based on past experiences - that flanking noise winds up being the determining factor in all of this in your case,

Seeing as the rooms are on a common slab - you shouldn't expect any big increase in isolation.

It sounds as if the contractors did a pretty good job in your case - whatever limiting factors exist are not going to change. By this I mean the slab connection - wall to wall coupling - wall/ceiling coupling - mechanical coupling, etc., etc.

Rod

[Jax]

You on a PC o
r Mac?

PC (XP)

[Jax]

Perhaps there is another solution - one which would not require the replacement of the entire system - this too would depend on the exact construction of the floor/wall assembly though (we still need more information).

It may be awhile before I can get to the floor (3-4 months), but it's best to plan ahead. I'll have pictures by then.

If the floor is what I believe it may be (as described above) then it probably wasn't constructed with isolation in mind at all........ and if that is the case - it might be as easy as filling this with sand (to stop the floor movement) and moving on from there.

Doing some sandfill would be more welcome that building a whole new floor!

Thanks for the ideas, Rod. I'll see what I can do with them.

- Jax

[RichT]

Hey Jax,

Fancy bumping into you here

RIP Gearslutz chat

Just picking up ideas and tips for the new studio build.

Good luck with your floor.

Cheers,
Rich

[Jax]

Yo Rich!

Show us pics of your new place when you get a chance.

"Cheers!"

- Jax