Another small basement studio

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Another small basement studio

Post by hyperjed »

Hi folks,

I debated whether this belonged in the construction forum or the acoustics forum, but chose construction. Hopefully I chose correctly.

I’ve been reading this site for months trying to digest all that I can before I begin work on a small studio in my home. This is truly an amazing resource that you’ve created!

My goals for my studio are fairly simple. I want a space where I can mix, and where myself and one or (at most) two other people could come and record. The mixing and recording would all occur in the same (small) room. We tend to play mainly acoustic, and some low volume electric guitar/bass. I live in a very quiet neighborhood where sound coming into my basement isn’t really an issue.

Based on the playing style and the neighborhood, and for the practicality of the small space I have, I’m inclined to *not* try and create isolation from the rest of the house. I am, however, worried about acoustic absorption, and creating a space that sounds reasonably good for not too much money. This, of course, is why I’m writing to you!

The space I have to work with is in my basement, which is about 2/3 under ground. The foundation is 6-8” cement. The floor is poured concrete. The previous owner of the house framed in a small room in the basement which, as near as I can tell, was used as a very large cedar closet. (The whole thing was lined in cedar particle board and shelving. It smelled like a giant hamster cage.) I’ve removed everything from the framed walls in that small room down to the studs (2x4 timber). Because of a furnace and the resultant ducting outside this room, there isn’t really anymore space to work with, so expanding beyond this small room isn’t feasible.

The dimensions of the room (from the foundation, ignoring the framing) are as follows
16’ 9” long
8’ 1” wide (from foundation to the framed left wall)
6’ 10” high (from the concrete to the bottom of the rafters) (low ceiling!)

The dimensions of the room (measured from the outside of the framed studs) reduces the room to this:
16’ long
7’ 6” wide
6’ 10” high

The walls, of course, are pretty darn parallel. Here is an overhead view of the room (the grid is 1’ squares for scale):
Image

I’ve tried my best to do my homework, and this was my first guess at what I think I need to do to this space to make it have decent acoustics. Basically, I’m following John’s wall unit page (http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm) and filling in with corner, side, and rear absorbers. You will note that I am reluctant (out of laziness) to remove the framing:

Image

After completing this drawing I thought some more and came to the conclusion that maybe I could use the space behind the faming (on the right wall) or in between the studs (on the front and back walls) for better absorption by simply adding in some proper insulation there. That also led me to think that then I wouldn’t need quite such big absorbers, which really take a bite out of the useable space in such a small room.

In this second drawing I’m also accounting for a large table that I already own, and I’ve tried to figure out best placement of things using the room mode calculator and making drawings of the “non-null” areas that result from those graphs. The white space is the area I’m trying to leave open for recording purposes.
Image


My questions are as follows:

1. In general, is this a workable design?
2. On the left wall I am planning to do a *little* “isolation” work to try and block some furnace noise. My plan for that wall is simply 2 layers of sheetrock > studs/insulation > 2 layers sheetrock. I don’t expect this to be even close to perfect, only to cut down a little noise for those times when I absolutely can’t turn the furnace off. Will this work?
3. On the other 3 walls I’m open to suggestions for building techniques. Should I fill in fill in the space with mineral wool and cover in with cloth? Should I fill in it with pink stuff, sheetrock over it, and then leave the bulk of the absorption work to the absorbers I plan on building?
4. How many things am I not thinking of?

Thanks in advance for being such a great resource,

Jed Jorgensen
Portland, Oregon

P.S. That little brown square is a 6x6 beam that runs floor to ceiling.
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Update

Post by hyperjed »

Okay, so I’ve made a couple of changes from my initial post.

1. I’ve decided I *do* need to do a little isolation. This will be to try and stop sound from coming in where the cement foundation of the house meets the wood siding. [I walked into the basement this morning and thought, What The Heck?!? Is that a friggin crow that I hear down here?!] This occurs 4-5” below the bottom of the ceiling joists. There is approximately 8-9” of wood siding “exposed” (as opposed to concrete) if I measure all the way to the subfloor of the room upstairs.

My initial thought to deal with this is to attach many layers of drywall onto the siding and then to treat it just like any other wall -- ie. mass/air/mass. I'm wondering if I can do a reasonable job without building a big floor to ceiling wall. I was thinking of using the ceiling joists to support a frame which would act as the other leaf. I would suspect from all the other post on here that a lot of sound would travel through the joists (as they basically abut the siding). If I use RC can I get away with it?

2. I’ve decided I’m willing to extract the old framing of the front, back, and right walls. This is partly to deal with number 1 above, and partly because I’m realizing how freaking tiny my space is. I really think I need every inch. (The left wall still has to stay because the room can’t expand any farther in that direction.)

So, while I was in the mood tonight I downloaded SketchUp and gave it a whirl. It’s a pretty darn great program! And way better than doing drawings in Illustrator. I haven’t changed the overall design except for what I’ve tried to do around the upper foot of the ceiling to add isolation there.


Image


Which brings me to my new questions:

1. Is this still in the ballpark design wise?

2. Is my idea for treating just the upper part of the wall (for isolation) gonna fly?

3. What am I forgetting now?

Thanks,
Jed

P.s. The dimensions I'm using are now the first set that I described in my first post.
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

...and I messed up the photo

Post by hyperjed »

The giant broken link is supposed to be this picture.

Sorry. :oops:

I forgot to resize and then...well...it's the internet, things get messy.

Image
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

I ditched the huge link since you reposted the pic in smaller size; if you can regroup your questions, I'll see what I can come up with... Steve
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

a new stab at the questions

Post by hyperjed »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for all the help that you give out around here. I'm learning *tons* reading these posts.

Here are my questions again:

1. In general, is this a workable design? The subquestions are:

a. Are the number and size of the absorbers overkill for the size of the room? Underkill? (Is that word?)

b. Can I do the angled walls on just the left side to accommodate the big table I already own, or do I really need to find a solution where the monitors will end up equidistant from the walls?


2. I’m looking for help dealing with the upper 8-9” of the room where I’m working with the actual siding of the house as opposed to the cement foundation. I need to do some isolation there. I was thinking of adding sheetrock to the inside of the siding for extra mass. I can then think of several possible solutions, all of which seem to have upsides and downsides:

a. I can use the existing framing and use that as an additional leaf from which to perform isolation, or

b. Can I try to maximize space in the room by taking out the existing framing and doing a leaf at an angle that would intersect the ceiling joists and the cement foundation midway down the wall? The subquestion there is, if the leaf were to only be contacting the foundation where it is below ground, could I get “adequate” isolation? My guess would be "no" for low frequencies, but "yes" for high frequencies. My other guess is that I’m going to get sound (flanking?) from the ceiling joists too since they abut the siding (more or less)…

How’s that for starters…

Thanks!

Jed
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

1. In general, is this a workable design? The subquestions are:

a. Are the number and size of the absorbers overkill for the size of the room? Underkill? (Is that a word?)


For a small room, especially with a low ceiling, it's almost impossible to absorb too much- besides, if those saw-tooth thingy's are slats you'll not be absorbing much above maybe 300 or so, but still controlling flutter.

b. Can I do the angled walls on just the left side to accommodate the big table I already own, or do I really need to find a solution where the monitors will end up equidistant from the walls?

You really need a symmetrical mix position; whatever is done on one side should be also on the other. Otherwise you will never know what your stereo image REALLY sounds like.

http://www.moultonlabs.com/slides/smallrooms/index.htm

http://www.moultonlabs.com/slides/smallrooms/sld099.htm

2. I’m looking for help dealing with the upper 8-9” of the room where I’m working with the actual siding of the house as opposed to the cement foundation. I need to do some isolation there. I was thinking of adding sheetrock to the inside of the siding for extra mass. I can then think of several possible solutions, all of which seem to have upsides and downsides:



a. I can use the existing framing and use that as an additional leaf from which to perform isolation, or



b. Can I try to maximize space in the room by taking out the existing framing and doing a leaf at an angle that would intersect the ceiling joists and the cement foundation midway down the wall? The subquestion there is, if the leaf were to only be contacting the foundation where it is below ground, could I get “adequate” isolation? My guess would be "no" for low frequencies, but "yes" for high frequencies. My other guess is that I’m going to get sound (flanking?) from the ceiling joists too since they abut the siding (more or less)…

This part is tricky without knowing more; if you can possibly post a few pix showing what is already there, and/or a sketch of what you want to do on the angled wall/ceiling corner, it would help.

I noticed the stud frame inside concrete on your earlier drawing; are those studs in firm contact with the concrete along their lengths, or just at the ends?

Any pix, drawings, etc, you can provide... Steve
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Post by hyperjed »

I noticed the stud frame inside concrete on your earlier drawing; are those studs in firm contact with the concrete along their lengths, or just at the ends?

They only touch the cement at the ends. :D Also, I noticed that the ceiling joists don't touch the siding - there is about a 1/2" space there. :D

--
Here are some general photos that show what I'm working with. The first shows the siding at the space in between the joists that I am currently thinking of adding sheetrock to for mass. This is the front wall.
Image


This second photo shows the right wall. With this wall the framing is offset from the first joist about three inches. I would plan to add sheetrock all along the siding in this area as well.
Image


This drawing shows what the right wall looks like, minus the framing.
Image


Since the framing doesn’t touch the foundation except for at the bottom, my guess is that it’s probably easiest to use it to build a leaf for isolation. This also makes since in terms of preserving symmetry as you recommend.

So for the front and back walls my guess is that I should add sheetrock to the siding for mass, then fill the air space with a high density mineral wool, then do 2 layers of sheetrock of different thicknesses on the framed wall.

For the right wall it’s a little trickier since the framing is offset from the joist. This drawing shows how I would propose to deal with that: (the translucent stuff is supposed to be insulation)
Image

Though I haven't drawn it, I would plan on doing one to two layers of sheetrock on the ceiling as well.

If this seems like a workable isolation fix I’ll move on to start looking at symmetrical absorption designs…

Jed
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

You're guessing pretty good overall; however, I marked up one of your drawings to show a problem, and here's a link to the way you should do that wall instead -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=4316

Your ceiling joist cavities should also be insulated, a complete fill with slight compression (very slight) works best - cheapest good way here (if you don't have 2.5 pcf Roxul AFB or equivalent) can be just standard household fiberglass, but UN-faced - no paper, no foil, etc. - the difference would be only maybe 2-3 dB, and mostly only in upper frequency ranges.

HTH... Steve
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Post by hyperjed »

Of course! That makes perfect sense.

Thanks!
Jed
hyperjed
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Post by hyperjed »

Alright!

The sheetrock is almost all in against the exposed siding. Now I just need to fill in the gaps w/ acoustic caulk.

The other half of my basement is housing many bags of 3" Thermafiber SAFB. I pick up resilient channel for the ceiling tomorrow. I’m hopeful that I’ll be able to get most of the insulation in during the evenings this week. After that, it’ll be time to find out who my real friends are – you know, the ones who will help you install sheetrock…:twisted:

So, assuming I’m able to finish the rest of the wall/ceiling construction without any *major* hang-ups, my question turns to the interior design.

Here is my latest sketch for your perusal and wisdom. I didn't bother drawing in the walls that we've talked about earlier.

Image

I’ve tried to create angled walls, but I’m only getting about 4 degrees on each wall. From what I’ve read on here, that doesn’t sound like it’ll be enough (looks like 6-12 degrees is the average recommendation). My trouble has been getting enough angle without cutting too far into the soffits to make them ridiculously small.

Also, I did the Room Mode Calculator thing (green squares in the drawing), but I don’t know if it is right. I did it for the dimensions of the room as if there weren’t any absorbers or soffits… My gut says that shouldn’t work. Is my gut right??

Here are the main questions:

1. Can I live with 4 degree angle walls? If not, do you have a better design suggestion?

2. I’m sure I probably can’t have enough absorption, but is this looking about right?

Thanks!

Jed
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